First scholars' ranking rates Donald Trump as worst president ever
165 replies, posted
Wtf? The internment camps are unforgivable and indefensible.
I'm sorry to invoke Godwin but there may never have been a better time to use him - you might as well say "Hitler was a great German leader except for the whole Holocaust thing."
There's little mistakes that can be forgiven and then there's imprisoning loads of people based on their race alone. The latter should forever tarnish your reputation. The only reason it hasn't for FDR is we won the war and got to pick and choose what headlined the historical register on the homefront.
The internment was an awful unjustified action made out of wartime paranoia and xenophobia (wikipedia says germans and italians were also interred) edit: (I guess their xenophobia made them think immigrants and their descendants were untrustworthy, which justified the internment for them). The government apologized in 1980 and paid reparations to the internees, and I hope with the advent of the global internet something like it can never happen again. I'm sorry if I started this debate, I never wanted to stir up discord here :(
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53144162]Wtf? The internment camps are unforgivable and indefensible.
I'm sorry to invoke Godwin but there may never have been a better time to use him - you might as well say "Hitler was a great German leader except for the whole Holocaust thing."
There's little mistakes that can be forgiven and then there's imprisoning loads of people based on their race alone. The latter should forever tarnish your reputation. The only reason it hasn't for FDR is we won the war and got to pick and choose what headlined the historical register on the homefront.[/QUOTE]
It’s asinine that he gets praised in schools and in media. When Bernie started using FDR imagery in his campaign, I nearly dropped him. America shouldn’t forget what it’s done.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144153]Hi, FDR's internment of Japanese Americans was fucking awful.
FDR did a lot of good things but FDR's internment of Japanese American citizens was fucking awful.[/QUOTE]
Im honestly confused as to what your stance is then. Why even make the trump FDR comparison unless you're trying to downplay FDRs offenses?
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144166]Im honestly confused as to what your stance is then. Why even make the trump FDR comparison unless you're trying to downplay FDRs offenses?[/QUOTE]
I didn't? Or I wasn't the first.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144128]In many ways FDR held the country together while Trump uh seems to be actively pulling it apart.[/QUOTE]
[editline]19th February 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144167]I didn't? Or I wasn't the first.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144160]Why did you get into this argument if you already thought FDR was that bad??? It honestly seems like you're backpedalling to save face[/QUOTE]
Look at my first post.
I said a hyperbolic statement was hyperbolic.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144128]In many ways FDR held the country together while Trump uh seems to be actively pulling it apart.[/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with you that trump is fucking everything up and I see what you guys have said about FDR holding the country together and I believe that, but having an argument about whether or not the internment camps were justified seems odd to me. I mean you're not really in that argument, so I guess this is more directed to HumanAbyss. If we all agree it was horrible then what's the argument for?
That's why I'm saying this conversation is really weird, like I'm missing some behind the scenes stuff here.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144166]Im honestly confused as to what your stance is then. Why even make the trump FDR comparison unless you're trying to downplay FDRs offenses?[/QUOTE]
I'm the one who brought up trump first
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144173]Look at my first post.
I said a hyperbolic statement was hyperbolic.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I admit that it was somewhat hyperbolic in the first post. But it does not, in any way, detract from the points that I’ve put forward regarding the internment and the general whitewashing that comes with FDR
America rejected thousands of Jewish immigrants escaping the nazis while FDR was president. As someone of Jewish decent who had family members who died in the holocaust I think that's deplorable but in spite of that, I think FDR was a good president.
[editline]19th February 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144170][editline]19th February 2018[/editline][/QUOTE]
If someone else compares FDR to Trump am I not allowed to comment on that comparison?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144183]America rejected thousands of Jewish immigrants escaping the nazis while FDR was president. As someone of Jewish decent who had family members who died in the holocaust I think that's deplorable but in spite of that, I think FDR was a good president.[/QUOTE]
What exactly do you think he did that is so much greater then his myriad offenses as to make him a good president?
[QUOTE=PaChIrA;53144177]If we all agree it was horrible then what's the argument for?[/QUOTE]
The whole argument stems from the fact that Zilla made a really, really hyperbolic statement that FDR "hurt America more in the long run" through his actions which HumanAbyss pointed out as hyperbolic, which has started the whole argument that apparently HA is defending internment and is arguing that FDR was a perfect angel and never did anything wrong even though that's not what he's arguing at all.
Basically someone making a very hyperbolic statement, another user taking offense to it, and then everyone who has an issue with FDR taking that pointing out as defending everything that FDR did when that's not what they're doing.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144182]Okay, I admit that it was somewhat hyperbolic in the first post. But it does not, in any way, detract from the points that I’ve put forward regarding the internment and the general whitewashing that comes with FDR[/QUOTE]
Okay.
Thanks. We're good.
I think we all had a breakdown in communication here and I apologize if I contributed to it.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53143982]Tell that to survivors of the internment camps. Say that he was good with a straight face[/QUOTE]
Survivors? They gave them more than basic needs. You're treating it as if they were gassed. The internment camps were essentially segregation facilities.
These facilities were one of the most egregious violations of human rights in our country's history since slavery, but this country has done far, far worse both in the post-slavery era and especially during it.
If you want to talk about human atrocities in the post slavery era, look at Teddy's actual concentration camps in the Philippines where men, women, and children were killed, maimed, and raped.
I also find it ridiculous that you think Truman is some kind of better example when he dropped both nukes on those civilian cities.
[QUOTE=Sammyroc;53144191]The whole argument stems from the fact that Zilla made a really, really hyperbolic statement that FDR "hurt America more in the long run" through his actions which HumanAbyss pointed out as hyperbolic, which has started the whole argument that apparently HA is defending internment and is arguing that FDR was a perfect angel and never did anything wrong even though that's not what he's arguing at all.
Basically someone making a very hyperbolic statement, another user taking offense to it, and then everyone who has an issue with FDR taking that pointing out as defending everything that FDR did when that's not what they're doing.[/QUOTE]
Oh okay, I think I get it now, I was just really confused about why this argument was an argument :v:
Thanks amigo!
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144005]Inexcusable. Of course, most Americans tend not to care about the internment camps so this asinine response is to be expected.
“Oh but other guy did thing “ is not an excuse. The fuck is wrong with you.[/QUOTE]
You have to look at presidents in context or almost every single last one was terrible. How much of our nation's history has been defined by slavery? How many wars have we fought? What were the standards of the times?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;53144199]Survivors? They gave them more than basic needs. [/QUOTE]
You really don’t know what you’re talking about, do you.
Please tell me how letting people die without medical attention is basic needs. Please tell me how shoving dozens of people into a tiny living space is basic needs. Tell me how holding machine guns on children because they were playing to close to the wire is basic needs.
You jump to compare it to other atrocities as if it makes it less bad. It is indeed possible to criticize other acts. Also notice that I have addressed Truman’s use of nuclear weapons.
I dont really see how the nukes are a blackmark on Trumans presidency. Using the bomb was a geopolitical eventuality. They also arguably saved more lives in the long run by (in combination with the soviet invasion of Manchuria) forcing the Japanese to the peace table. Operation Downfall wouldve killed millions.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144196]Okay.
Thanks. We're good.[/QUOTE]
I think I flew off the handle and really shouldn’t have. I apologize.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;53144208]You have to look at presidents in context or almost every single last one was terrible. How much of our nation's history has been defined by slavery? How many wars have we fought? What were the standards of the times?[/QUOTE]
If we were to only judge past presidents by the standards of their time then we would have no bad presidents. Thats a really asinine line of reasoning.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;53144208] How much of our nation's history has been defined by slavery[/QUOTE]
Too much.
[quote]How many wars have we fought?[/quote]
Too many.
[quote]What were the standards of the times?
[/quote]
Not high enough.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144215]I think I flew off the handle and really shouldn’t have. I apologize.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, we're good.
We've probably all done that. I know I have.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144218]If we were to only judge past presidents by the standards of their time then we would have no bad presidents. Thats a really asinine line of reasoning.[/QUOTE]
I think it speaks volumes then that even in hindsight, even by contemporary standards, Trump's gonna go down as an awful president.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144213]I dont really see how the nukes are a blackmark on Trumans presidency. Using the bomb was a geopolitical eventuality. They also arguably saved more lives in the long run by (in combination with the soviet invasion of Manchuria) forcing the Japanese to the peace table. Operation Downfall wouldve killed millions.[/QUOTE]
Truman should be judged just as harshly for dropping the nuclear bombs as FDR was for interment.
[QUOTE=DeadWar;53144055]People treat Obama like the second coming of Christ when Obama never did a whole lot in his time, Mediocrity can best sum up his Presidency imo. Blaming others for his inactions doesn't really speak highly of him when you are supposed to be a countries leader. The real reason many of his supporters praise him is because he is black, which is just as racist as voting for someone because they are white. Colour coding your nations leaders does no favours in the end.
Bill Clinton was a better Democrat President because he had the power, wielded it effectively and got things done. Obama just blundered around lecturing people while leaders like Putin and Aung San Suu Kyi danced around him. He managed to screw up in Libya, Syria and Iraq and failed to put the screws on gun control. Bill Clinton by comparison managed to get Pakistan-India to back off, used military might to get China to see reason, stopped the Serbs from committing more atrocities with NATO and got assault weapons banned.
As far as I can see his most memorable actions include getting Osama bin laden [I would expect any American president to get him however], the affordable health care act and more LGBT rights.
[B]I am sure there is more to it than that but please enlighten me.[/B][/QUOTE]
Sure! Much of Obama's problems with being more or less a lame duck President is the fact that the Democrats lost control of Congress shortly into his first term and [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/us/politics/republicans-congress-trump-white-house.html"]Congressional Republicans then spent the rest of his two terms attempting to prevent him from accomplishing anything at all.[/URL]
[QUOTE]Democrats remain angry at how Republicans treated President Obama, including their refusal to consider the nomination of federal Judge Merrick B. Garland to the United States Supreme Court.
Democrats want payback for the cold shoulder given to Mr. Garland’s nomination to satisfy themselves and to show their supporters that they are not going to roll over for the new Republican government. While they cannot employ the filibuster to block most nominations, they still retain it for Supreme Court picks and legislation — at least for now.
Perhaps most important, Republicans themselves are going to need something of an attitude adjustment. [B]The contemporary Republican Party has been built out of fierce opposition to Mr. Obama and deep disdain for activist government. Nearly two-thirds of current House Republicans have never served with a Republican president and their entire time in Washington has been spent fighting the executive branch.[/B][/QUOTE]
[URL="https://thinkprogress.org/republican-congressman-30-or-40-birthers-are-driving-government-shutdown-ff94674b31d1/"]And are we just going to pretend that there weren't birthers [I]in Congress[/I] openly questioning the legitimacy of Obama's presidency based on an unfounded conspiracy theory about his birth certificate?[/URL]
So, yeah, there was more to it: A Congress with a publicly-stated goal of making sure the first black Presidency was a humiliating carnival of idleness.
And, amazingly, despite Republicans controlling both houses of Congress, the White House, and thanks to Congress ignoring Merrick Garland long enough to put Gorisch into place the Supreme Court as well, Trump is hands-down the most ineffective President in living memory. He was elected to drain the swamp but all he's done is rip apart a whole bunch of things Obama's name was attached to, sign a massive tax cut for the rich with a little bit of temporary sugar for the common man, and dismantle a whole bunch of regulations on his business buddies' industries. The government shut down on the one-year anniversary of his inauguration, ffs. :v:
He deserves to be at the bottom.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144225]Truman should be judged just as harshly for dropping the nuclear bombs as FDR was for interment.[/QUOTE]
I think it’s fair. There are actual arguments in the favor of nuclear weapons but I feel that’s another discussion entirely
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144225]Truman should be judged just as harshly for dropping the nuclear bombs as FDR was for interment.[/QUOTE]
I am holding him responsible for it. If we didnt do it then then we wouldve during downfall and if we did it during downfall we'd have dropped even more of them.
I'm assuming that when the word "great" is used, it's meant as "effective". Not as "a wonderful sort to hang out with".
Almost all world leaders and people of note throughout all of history have been repugnant psychopaths. A list of "historical world leaders who were great people" could fit on the back of a matchbox in large bold print.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;53144255]I'm assuming that when the word "great" is used, it's meant as "effective". Not as "a wonderful sort to hang out with".
Almost all world leaders and people of note throughout all of history have been repugnant psychopaths. A list of "historical world leaders who were great people" could fit on the back of a matchbox in large bold print.[/QUOTE]
I'll have you know alexander of macedonia was objectively pretty great.
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