First scholars' ranking rates Donald Trump as worst president ever
165 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;53145828]the ordering of the Trump & Obama presidencies is legitimately going to confuse american schoolkids in the future
that america seemed to take a great step forwards with electing a black president, only to elect a massive racist caricature of a self-interested businessman immediately afterwards, in defiance of all normal trends towards liberalism in the world[/QUOTE]
Maybe if you are Canadian, but even in West Europe, you are massively talking outta your arse on that last part, or perhaps you fell for the same mistake the Dems made over the last few years by overestimating said trend towards more liberalism. I get more the feeling that the Overton Window is shifting more and more towards the right, mostly due to the failures of left-wing governments in the past few years. Trump got elected against all the odds if we had to trust experts, but said experts completely missed how the Dems failed to campaign hard enough in the Rust Belt, and had a strategy that relied on having every minority group going for them, and then went on to completely miss two of them in crucial states (Cubans in Florida and Amish in Pennsylvania), and got utterly embarrassed on Election Night by managing to lose the entire Rust Belt and Florida and Pennsylvania due to being too overconfident in taking those states for granted. There is a damn good reason Trump campaigned like a madman in the last few weeks before the election, while Clinton made it a habit to let others do the work for her.
As for the rest of the world, let's first take a look at West Europe. All across Europe, the discontent with the EU is steadily growing, due to the last few years of constant mismanaging of urgent political crisises, and making some truly godawful deals as well. Eurosceptical parties across Europe are seeing more and more support lately. The FPO is in a coalition government with the OVP in Austria now. The AFD is on track to become Germany's second party after Schultz' SPD went into coalition against the wishes of many of his voters, doing a full 180 from his post-election promise of going into the opposition this time. This is despite the German media shouting that the AFD is the second coming of Hitler all the time. In the Netherlands, the classic Labor party, PvdA, lost 75% of their voterbase during the last elections, dropping them out of the government coalition, and making Geert Wilders' PVV the biggest opposition party at the moment. Thierry Baudet's FvD is the one to watch though, whose party has gotten more and more support ever since they got into the House of Representatives. Interestingly enough, even in the political media here, it has been undeniable to admit that the Overton Window has gotten significantly to the right, and that what used to be very controversial remarks about immigration three decades ago, are now not being seen as nearly as controversial anymore.
On to Eastern Europe, Poland does whatever the hell they want in their country, despite the EU threatening for the last two years that this month will surely be the last month that they refuse to take in illegal immigrants against the EU's orders and that sanctions are nearby. So far, I haven't seen the EU actually going through with those sanctions at all. Hungary is also being content with having a nice fence, despite the EU objecting to that Hungary is controlling its own borders.
In short, things are not nearly as expectable as they were a decade ago. I can't see into the future myself, but we are certainly in interesting times wherein the political balance of the world is obliviously shifting. To expect that things keep shifting to the left, is just short-sighted. Overconfidence seems especially now in politics the hardest way to fall. Goes both for the Dems in 2016, and in Great Britain the Tories in 2017. On Great Britain, next elections will probably be won by the party that fucks up the least, looking at the state of British politics.
[QUOTE=Jordax;53146412]Maybe if you are Canadian, but even in West Europe, you are massively talking outta your arse on that last part, or perhaps you fell for the same mistake the Dems made over the last few years by overestimating said trend towards more liberalism. I get more the feeling that the Overton Window is shifting more and more towards the right, mostly due to the failures of left-wing governments in the past few years. Trump got elected against all the odds if we had to trust experts, but said experts completely missed how the Dems failed to campaign hard enough in the Rust Belt, and had a strategy that relied on having every minority group going for them, and then went on to completely miss two of them in crucial states (Cubans in Florida and Amish in Pennsylvania), and got utterly embarrassed on Election Night by managing to lose the entire Rust Belt and Florida and Pennsylvania due to being too overconfident in taking those states for granted. There is a damn good reason Trump campaigned like a madman in the last few weeks before the election, while Clinton made it a habit to let others do the work for her.[/QUOTE]
Still showing a failure to understand polling. They didn't predict her win, she had a higher chance to win, her losing doens't change that she did have a higher chance. This is why statistics seems so hard for people. They fail to associate what did happen with what could happened correctly.
And yes, Clinton sucked, no ones going to really defend her but her political decisions wouldn't have caused so much global disruption.
[QUOTE]
As for the rest of the world, let's first take a look at West Europe. All across Europe, the discontent with the EU is steadily growing, due to the last few years of constant mismanaging of urgent political crisises, and making some truly godawful deals as well. Eurosceptical parties across Europe are seeing more and more support lately. The FPO is in a coalition government with the OVP in Austria now. The AFD is on track to become Germany's second party after Schultz' SPD went into coalition against the wishes of many of his voters, doing a full 180 from his post-election promise of going into the opposition this time. This is despite the German media shouting that the AFD is the second coming of Hitler all the time. In the Netherlands, the classic Labor party, PvdA, lost 75% of their voterbase during the last elections, dropping them out of the government coalition, and making Geert Wilders' PVV the biggest opposition party at the moment. Thierry Baudet's FvD is the one to watch though, whose party has gotten more and more support ever since they got into the House of Representatives. Interestingly enough, even in the political media here, it has been undeniable to admit that the Overton Window has gotten significantly to the right, and that what used to be very controversial remarks about immigration three decades ago, are now not being seen as nearly as controversial anymore.[/QUOTE]
The left sure isn't doing as good at propaganda and the like, that's right.
[QUOTE]In short, things are not nearly as expectable as they were a decade ago. I can't see into the future myself, but we are certainly in interesting times wherein the political balance of the world is obliviously shifting. To expect that things keep shifting to the left, is just short-sighted. Overconfidence seems especially now in politics the hardest way to fall. Goes both for the Dems in 2016, and in Great Britain the Tories in 2017. On Great Britain, next elections will probably be won by the party that fucks up the least, looking at the state of British politics.[/QUOTE]
What exactly are the various different "Right" groups campaigning for? Anti-immigration policies and a national identity?
I can see them doing better than we'd like in the coming years but I think you're also going to see a divide grow, rather than your supposition that the right is just going to grow. Both will grow, and pretty quickly two groups who think each other are literally the devil will be in charge of everything and nothing will get done.
I genuinely feel like the right wants to increase the divide just to make people mad and empower itself through blind anger.
[QUOTE=Jordax;53146412] I get more the feeling that the Overton Window is shifting more and more towards the right, mostly due to the failures of left-wing governments in the past few years. [/QUOTE]
You're right about the overton window shifting more and more to the right but has nothing to do with the "failures of left-wing governments" and I think it's hilarious to even consider it a left wing problem when you have two governments that swung massively right in the past couple of years, the US and the UK, being in utter disarray and dysfunction.
[QUOTE=Jordax;53146412]Trump got elected against all the odds if we had to trust experts, but said experts completely missed how[/QUOTE]
Most of the top rated pollsters put Trump's chances within 2 to 4 points behind Clinton on the eve of the election. With margins of errors of 2% to 3%, I'd say they were pretty damn on the money. Not to mention what HumanAbyss said. Even if you gave someone a 25% chance to win and they still won, that doesn't mean the math was off.
[QUOTE=Jordax;53146412]Maybe if you are Canadian, but even in West Europe, you are massively talking outta your arse on that last part, or perhaps you fell for the same mistake the Dems made over the last few years by overestimating said trend towards more liberalism. I get more the feeling that the Overton Window is shifting more and more towards the right, mostly due to the failures of left-wing governments in the past few years. Trump got elected against all the odds if we had to trust experts, but said experts completely missed how the Dems failed to campaign hard enough in the Rust Belt, and had a strategy that relied on having every minority group going for them, and then went on to completely miss two of them in crucial states (Cubans in Florida and Amish in Pennsylvania), and got utterly embarrassed on Election Night by managing to lose the entire Rust Belt and [B]Florida and Pennsylvania due to being too overconfident in taking those states for granted[/b]. There is a damn good reason Trump campaigned like a madman in the last few weeks before the election, while Clinton made it a habit to let others do the work for her.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, Clinton's campaign strategy wasn't optimal (as in explained in the [url=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-had-a-superior-electoral-college-strategy/]article[/url] the following table is from), but here you're just talking out your ass:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/wZD60HE.png[/IMG]
Clinton held less rallies than Trump, but Florida and Pennsylvania is literally where she spent most of her time.
I guess if right wing governments haven't failed then George Bush going to war on a complete lie was completely intentional. Katrina was also all part of the plan, not a fuckup at all.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144088]I’d say that it was a hideous act of massed murder that achieved nothing. Much like how I view the atomic bombs, which were just so horrendous that it forced Japan to surrender. It gets no praise from me.[/QUOTE]
I mean, generally EVERY act of war is a hideous act of massed murder sanctioned by some state or another.
The thing with war is it's always ugly. Especially in WWII. Back then cities weren't just bombed, they were [I]leveled[/I]. Indiscriminately. From thousands of feet above the ground, by bombers, mass-produced in factories to most effectively drop thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of tons of ordinance over a huge area just to ensure you got that ball-bearing plant in the middle of town.
Granted, the difference is that typically in war, you don't lock up your own citizenry as they're invaluable to your efforts to commit war. But the catalyst for this which we have to realize is that, all things considered, America was, in general (with obvious exceptions), incredibly racist at the time. How racist? About [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dodger]this racist.[/url]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;53146560]You're right about the overton window shifting more and more to the right but has nothing to do with the "failures of left-wing governments" and I think it's hilarious to even consider it a left wing problem when you have two governments that swung massively right in the past couple of years, the US and the UK, being in utter disarray and dysfunction.[/QUOTE]
dysfunction [I]and[/I] significant election losses. ALMOST as if these trends represent generalized discontent rather than any specific worldwide failure, real or imagined
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;53145828]the ordering of the Trump & Obama presidencies is legitimately going to confuse american schoolkids in the future
that america seemed to take a great step forwards with electing a black president, only to elect a massive racist caricature of a self-interested businessman immediately afterwards, in defiance of all normal trends towards liberalism in the world[/QUOTE]
50 years from now, hopefully schools across the country will be allowed to just tell the truth: "a bunch of people were butthurt that a black man got to be president, so they voted in someone who was just as racist as them. Thankfully people like that don't have any power in this country anymore"
This is obviously the optimistic take, considering that the country's school systems have yet to even come to a unanimous agreement that we should teach our kids that slavery was wrong. (Thanks, Texas)
[QUOTE=Cone;53146958]dysfunction [I]and[/I] significant election losses.[/QUOTE]could almost call it an elective dysfunction.
Bumping this thread because FiveThirtyEight wrote a piece today with their take on this ranking.
[url]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/presidential-ratings-are-flawed-which-makes-it-hard-to-assess-trump/[/url]
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;53179707]Bumping this thread because FiveThirtyEight wrote a piece today with their take on this ranking.
[url]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/presidential-ratings-are-flawed-which-makes-it-hard-to-assess-trump/[/url][/QUOTE]
[Quote]And slave ownership doesn’t seem to get any consideration: Two of the consistent “greats,” Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, owned human beings.[/quote]
This article is acting like historical context and deviation from the mean don't matter; only the absolute actions. Which is stupid. That would be like saying that MLK didn't fight for equality because he had sermons against homosexuality.
[QUOTE=phygon;53182170]This article is acting like historical context and deviation from the mean don't matter; only the absolute actions. Which is stupid. That would be like saying that MLK didn't fight for equality because he had sermons against homosexuality.[/QUOTE]
If you made the rankings based solely on 2018 standards, then everyone before the 2000s would get tarnished rankings, with them going down the further back you go.
I really don't think we need scholars or official rankings to tell us this. By [I]any[/I] time's standards, the orange buffoon has proved himself utterly unfit for office.
[QUOTE=IKTM;53182580]I really don't think we need scholars or official rankings to tell us this. By [I]any[/I] time's standards, the orange buffoon has proved himself utterly unfit for office.[/QUOTE]
More than one historical president could be argued to be unfit, or to have had a bad influence on the country.
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