[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;23609866]Japan was weak, very weak, yes. But they were preparing for a last grand defensive, having stockpiled the remaining fuel and planes and spreading them across the home islands to hide them until they could be used as suicide bombers. They were arming citizens, they were reinforcing the current garrisons as they could and had even begun to ferry troops from Korea to Japan in preparation for a US invasion. These among many other things. Hell, even after the bombings a large portion of the Japanese still wanted to continue the war and attempted to overthrow the emperor, but it wasn't successful.
The deaths that would have resulted from a invasion of the home islands would have doubled, even tripled the death toll from the nuclear bombings.
[editline]03:38AM[/editline]
Japan would fall, but not with ease.[/QUOTE]
Japan was also trying to surrender, the bombs were unnecessary.
[editline]09:09PM[/editline]
also, shouldn't NK have fired them already?
japan wasn't trying to surrender lol
[url]http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/surrender.htm[/url]
This is basic fucking history.
I don't think this will end well.
ironic maybe but i was listening to this when i saw the thread
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Chb_cUAtm4&videos=glpF7vf7lTY[/media]
[QUOTE=Warhol;23622638][url]http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/surrender.htm[/url]
This is basic fucking history.[/QUOTE]
You realize that link disagrees with you, yes?
[QUOTE]No direct communication occurred with the United States about peace talks[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]From these intercepts, the United States learned that [B]some [/B]within the Japanese government advocated outright surrender.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]From the replies these diplomats received from Tokyo, the United States learned that anything Japan might agree to would not be a surrender so much as a "negotiated peace" involving numerous conditions.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is basic history.
As for North Korea, they probably realize they'd be crushed in any actual war they started, but as the militaristic gap widens as NK technology becomes outdated and more and more soldiers defect and starve, they also probably realize that if they don't attack soon, they'll lose more and more of an advantage. A country with nothing to lose isn't a good thing.
[QUOTE=Mikesword221;23620673]I think there all gone. Though if any more come I'll get a pic.[/QUOTE]
you dont want to fake us out during this shitstorm,would you?
I'm sure we're missing something really important here, guys. Like a missile.
shouldn't we be dead by now?
[QUOTE=shatteredwindow;23623308]shouldn't we be dead by now?[/QUOTE]
Not yet.
[QUOTE=Morcam;23623068]You realize that link disagrees with you, yes?
Yes, it is basic history.[/quote]
A: This is true, the Japanese had difficulty getting through Soviet channels, which is the main reason why the surrender didn't work. and when they DID go through, the US ignored it.
B: Hirohito was part of this, people like Tojo were not. It was a split that led to a lot of infighting.
C: This is regarding the Potsdam declaration, which McCarthy didn't agree with because it destoryed the Japanese royalty, something very important in Japanese culture. Turns out surrender attempt #3, the successful one, basically did the same exact fucking thing the second Japanese attempt called for. When Japan surrendered, the US basically let them have their requests from earlier. Only now, thousands of people lay dead in two smoldering cities.
[quote]As for North Korea, they probably realize they'd be crushed in any actual war they started, but as the militaristic gap widens as NK technology becomes outdated and more and more soldiers defect and starve, they also probably realize that if they don't attack soon, they'll lose more and more of an advantage. A country with nothing to lose isn't a good thing.[/QUOTE]
They aren't stupid, they know if they use any aggression, they're going to lose. They have EVERYTHING to lose ie: the entire country and its future.
[QUOTE=MacD11;23623165]you dont want to fake us out during this shitstorm,would you?[/QUOTE]
Well I don't think they had anything to do with the nukes since I'm in South Carolina. Though they were heading towards the pacific.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23623566]A: This is true, the Japanese had difficulty getting through Soviet channels, which is the main reason why the surrender didn't work. and when they DID go through, the US ignored it.
B: Hirohito was part of this, people like Tojo were not. It was a split that led to a lot of infighting.
C: This is regarding the Potsdam declaration, which McCarthy didn't agree with because it destoryed the Japanese royalty, something very important in Japanese culture. Turns out surrender attempt #3, the successful one, basically did the same exact fucking thing the second Japanese attempt called for. When Japan surrendered, the US basically let them have their requests from earlier. Only now, thousands of people lay dead in two smoldering cities.[/QUOTE]
Except the proposals earlier on were not actually supported by the majority of the Japanese government, and the U.S. policy was for unconditional surrender. The initial Japanese proposals also did not include the possibilities of prosecution of Japanese war criminals, disarmament, and the removal of the Emperor. The only condition in the final treaty was that of making the Emperor a puppet. The initial Japanese proposals were for him to retain his power.
Basically, the Japanese were proposing peace, yes, but with many unreasonable conditions. The only real treaty actually acceptable to the majority of the Japanese government was that of a cease-fire, which was obviously unacceptable to the Allied forces.
[QUOTE]They aren't stupid, they know if they use any aggression, they're going to lose. They have EVERYTHING to lose ie: the entire country and its future.[/QUOTE]
That's rather close to what I said. The implied point that I was trying to make was that the few at the top in NK probably don't care much about the country, and if they ever actually want to attack again, sooner is better than later.
[QUOTE=Morcam;23624167]Except the proposals earlier on were not actually supported by the majority of the Japanese government, and the U.S. policy was for unconditional surrender. The initial Japanese proposals also did not include the possibilities of prosecution of Japanese war criminals, disarmament, and the removal of the Emperor. The only condition in the final treaty was that of making the Emperor a puppet. The initial Japanese proposals were for him to retain his power.[/quote]
uh, no, not at all. The Emperor has BEEN a puppet since the Meiji Restoration, even before hand the emperor had little power.
I can't find any evidence that warcrimes would go without prosecution.
[quote]Basically, the Japanese were proposing peace, yes, but with many unreasonable conditions. The only real treaty actually acceptable to the majority of the Japanese government was that of a cease-fire, which was obviously unacceptable to the Allied forces.[/quote]
Then that is the fault of the Allied forces.
[quote]That's rather close to what I said. The implied point that I was trying to make was that the few at the top in NK probably don't care much about the country, and if they ever actually want to attack again, sooner is better than later.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure Kim Jong Il doesn't want to die or is willing to die so his country can never recover.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23624339]
Then that is the fault of the Allied forces.
[/QUOTE]
The losing side doesn't get to have it their way. The winning side does.
And after pearl harbor it was completely acceptable for the allied forces to ask for japans military to be stripped down as part of their terms.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23624339]Then that is the fault of the Allied forces.[/QUOTE]
I hope you're aware what a ceasefire means. Japan would have kept all the territory in China it had already captured, and it would be free to rebuild and attack again.
[QUOTE]I'm pretty sure Kim Jong Il doesn't want to die or is willing to die so his country can never recover.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure Kim Jong Il is a sociopath, which is fairly obvious if you look at how he treats his citizens. Couldn't say I'd put it past him.
So 2,000 soldiers being killed means it's justified to slaughter 350,000 innocent civilians.
[editline]11:32PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Morcam;23624614]I hope you're aware what a ceasefire means. Japan would have kept all the territory in China it had already captured, and it would be free to rebuild and attack again.[/quote]
Japans navy was on its last threads and the army was exhausted. They weren't blood thirsty savages that if you leave them alone for a few minutes, they'll destroy every fucking thing possible. They were imperialists, and their mode of imperialism was completely exhausted.
[quote]I'm pretty sure Kim Jong Il is a sociopath, which is fairly obvious if you look at how he treats his citizens. Couldn't say I'd put it past him.[/QUOTE]
He isn't really the leader, he's just a man-child that reaps the benefits. He HAS an oligarchy, they make the decisions. They're evil as fuck but they're not stupid.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23624696]So 2,000 soldiers being killed means it's justified to slaughter 350,000 innocent civilians.[/QUOTE]
You seem to forget about Japan's involvement in the Rape of Nanjing, 80,000 women and children were raped and tortured. And hundreds of thousands of other civilians killed on sight, bodies mutilated and all.
[QUOTE=Hallucinate;23614295]I like the naive response from some earlier posters that the U.S defense system is without flaw and that it could defend every missle attack, get over yourself, there's no way of knowing for sure if one will hit or not, but it's probable that if the stockpile of NK's weapons was large enough, that some would manage to strike American soil.
You're also ignoring the fact that the U.S AND U.K are currently in a war in the middle east which will in all likelyhood, stress out the U.S military force if a new enemy rears its head. Don't make the stupid mistake of assuming that because America has a large nuclear stockpile that it is somehow impenetrable to attack, it's just as vulnerable as other nations and these threats should be taken seriously.[/QUOTE]
If someone actually attacked either the UK or US soil, we would instantly start bringing our army back to fight in a different area.
Are they trying to dig their own grave?
I would say so. I mean they don't even have one ally, do they?
[QUOTE=Sodisna;23625155]I would say so. I mean they don't even have one ally, do they?[/QUOTE]
All they have is countries like iran who just give them a pat on the back only for the sake of being against the USA. They don't have any allies who would go to the war with the USA for defending themselves against NK. The whole "omg world war 3" idiocy in this thread is just hilarious.
Part of me thinks "eh, just another meaningless threat", but another part of me thinks "what happens if this time it is for real?".
[QUOTE=Warhol;23621196]Japan was also trying to surrender, the bombs were unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
If they were trying to surrender, why were they flying planes into ships?
[QUOTE=ExplodingGuy;23624798]You seem to forget about Japan's involvement in the Rape of Nanjing, 80,000 women and children were raped and tortured. And hundreds of thousands of other civilians killed on sight, bodies mutilated and all.[/QUOTE]
He was talking about Pearl Harbour.
even then, two wrongs don't make a right.
I've just come into this thread. Why are we talking about World War Two? I was hoping to share my fear of nuclear annihilation with like minded people :ohdear:
I told you nothing will happen. And never will.
[QUOTE=Cpt. Private;23625338]I told you nothing will happen. And never will.[/QUOTE]
Another man thought as you do. He was called Neville Chamberlain.
How long does this exercise last, just one day?
[QUOTE=Warhol;23624696]So 2,000 soldiers being killed means it's justified to slaughter 350,000 innocent civilians.[/QUOTE]
It's justified to slaughter 350,000 innocent civilians if the alternative is to slaughter millions of innocent civilians.
[QUOTE]Japans navy was on its last threads and the army was exhausted. They weren't blood thirsty savages that if you leave them alone for a few minutes, they'll destroy every fucking thing possible. They were imperialists, and their mode of imperialism was completely exhausted.[/QUOTE]
Uh, they had obtained massive amounts of eastern China, and a ceasefire would have allowed them to continue to rebuild their armies quite rapidly, which the U.S. would have had to continue to match. Look at North Korea today. It's fairly obvious that the ceasefire in the Korean War was quite counter-productive. Look at Japan today. It's fairly obvious that the unconditional surrender was immensely successful.
[QUOTE]He isn't really the leader, he's just a man-child that reaps the benefits. He HAS an oligarchy, they make the decisions. They're evil as fuck but they're not stupid.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so the oligarchy and Kim Jong Il consists of sociopaths.
they were exhausted and weak at that point, there wasn't much imperialism of rebuilding they could do in a short period of time.
North Korea also didn't try to surrender when they knew
The Japanese surrender was in response the potsdam declaration, which was entirely unfair and would cripple Japan. Even then, the Japanese proposal using the Soviet lines wasn't even finalised. The Americans didn't want to talk to them or even acknowledge them. How do you know what they wanted if they never had talks.
[QUOTE=Mikesword221;23623745]Well I don't think they had anything to do with the nukes since I'm in South Carolina. Though they were heading towards the pacific.[/QUOTE]
Nice,you made me scared for my life,thanks.
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