[QUOTE=Warhol;23655007]I said TWO times, i didn't agree with either. I said the Japanese were using Soviet channel to organise a surrender, i was saying they should have spoken to the Japanese and organised peacetalks.[/QUOTE]
Can you provide some evidence for this? Say, the transcripts of the said "peacetalks"? Then, I'll believe you.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655007]Of course they didn't LIKE it. Churchill didn't particularly like FDR, but they were still the official allied powers.
[editline]04:18AM[/editline]
jesus christ, you're either illiterate or retarded.
I said TWO times, i didn't agree with either. I said the Japanese were using Soviet channel to organise a surrender, i was saying they should have spoken to the Japanese and organised peacetalks.
and what the fuck do you mean "says the guy"?
I'm providing evidence, something you should have learned in Grammar school, that the Soviet Union was part of the 4 major OFFICIAL Allied powers.
[editline]04:19AM[/editline]
you're either a troll, or insane[/QUOTE]
You keep insisting peace was an option here. You realize the population of Japan didn't want to surrender, right
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655114]you are literally a child[/QUOTE]
You are literally an elitist prick
[editline]08:26PM[/editline]
I assume you guys told him that if they didn't bomb them they'd invade China and kill millions of innocents in the fight.
I also assume he thought that was a lie.
There were no peacetalks, a bunch of the Japanese hierarchy were trying to use Soviet channels to organise a surrender.
Also, on the Soviet Union being in the allies, I see it more as a nation temporarily allying themselves with the allies. I mean, 5 years later they enter the Korean war against SK and the US, and after that they went onto have the cold war. Technically, they were in the Allies, but in the end it was just temporary against a greater threat
[QUOTE=Tetracycline;23655145]You are literally an elitist prick
[editline]08:26PM[/editline]
I assume you guys told him that if they didn't bomb them they'd invade China and kill millions of innocents in the fight.
I also assume he thought that was a lie.[/QUOTE]
A: there is no evidence they were planning on this
B: their navy was 1- distracted with the US and 2- decimated
C: the military was weakened, exhausted and scattered.
[editline]04:30AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ThePutty;23655189]Also, on the Soviet Union being in the allies, I see it more as a nation temporarily allying themselves with the allies. I mean, 5 years later they enter the Korean war against SK and the US, and after that they went onto have the cold war. Technically, they were in the Allies, but in the end it was just temporary against a greater threat[/QUOTE]
That's entirely irrelevant.
Temporary or not, The US and the UK didn't know 5 years later that was going to happen and the Soviet Union at the time was an official part of the Allied powers "big 3"
[editline]04:30AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ThePutty;23655125]You keep insisting peace was an option here. You realize the population of Japan didn't want to surrender, right[/QUOTE]
source?
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655222]A: there is no evidence they were planning on this
B: their navy was 1- distracted with the US and 2- decimated
C: the military was weakened, exhausted and scattered.[/QUOTE]
D: The population and the emperor were willing to fight to the death in honour, regardless of whether the country was down the shitter
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655222]A: there is no evidence they were planning on this
B: their navy was 1- distracted with the US and 2- decimated
C: the military was weakened, exhausted and scattered.
[editline]04:30AM[/editline]
That's entirely irrelevant.
Temporary or not, The US and the UK didn't know 5 years later that was going to happen and the Soviet Union at the time was an official part of the Allied powers "big 3"
[editline]04:30AM[/editline]
source?[/QUOTE]
That's what I was taught somewhere at some point, so I dunno
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655222]
Temporary or not, The US and the UK didn't know 5 years later that was going to happen and the Soviet Union at the time was an official part of the Allied powers "big 3"[/QUOTE]
They still didn't trust them at the time, but whatever, my mistake
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655185]There were no peacetalks, a bunch of the Japanese hierarchy were trying to use Soviet channels to organise a surrender.[/QUOTE]
Can you post or re-post proof of this please?
[QUOTE=ThePutty;23655251]D: The population and the emperor were willing to fight to the death in honour, regardless of whether the country was down the shitter[/QUOTE]
The emperor was willing to surrender
The prime minister on the other hand was not. There was a massive split in the government about this.
You also have to take into account the Imperial Japanese government was massive, it was a neo-military right wing government. The military had a massive say in politics.
[editline]04:36AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ThePutty;23655275]They still didn't trust them at the time, but whatever, my mistake[/QUOTE]
Of course they didn't trust them, you're right about that, but the grand scheme of things, it's irrelevant.
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;23655282]Can you post or re-post proof of this please?[/QUOTE]
this
So how bout that north korea
[QUOTE=Sift;23655966]So how bout that north korea[/QUOTE]
All this waiting and they really dropped the bomb on us.
[QUOTE]I said the Japanese were using Soviet channel to organise a surrender, i was saying they should have spoken to the Japanese and organised peacetalks. [/quote]
How about sourcing that?
Good thing Japan and China are ready to beat NK to a pulp if they so much as launch a damned bottle rocket.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23656245]How about sourcing that?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html[/url]
[quote]
By mid-June, six members of Japan's Supreme War Council had secretly charged Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo with the task of approaching Soviet Russia's leaders "with a view to terminating the war if possible by September." On June 22 the Emperor called a meeting of the Supreme War Council, which included the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, and the leading military figures. "We have heard enough of this determination of yours to fight to the last soldiers," said Emperor Hirohito. "We wish that you, leaders of Japan, will strive now to study the ways and the means to conclude the war. In doing so, try not to be bound by the decisions you have made in the past."
By early July the US had intercepted messages from Togo to the Japanese ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato, showing that the Emperor himself was taking a personal hand in the peace effort, and had directed that the Soviet Union be asked to help end the war. US officials also knew that the key obstacle to ending the war was American insistence on "unconditional surrender," a demand that precluded any negotiations. The Japanese were willing to accept nearly everything, except turning over their semi-divine Emperor.
On July 12, Hirohito summoned Fumimaro Konoye, who had served as prime minister in 1940-41. Explaining that "it will be necessary to terminate the war without delay," the Emperor said that he wished Konoye to secure peace with the Americans and British through the Soviets. As Prince Konoye later recalled, the Emperor instructed him "to secure peace at any price, notwithstanding its severity."[/quote]
Had this laying in my bookmarks, figured I'd post it.
Basically, Japan wanted the USSR to press the allies to abandon their ideal of unconditional surrender as Japan's nationalism made it adverse to the inevitable foreign dominance of unconditional surrender.
[QUOTE=Conscript;23657361][url]http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html[/url]
Had this laying in my bookmarks, figured I'd post it.[/QUOTE]
IHR isn't a reliable source in my opinion. Got another one?
[QUOTE=ohadje;23657373]IHR isn't a reliable source in my opinion. Got another one?[/QUOTE]
Why don't you like it?
[url]http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/33694/why_did_japan_delay_surrender_to_the_pg2.html?cat=37[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union[/url]
The infighting and appeal to the soviets is documented.
Technically the soviet union was in the comintern. While they did assist the allies near the end of the war they were not part of the allies.
[QUOTE]Why don't you like it?[/quote]
It denies the Holocaust and promotes ideas of Jewish conspiracy.
[QUOTE=Epic Lul;23657487]Technically the soviet union was in the comintern. While they did assist the allies near the end of the war they were not part of the allies.[/QUOTE]
The comintern was dissolved in 1943 in show of solidarity with the western allies.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23657508]It denies the Holocaust and promotes ideas of Jewish conspiracy.[/QUOTE]
Source where it denies actually denies the holocaust and talks about jewish conspiracies, not opposition's accusations preferably.
Regardless, and I understand how you would be offended if they did, I don't see how it has anything to do with their analysis of japan at the end of the war. Different historians work on different parts of history. The article also sources quotes by historians not affiliated with the IHR offering their view on the subject.
[quote]Source where it denies actually denies the holocaust and talks about jewish conspiracies, not opposition's accusations preferably.[/quote]
Well they don't say the Holocaust didn't happen, but from what I remember from the last time I read one of their article about the Holocaust, they claim that 3 million Jews have died. Look it up. Regarding Jewish conspiracy - it's just the general theme.
[QUOTE]
Regardless, and I understand how you would be offended if they did, I don't see how it has anything to do with their analysis of japan at the end of the war. Different historians work on different parts of history.[/QUOTE]
If someone lies systematically about X, I won't find them reliable when they claim something about Y.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23655114]you are literally a child[/QUOTE]
Says the child
:v:
Why I do not trust that source:
[QUOTE]By early July the US had intercepted messages from Togo to the Japanese ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato, showing that the Emperor himself was taking a personal hand in the peace effort, and had directed that the Soviet Union be asked to help end the war. US officials also knew that the key obstacle to ending the war was American insistence on "unconditional surrender," a demand that precluded any negotiations. [b]The Japanese were willing to accept nearly everything[/b], except turning over their semi-divine Emperor.[/QUOTE]
Why did they not contact the U.S.? If they did, why did we not accept the surrender?
[QUOTE=ohadje;23657622]Well they don't say the Holocaust didn't happen, but from what I remember from the last time I read one of their article about the Holocaust, they claim that 3 million Jews have died. Look it up. Regarding Jewish conspiracy - it's just the general theme. [/quote]
I wouldn't know if its the general theme or not, I don't read many of their articles. Still, disputing numbers is a far cry from holocaust denial.
Maybe it's just that I'm no fan of mainstream academics because of the commonly espoused claims about soviet history (robert conquest anyone?), but I don't readily accept everything coming from western historians.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23657622]If someone lies systematically about X, I won't find them reliable when they claim something about Y.[/QUOTE]
It's not one person, or a political party. I don't think IHR is as homogeneous as you believe.
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;23657675]
Why did they not contact the U.S.? If they did, why did we not accept the surrender?[/QUOTE]
Because the USSR wasn't in any way affiliated with the potsdam declaration, unlike the US.
[QUOTE=Conscript;23657725]Because the USSR wasn't in any way affiliated with the potsdam declaration, unlike the US.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but [b][i]why did they not contact the U.S. with surrender terms if they were so eager?[/i][/b]
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;23657786]Yes, but [b][i]why did they not contact the U.S. with surrender terms if they were so eager?[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
Do you know what the potsdam declaration is? The whole point of it was to [b][i]not[/i][/b] accept any surrender terms.
[editline]02:39AM[/editline]
How did this thread go from north korea's claims of 'we'll beat you up' to discussions on history of late-war japan?
[QUOTE]
How did this thread go from north korea's claims of 'we'll beat you up' to discussions on history of late-war japan?[/QUOTE]
I think it's warhol's fault.
Oh and on-topic:
NK sux
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