Valve fined $3 million AUS for refusing refunds and misleading customers - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573718]because chips that are eaten are digested in stomach acid and passed thru your rectum. a video game sits on the shelf[/QUOTE] Not a digital game. A digital game is consumed when you play it, you can't take it back and have it be resold. It just ends up being a digital copy that was given away for free.

[QUOTE=simkas;51573738]Not a digital game. A digital game is consumed when you play it, you can't take it back and have it be resold. It just ends up being a digital copy that was given away for free.[/QUOTE] All a company would do is void that particular licence to disable access to it.

[QUOTE=simkas;51573738]Not a digital game. A digital game is consumed when you play it, you can't take it back and have it be resold. It just ends up being a digital copy that was given away for free.[/QUOTE] a digital game isnt consumed when its played because i can uninstall it, reinstall, switch computers and still play it. it still sits on a shelf--a digital shelf.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573765]a digital game isnt consumed when its played because i can uninstall it, reinstall, switch computers and still play it. it still sits on a shelf--a digital shelf.[/QUOTE] Except that it can't then be taken from that shelf and given to someone else. So it has been consumed in a way.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573765]a digital game isnt consumed when its played because i can uninstall it, reinstall, switch computers and still play it. it still sits on a shelf--a digital shelf.[/QUOTE] well if its not consumed why should it follow under consumer protection laws?

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573718] i guess we r gonna have to agree to disagree.[/QUOTE] fair enough i mean there's no real point in pushing it further when clearly you're set in your ways.. i just don't get how you can justify purchasing a form of entertainment that you enjoy for more than 2 hours and just deciding you don't want to pay for the experience that you've already enjoyed, it just seems like an incredibly selfish disregard for the developer of the game would you take your smartphone back and expect a 100% full refund when they release the newest edition? would you use a monitor for a few years and expect a 100% full refund when you buy another one? there are so many products in life that you have no use for a few years after you've purchased it but there's no way you'd expect a full refund on them and i really don't see why a video game you enjoyed (remember, they literally let you give the game back for full price for 2 hours/2 weeks which can already be abused) should be treated any differently

[QUOTE=simkas;51573738]Not a digital game. A digital game is consumed when you play it, you can't take it back and have it be resold. It just ends up being a digital copy that was given away for free.[/QUOTE] and its not given away for free. disable the serial key. they have the tools necessary to generate new ones on the fly. theres no phsyical waste involved in this process even. they lose out on the money, and the consumer loses out on access to the game. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=simkas;51573767]Except that it can't then be taken from that shelf and given to someone else. So it has been consumed in a way.[/QUOTE] because of a restriction placed on that particular action by the developer. i can take a physical copy of a game and give it to somebody for them to play. the developer chose to put that restriction in place to control how i use the product im supposedly buying. if im buying a game, i should be able to give it away to somebody else if i want to.

[QUOTE=DatHarry;51573712]just because the people refunding a game they've spent their money on, enjoyed and THEN requested their money back didn't literally bankrupt the company doesn't mean their actions were justified or should be facilitated[/QUOTE] But the goal isn't to make it easier for people to play stuff for free, it's to make it possible for people to refund games that don't work or engaged in false advertisement such as NMS. I could say the exact same thing as you, just because some people will take advantage of it doesn't mean they shouldn't allow people to exercise their rights as a consumer as per the law when it comes to refunding pieces of shit.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573772]and its not given away for free. disable the serial key. they have the tools necessary to generate new ones on the fly. theres no phsyical waste involved in this process even. they lose out on the money, and the consumer loses out on access to the game.[/QUOTE] Yeah but you already played the game. Owning the game isn't the consuming part, the experience you got when playing it is consuming it. And you already got that experience when you then request the refund, which means you end up not having paid at all for that experience. Hence, you played the game for free. Which is bullshit in every way.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573765]a digital game isnt consumed when its played because i can uninstall it, reinstall, switch computers and still play it. it still sits on a shelf--a digital shelf.[/QUOTE] By that logic: - I buy/rent a movie online - Watches it - Refund

[QUOTE=DatHarry;51573771]fair enough i mean there's no real point in pushing it further when clearly you're set in your ways.. i just don't get how you can justify purchasing a form of entertainment that you enjoy for more than 2 hours and just deciding you don't want to pay for the experience that you've already enjoyed, it just seems like an incredibly selfish disregard for the developer of the game would you take your smartphone back and expect a 100% full refund when they release the newest edition? would you use a monitor for a few years and expect a 100% full refund when you buy another one? there are so many products in life that you have no use for a few years after you've purchased it but there's no way you'd expect a full refund on them and i really don't see why a video game you enjoyed (remember, they literally let you give the game back for full price for 2 hours/2 weeks which can already be abused) should be treated any differently[/QUOTE] i didnt mention anything about full refunds, im talking about refunds in gneral. i can buy a fancy new iphone, and then next year trade it in for what i owe left on it and have that go towards a new model. i cant do anything like that with a game. only rarely do developers decide to give owners of previous entries discounts on the newest entry.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51573784]But the goal isn't to make it easier for people to play stuff for free, it's to make it possible for people to refund games that don't work or engaged in false advertisement such as NMS. I could say the exact same thing as you, just because some people will take advantage of it doesn't mean they shouldn't allow people to exercise their rights as a consumer as per the law.[/QUOTE] If a system is in place to in theory help people, but then can be taken advantage by others, it shouldn't exist. If anything, it would hurt Australians in the long run. What company is going to want to publish their game in Australia on Steam if they know full well that a bunch of people will just play it for free? [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573789]i didnt mention anything about full refunds, im talking about refunds in gneral. i can buy a fancy new iphone, and then next year trade it in for what i owe left on it and have that go towards a new model. i cant do anything like that with a game. only rarely do developers decide to give owners of previous entries discounts on the newest entry.[/QUOTE] Yeah, you're [i]trading in[/i] the phone, meaning that you're giving back the item, which can then be used in some way or sold to someone else. That doesn't happen with games, if you refund a game, that copy of the game is completely gone.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51573784]But the goal isn't to make it easier for people to play stuff for free, it's to make it possible for people to refund games that don't work or engaged in false advertisement such as NMS. I could say the exact same thing as you, just because some people will take advantage of it doesn't mean they shouldn't allow people to exercise their rights as a consumer as per the law.[/QUOTE] i'm only disagreeing with Nautsabes opinion that you should be able to refund a game whenever the fuck you want, i absolutely agree that valve should be way more open to refunding products in the event that they don't work, aren't as advertised or for some reason aren't good

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573789]i didnt mention anything about full refunds, im talking about refunds in gneral. i can buy a fancy new iphone, and then next year trade it in for what i owe left on it and have that go towards a new model. i cant do anything like that with a game. only rarely do developers decide to give owners of previous entries discounts on the newest entry.[/QUOTE] you just made a point to separate digital products from physical ones and your defense here is that a physical product can get some money back?

[QUOTE=Nak;51573787]By that logic: - I buy/rent a movie online - Watches it - Refund[/QUOTE] yeah? idk what ur getting at here. i can already return movies ive watched to the store, hell i did it just last week. i bought hateful 8 and returned it because it was alright but not something i wanted to keep in my collection.

[QUOTE=DatHarry;51573804]i'm only disagreeing with Nautsabes opinion that you should be able to refund a game whenever the fuck you want, i absolutely agree that valve should be way more open to refunding products in the event that they don't work, aren't as advertised or for some reason aren't good[/QUOTE] they have allowed refunds without time requirements for games that have been abhorrent

[QUOTE=simkas;51573793]If a system is in place to in theory help people, but then can be taken advantage by others, it shouldn't exist. If anything, it would hurt Australians in the long run. What company is going to want to publish their game in Australia on Steam if they know full well that a bunch of people will just play it for free?[/QUOTE] If a system is in place to help people, and by and large does, and a few people take advantage of it, it shouldn't exist? What is this nonsense? Would you say any form of social security shouldn't exist just because a few people take advantage of it? Even though it greatly helps a lot of people? By that logic basically nothing should exist.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573809]yeah? idk what ur getting at here. i can already return movies ive watched to the store, hell i did it just last week. i bought hateful 8 and returned it because it was alright but not something i wanted to keep in my collection.[/QUOTE] Then you're an asshole. There's a reason movie rentals exist. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;51573814]If a system is in place to help people, and by and large does, and a few people take advantage of it, it shouldn't exist? What is this nonsense? Would you say any form of social security shouldn't exist just because a few people take advantage of it? Even though it greatly helps a lot of people? By that logic basically nothing should exist.[/QUOTE] Yeah there's kind of a pretty big difference between social security and refunding video games. And plus, taking advantage of stuff like social security in ways that aren't intended is largely illegal. You can't really do that with stuff like game refunds.

[QUOTE=simkas;51573793] Yeah, you're [i]trading in[/i] the phone, meaning that you're giving back the item, which can then be used in some way or sold to someone else. That doesn't happen with games, if you refund a game, that copy of the game is completely gone.[/QUOTE] but it doesnt have to be that way thats what im getting at. theres nothing stopping developers from being able to revoke serial keys and reselling them. the distinction between a physical game and a digital one in terms of how they can be treated is arbritary.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573823]but it doesnt have to be that way thats what im getting at. theres nothing stopping developers from being able to revoke serial keys and reselling them. the distinction between a physical game and a digital one in terms of how they can be treated is arbritary.[/QUOTE] except if you resell an iphone apple already got their 100% profit, you refunding a game means they got their profit taken from them how is this hard to understand

[QUOTE=Map in a box;51573808]you just made a point to separate digital products from physical ones and your defense here is that a physical product can get some money back?[/QUOTE] my point with what u quoted was that while u can go into a phone store and trade up to the newest entry, covering only the difference, you cant do that with digital video games-but u can with physical video games.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573833]my point with what u quoted was that while u can go into a phone store and trade up to the newest entry, covering only the difference, you cant do that with digital video games-but u can with physical video games.[/QUOTE] but we're not talking about physical games now are we

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573823]but it doesnt have to be that way thats what im getting at. theres nothing stopping developers from being able to revoke serial keys and reselling them. the distinction between a physical game and a digital one in terms of how they can be treated is arbritary.[/QUOTE] That doesn't matter. No one is talking about the cost of cd keys or physical copies or whatever. Games are entirely experience based, the experience is what you're paying for. The cd key or physical disc and box of a game are just a fraction of the game cost, if any. The experience of wearing clothes isn't the thing you're paying for when you buy clothes, the cost is made up entirely out of the parts and work that went into making that piece of clothing.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;51573827]except if you resell an iphone apple already got their 100% profit, you refunding a game means they got their profit taken from them how is this hard to understand[/QUOTE] its not hard to uinderstand. when a dev sells keys direct to a consumer and the consumer refunds, the dev loses out on the money just as the consumer loses out on the game. i dont think the consumer "experiencing" the game before refunding it is an issue. you gotta "experience" the game in order to judge it.

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573858]its not hard to uinderstand. when a dev sells keys direct to a consumer and the consumer refunds, the dev loses out on the money just as the consumer loses out on the game. i dont think the consumer "experiencing" the game before refunding it is an issue. you gotta "experience" the game in order to judge it.[/QUOTE] No, the consumer doesn't lose out on the game. They already played the game, they've experienced it, that IS the game, they're not losing out on that. Comparing games to physical objects like that would only make sense if when you refunded the game, the memory of you playing the game would also get erased out of your brain somehow.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;51573834]but we're not talking about physical games now are we[/QUOTE] im talking about game refunds in general. if i buy a game on xbox, and i can refund it, then i should be able to refund the pc copy of that game as well, regardless of whether or not the game is in physical or digital format. thats my whole fucking point.

lol nautsabes you are a thief stop trying to dress it up you can't pay for an irrevocable service, accept the service, then demand your money back for the service the guy giving the service has to make a living and get paid, he can't take the experience he gave you out of your skull and transfer it to someone else. you are benefiting from watching the film/playing the game and doing it for free. you gave him your money for his service, then took the money back and kept the service. the fact that you feel so entitled to be able to do this is pretty gross to be honest

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51573893]lol nautsabes you are a thief stop trying to dress it up you can't pay for an irrevocable service, accept the service, then demand your money back for the service the guy giving the service has to make a living and get paid[/QUOTE] u got me

[QUOTE=simkas;51573817]Yeah there's kind of a pretty big difference between social security and refunding video games.[/quote] "Those two things you're comparing are different" isn't an argument. Of course they're different, that's the point of a comparison. What matters is what they have in common and why it works as an analogy. Social security and consumers' rights have different levels of importance but the importance of the system plays no part in your argument, thus pointing it out doesn't make my counterpoint invalid. [Quote]And plus, taking advantage of stuff like social security in ways that aren't intended is largely illegal. You can't really do that with stuff like game refunds.[/QUOTE] While illegal in principle it isn't systematically prosecuted. The end result is the same, either way people do it and get away with it, if that's not an argument against social security why should it be an argument against refunds?

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51573874]im talking about game refunds in general. if i buy a game on xbox, and i can refund it, then i should be able to refund the pc copy of that game as well, regardless of whether or not the game is in physical or digital format. thats my whole fucking point.[/QUOTE] A game can be compared to a movie/e-book. Most of them got an interactive story/game-play. There have to be drawn a line, as a game is a form of experience. Since you want to talk about physical things, let me try and explain it simply: [QUOTE] A) - You're at a restaurant and order a burger. - Its really bad food - You stop after the first bite and get a refund for the meal. (like the 2 hour limit) B) - You're at a restaurant and order a burger. - Its really bad food - You eat everything on the plate and then ask for a refund. (Finishing the game and then refund) [/QUOTE] What is fair?