Valve fined $3 million AUS for refusing refunds and misleading customers - Polidicks

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574149]But they wouldn't have had the money they got from you if you hadn't bought the game in the first place.[/QUOTE] this is quite the deflection you can't refund a game without buying it what the hell

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574163]Money which they wouldn't have had if the people who refund hadn't bought the game to begin with. There's no distribution costs that leaves them worse off than if they hadn't sold them the game in the first place.[/QUOTE] Theres production costs, you know. Its often quite expensive, how do they make that up then? People gotta eat. Imagine getting your check, then a dude comes and takes it from you. God i hope you never work in anything involving transactions.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;51574164]you can't refund a game without buying it what the hell[/QUOTE] Yes and? The point is that people buying and then refunding a game doesn't cost any more money to the devs than them not buying it at all. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=AaronM202;51574172]Theres production costs, you know. Its often quite expensive, how do they make that up then? People gotta eat. Imagine getting your check, then a dude comes and takes it from you. God i hope you never work in anything involving transactions.[/QUOTE] Fucking hell do I have to reexplain it all over again? The production costs don't scale with the amount of people who play the game. Ironic that you would hope I don't work on anything involving transactions when you can't even understand this simple point.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574180]Yes and? The point is that people buying and then refunding a game doesn't cost any more money to the devs than them not buying it at all.[/QUOTE] Yes thats exactly the fucking point. How are they supposed to make money? How are they supposed to make a profit? How do they recoup development costs? Advertisement costs? Pay the employees? Keep the company running? [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;51574180] Fucking hell do I have to reexplain it all over again? The production costs don't scale with the amount of people who play the game. Ironic that you would hope I don't work on anything involving transactions when you can't even understand this simple point.[/QUOTE] You dont seem to understand that people have limited amounts of money and if they cant make a profit on a project they might be fucked.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574149]But they wouldn't have had the money they got from you if you hadn't bought the game in the first place.[/QUOTE] Yeah. But you did buy the game and played it and you experienced it. You got the game, you consumed the game and the developers got jack shit from it. You got a free game and fucked over the developers in the process.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51574195]Yes thats exactly the fucking point. How are they supposed to make money? How are they supposed to make a profit? How do they recoup development costs? Advertisement costs? Pay the employees? Keep the company running? [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] You dont seem to understand that people have limited amounts of money and if they cant make a profit on a project they might be fucked.[/QUOTE] With sales? Hence why I labeled people who buy then refund a game as "lost potential sale". People who buy then refund don't contribute to sales. If a company sells a bag of chips and then the consumer refunds it after eating it, they've lost whatever money they spent on producing those chips. If the consumer returns the bag without opening it, they can still sell it to someone else, they can still recoup the cost of producing the chips. That's a lost potential sale.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574220]With sales? Hence why I labeled people who buy then refund a game as "lost potential sale". People who buy then refund don't contribute to sales. If a company sells a bag of chips and then the consumer refunds it after eating it, they've lost whatever money they spent on producing those chips. If the consumer returns the bag without opening it, they can still sell it to someone else, they can still recoup the cost of producing the chips. That's a lost potential sale.[/QUOTE] So what if EVERYONE who plays that game plays it and then refunds it? A bunch of people played the game and the developers got no money from it. That's totally not fucking the developers in the ass, right?

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574220]With sales? Hence why I labeled people who buy then refund a game as "lost potential sale". People who buy then refund don't contribute to sales. If a company sells a bag of chips and then the consumer refunds it after eating it, they've lost whatever money they spent on producing those chips. If the consumer returns the bag without opening it, they can still sell it to someone else, they can still recoup the cost of producing the chips. That's a lost potential sale.[/QUOTE] But if you can play the whole game and refund it, do you realize how many people will do that? Jesus how in the world can you entertain the idea of this being a system that would in any way work. Hundreds of indie developers and small publishers would be beyond fucked.

The devs aren't spending the money to amuse themselves you idiot, they spent the money to create the product they're selling you so they can make a profit, pay for living expenses and create more products. When you take back money you already gave them, they are [B]losing money[/B]. You bought their game, played it, liked it, but decided you're entitled to whatever you want for free, so you exploited a good faith system to get your money back. That is ethically fucked and it is theft by definition.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574220]With sales? Hence why I labeled people who buy then refund a game as "lost potential sale". People who buy then refund don't contribute to sales. If a company sells a bag of chips and then the consumer refunds it after eating it, they've lost whatever money they spent on producing those chips. If the consumer returns the bag without opening it, they can still sell it to someone else, they can still recoup the cost of producing the chips. That's a lost potential sale.[/QUOTE] except in the case of physical goods since you seem to be unaware, the store buys the product in bulk and the manufacturer has made their money. the manufacturer doesn't make each bag individually, they make several bags at the same time. there's your "fixed cost" you seem to be so fixated over.

How the hell is a developer supposed to keep making games if they release a game, get a bunch of money out of it and then spend all of that money towards making a new game and then everyone suddenly refunds the game? Now they suddenly have to give back a bunch of money that they don't have.

[QUOTE=simkas;51574218]Yeah. But you did buy the game and played it and you experienced it. You got the game, you consumed the game and the developers got jack shit from it. You got a free game and fucked over the developers in the process.[/QUOTE] Yeah that harms developers in the same way piracy does, through lost potential sales that would've have happened if piracy didn't exist/the refund policy wasn't in place.

Shit dude i used to do it all the time when Gamestop had that >1 week full refund policy, i'd get a game, beat it in under a week, return it and buy a new game. Imagine that in a scenario in which you dont sell physical copies to retailers, but sell it directly, meaning the refunds has to come out of your pocket and not a retailers, i guarantee you a stupidly large amount of people would do it because why wouldnt they? RIP all indie devs and publishers not named Activision, EA, Capcom, Ubisoft, Square, Konami, etc. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;51574242]Yeah that harms developers in the same way piracy does, through lost potential sales that would've have happened if piracy didn't exist/the refund policy wasn't in place.[/QUOTE] ITS NOT LOST POTENTIAL SALES. They BOUGHT IT. That money WENT TO THEM. Then they have to GIVE THAT MONEY BACK.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574242]Yeah that harms developers in the same way piracy does, through lost potential sales that would've have happened if piracy didn't exist/the refund policy wasn't in place.[/QUOTE] No it fucking doesn't. When a developer releases a game, they look at how many copies they've sold, how much money that got them and then uses that to plan the budget for their next game. How the fuck are they supposed to plan when suddenly half of that money is gone because a bunch of people got refunds?

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574242]Yeah that harms developers in the same way piracy does, through lost potential sales that would've have happened if piracy didn't exist/the refund policy wasn't in place.[/QUOTE] Except it's worse than piracy because you gave them the money, they've already budgeted for having it/invested it/spent it, and then you came and demanded it back, causing them to actually lose money they thought they had. Piracy is bad but excusable in certain circumstances, e.g. if you absolutely cannot afford the game and never were going to buy it there's technically no harm done by you pirating it, but if you can afford a service you enjoy you should pay for it to allow the provider to continue providing the service.

[QUOTE=simkas;51574233]So what if EVERYONE who plays that game plays it and then refunds it? A bunch of people played the game and the developers got no money from it. That's totally not fucking the developers in the ass, right?[/QUOTE] And where am I saying people who play the game, enjoy it, finish it, and then refund it aren't fucking the developers in the ass? I'm just saying they're not harming the developers by making them lose money, they're harming them by preventing sales that would've had happened had the refund policy not existed.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574259]And where am I saying people who play the game, enjoy it, finish it, and then refund it aren't fucking the developers in the ass? I'm just saying they're not harming the developers by making them lose money, they're harming them by preventing sales that would've had happened had the refund policy not existed.[/QUOTE] Except [b]IT IS[/b] harming the developers because they're not making a profit. They lose money because they cant recoup development and advertisement costs, they cant pay their employees, they'll go under because of it.

Alright I hadn't thought of the budgeting part, it would have been better to bring that up first thought instead of making analogies with edible wares.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574259]And where am I saying people who play the game, enjoy it, finish it, and then refund it aren't fucking the developers in the ass? I'm just saying they're not harming the developers by making them lose money, they're harming them by preventing sales that would've had happened had the refund policy not existed.[/QUOTE] I don't know how the fuck you think any industry works, but when a company sells a product, they don't then just sit on that money that they got and do nothing with it. That money goes directly into the production process right away. If a bunch of that money suddenly goes missing, that is ACTIVELY hurting them

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51574264]Except [b]IT IS[/b] harming the developers because they're not making a profit. They lose money because they cant recoup development and advertisement costs, they cant pay their employees, they'll go under because of it.[/QUOTE] Where did I say they didn't harm the developers? Read the post again.

In fact, doing refunds like that would actually hurt developers A LOT more than piracy does. At least with piracy, that money never came into their hands so they're not planning for it when budgeting their next project.

Go back to putting hammer and sickle stickers on the iphone daddy bought you, you have zero concept of business or world sense at all

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574274]Where did I say they didn't harm the developers? Read the post again.[/QUOTE] [quote]I'm just saying they're not harming the developers[/quote] Hmmmm

[QUOTE=Map in a box;51574239]except in the case of physical goods since you seem to be unaware, the store buys the product in bulk and the manufacturer has made their money. the manufacturer doesn't make each bag individually, they make several bags at the same time. there's your "fixed cost" you seem to be so fixated over.[/QUOTE] Sure but then it's the retailer who loses out.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574282]Sure but then it's the retailer who loses out.[/QUOTE] Yeah except y'know that doesnt work in digital because there is no second hand retailer.

[QUOTE=simkas;51574280]Hmmmm[/QUOTE] Are you trolling? [Quote]I'm just saying they're not harming the developers by making them lose money, they're harming them by preventing sales that would've had happened had the refund policy not existed.[/quote] Read the whole fucking sentence next time. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;51574278]Go back to putting hammer and sickle stickers on the iphone daddy bought you, you have zero concept of business or world sense at all[/QUOTE] I conceded I didn't think of devs budgeting right away after sales, what the fuck more do you want? But yeah nice zinger dude.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574290]Are you trolling? Read the whole fucking sentence next time.[/QUOTE] That's still hurting the devs.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574282]Sure but then it's the retailer who loses out.[/QUOTE] Depends on the agreement between supplier and retailer. I know at least Wal-Mart puts the burden of refunds on the suppliers and manufacturers.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574290] I conceded I didn't think of devs budgeting right away after sales, what the fuck more do you want? But yeah nice zinger dude.[/QUOTE] Perhaps admitting that it directly hurts devs by also preventing them from making money to begin with by giving and then taking money away from them, not "lost sales". Because they're not lost sales. Its sold, then the money is taken back. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Blade Rx69;51574309]Depends on the agreement between supplier and retailer. I know at least Wal-Mart puts the burden of refunds on the suppliers and manufacturers.[/QUOTE] IIRC Steam does this too, the developers have to issue the refunds. Im alright with it as is currently because it'll make certain people think twice about releasing a shit port (Arkham Knight for example), but in this scenario it'd be terrible.

[QUOTE=simkas;51574308]That's still hurting the devs.[/QUOTE] Yeah and I'm saying that right in the sentence you failed to read. [editline]23rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=AaronM202;51574314]Perhaps admitting that it directly hurts devs by also preventing them from making money to begin with by giving and then taking money away from them, not "lost sales". Because they're not lost sales. Its sold, then the money is taken back.[/QUOTE] I already admitted that, if you didn't see it.