Valve fined $3 million AUS for refusing refunds and misleading customers - Polidicks

[QUOTE=BF;51580763]Half of this court case was determining whether Valve was carrying on business in Australia (as opposed to it being considered that Australians were taking their business to America), and the court found that Valve were in fact carrying on business in Australia, partly due to some investments by Valve over here (servers based in Australia), and partly because they cater specifically for Australian consumers in certain ways (eg regional pricing). So no, they can't refuse to pay. Even just the fact that Valve sought legal representation in this court case here in Australia is enough to suggest that Valve are indeed carrying on a business in Australia. Not to mention that Valve [i]offered[/i] to pay a fine of several hundred thousand $ (but this $3 million figure was put before the court by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission).[/QUOTE] They shouldn't have to. This whole case is bullshit because Australians are entitled to refund things for ANY reason whatsoever.

[QUOTE=space1;51580828]They shouldn't have to. This whole case is bullshit because Australians are entitled to refund things for ANY reason whatsoever.[/QUOTE] I've already talked about this, a few posts above. We are [i]not[/i] allowed to refund anything for any reason whatsoever: [quote]Pretty much, refunds under the Australian Consumer Law aren't about the product meeting your expectations, they are about meeting a reasonable person's expectations: - If a product had misleading or deceptive advertising (like No Man's Sky), the product would therefore not meet a reasonable person's expectations, and a refund would be allowed. - If a product was of a quality which a reasonable person would not find appropriate (eg the plethora of issues which plagued Arkham Knight for PC on release), a refund would be allowed. - If the consumer didn't like the game because of their personal tastes, or if they finished a cheap indie game in only a few hours (as a reasonable person may expect of such a game), the Australian Consumer Law would not guarantee the right to a refund.[/quote] If would be absolutely fabulous if I could refund anything that I wanted to, but no, I can't do that. Australia isn't the fantasy land that you're suggesting. If we could refund anything, then how has Australia managed to build a $1.6 trillion GDP?

[QUOTE=Nak;51573787]By that logic: - I buy/rent a movie online - Watches it - Refund[/QUOTE] The best part about this is that because you dont really own the games you buy (the lisence them), it means that the argument for refunding regardless gets a lot more support. If they dont even want to give us real ownership then why not say fuck them and demand they allow people to refund until they establish that we do actually own it at any point in time.

americans sure do love the concept of freedom until they realise other countries have it better than them

[QUOTE=_Axel;51579872]If a tabletop game's rules takes hours to learn but it's a blast once you know how to play it, do you say it's shit too?[/QUOTE] If it takes someone 25 hours to explain a tabletop game to me I'll be like "forget it, let's just play Monopoly instead" as shit as Monopoly is.

[QUOTE=simkas;51575427]Not for 25 hours they haven't. I'm pretty sure everyone has better things to do than playing 25 hours of a game that they're completely not enjoying.[/QUOTE] honestly for me, I've never had this problem until cod infinite warfare I played it for a while (around 50 hours) and kinda enjoyed it, but I also expected patches and updates and shit, but the first pc patch didn't happen until the game was out for almost a fucking month after the game was released, and recent patches have been weeks late as well. I didn't expect this and it ruined my opinion of the game.

[QUOTE=Drury;51581329]If it takes someone 25 hours to explain a tabletop game to me I'll be like "forget it, let's just play Monopoly instead" as shit as Monopoly is.[/QUOTE] Yeah people have different tastes in games, it's not really a question of good or bad design.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51581814]Yeah people have different tastes in games, it's not really a question of good or bad design.[/QUOTE] Like Dwarf Fortress! I need to find that comic on it...

[QUOTE=_Axel;51581814]Yeah people have different tastes in games, it's not really a question of good or bad design.[/QUOTE] It is bad design when you have to sift through 25 hours of nothing to get something. As subjective as this all is, nobody's gonna do that and be satisfied with their purchase afterward.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51578600]If a game takes 25 hours to get good its a shit game.[/QUOTE] pretty sure dwarf fortress is a pretty good game my dude

[QUOTE=Nak;51573908]A game can be compared to a movie/e-book. Most of them got an interactive story/game-play. There have to be drawn a line, as a game is a form of experience. Since you want to talk about physical things, let me try and explain it simply: What is fair?[/QUOTE] Here's my experience with Valves refund service [quote] I'm at a restaurant, I take 30 minutes to start eating my food because I'm chatting to my friend, I then spend another 20 minutes after asking if they have any sauce to fix the broken burger I paid for Halfway thru my burger I realise there's bugs inside it that stop me from completing the burger, I mean I could - but why should I, I paid money for a good product and got a burger full of bugs I ask for a refund and show them the bugs, after 2 weeks they finally get back to be and refuse to give me my money back because I spent an arbitrary amount of time trying to fix the burger[/quote] GoG lets me refund my game at any time if I can prove it was broken and they even have support that try to help you fix it, they're really good at it too and don't take weeks to respond to my tickets, why can't valve?

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51584830]Reading some of the replies in this thread, I feel [I]really[/I] bad for smaller companies trying to make a living making movies / video games or anything of that sort. Imagine spending months if not years of your time while spilling blood, sweat and tears over a product, then having people decide they're just not gonna pay for it and refund it even after they've already watched / played it. Refunds are in order if the product you receive does not work and/or is blatantly falsely advertised, not because you just don't feel like paying. Some people are just fucked in the head[/QUOTE] You know, that is completely Valve's fault for having a refund policy where you can refund any game with under two hours of playtime, and if you purchased it less than two weeks ago. Refunds under the Australian Consumer Law are only about guaranteeing consumers the right to a refund if the product has false or misleading advertising, or is of a quality which a reasonable person would not find acceptable. I don't know why, but somehow [i]a lot of other people[/i] in this thread have somehow confused this ruling with Australians being able to refund whatever they want for whatever reason. Like what the fuck. I live in Australia, and I know that I can't do that.

[QUOTE=Drury;51584582]It is bad design when you have to sift through 25 hours of nothing to get something. As subjective as this all is, nobody's gonna do that and be satisfied with their purchase afterward.[/QUOTE] Once again, this is a plain statement, not an argument. Examples of games that people play and enjoy which get some time before it gets good have been provided in the thread already. You can say that you don't like this kind of game but not that nobody does.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51584884]Once again, this is a plain statement, not an argument. Examples of games that people play and enjoy which get some time before it gets good have been provided in the thread already. You can say that you don't like this kind of game but not that nobody does.[/QUOTE] I mean if we go by that then there is no such thing as a bad game because surely there exists at least one person out there who'll enjoy it. I mean, yes, [i]but come the fuck on[/i].

[QUOTE=Drury;51584923]I mean if we go by that then there is no such thing as a bad game because surely there exists at least one person out there who'll enjoy it. I mean, yes, [i]but come the fuck on[/i].[/QUOTE] Well there are niche communities which enjoy the games in question, such as X or Dwarf Fortress. I'm not sure there are communities of people who unironically enjoy Bad Rats.

you people are stupid, you can walk into a store and steal a game if you want. nobody is stopping you from doing that. how many people actually play a game and refund it? 1/10000? probably less, because not everyone is a bad person. and the thing is they're not even GUARANTEED a refund. you have the right to ask for one, but if you don't have a valid reason (game doesn't run on your computer, game too broken to play, false advertising) you're not going to get a refund. do you people think australia is a place where EVERYONE buys stuff from the stores and then refunds it? there is literally nothing to be paranoid about. some people are not nice, they refund games after playing them. that tiny amount of people isn't going to bankrupt indie developers. here's a dumbed-down explanation for the americans: "people shouldn't be allowed guns because some people kill other people" "but it's my right" "people shouldn't be allowed refunds because some people might scam indie developers" "but it's my right"

[QUOTE=mchapra;51584847]pretty sure dwarf fortress is a pretty good game my dude[/QUOTE] You misunderstand, my point is that if its enjoyable but gets really good at the 25 hour mark, sure thats fine, but if its a SLOG to go through and you have to be told to keep going with the promise it'll get good, its bad. [editline]26th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zelpa;51584954]you people are stupid, you can walk into a store and steal a game if you want. nobody is stopping you from doing that. how many people actually play a game and refund it? 1/10000? probably less, because not everyone is a bad person. and the thing is they're not even GUARANTEED a refund. you have the right to ask for one, but if you don't have a valid reason (game doesn't run on your computer, game too broken to play, false advertising) you're not going to get a refund. do you people think australia is a place where EVERYONE buys stuff from the stores and then refunds it? there is literally nothing to be paranoid about. some people are not nice, they refund games after playing them. that tiny amount of people isn't going to bankrupt indie developers. here's a dumbed-down explanation for the americans: "people shouldn't be allowed guns because some people kill other people" "but it's my right" "people shouldn't be allowed refunds because some people might scam indie developers" "but it's my right"[/QUOTE] I think people (myself included) were confused about the exact wording and nature of this and assumed it was an overall "everything can be refunded at any time" thing instead of a justified refunding thing.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51585735]You misunderstand, my point is that if its enjoyable but gets really good at the 25 hour mark, sure thats fine, but if its a SLOG to go through and you have to be told to keep going with the promise it'll get good, its bad. [editline]26th December 2016[/editline] I think people (myself included) were confused about the exact wording and nature of this and assumed it was an overall "everything can be refunded at any time" thing instead of a justified refunding thing.[/QUOTE] australia may be a lawless wasteland but we don't let people refund stuff with no justification :v:

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51585735]You misunderstand, my point is that if its enjoyable but gets really good at the 25 hour mark, sure thats fine, but if its a SLOG to go through and you have to be told to keep going with the promise it'll get good, its bad. [editline]26th December 2016[/editline] I think people (myself included) were confused about the exact wording and nature of this and assumed it was an overall "everything can be refunded at any time" thing instead of a justified refunding thing.[/QUOTE] as time has shown people have abused valves current system and there have been people in this thread who provide further (albeit anecdotal) evidence that this will be ran into the ground.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51574220]With sales? Hence why I labeled people who buy then refund a game as "lost potential sale". People who buy then refund don't contribute to sales. If a company sells a bag of chips and then the consumer refunds it after eating it, they've lost whatever money they spent on producing those chips. If the consumer returns the bag without opening it, they can still sell it to someone else, they can still recoup the cost of producing the chips. That's a lost potential sale.[/QUOTE] You seem to be under the impression that [b]everyone who would buy-and-refund would never have purchased the game in the first place[/b] which is fucking ridiculous. With this new system, [b]vast amounts of people[/b] would buy-and-refund whereas before many of them would have simply purchased the game. This way of thinking is so unimaginably delusional.