North Korea closes only communication channel with US and gets real serious - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Riller;50698859]Because we don't care about them all that much; and we certainly don't a-million-dollars-per-person care. Yep, they deserve better. But they ain't gonna get it, it's not worth it to the rest of us. Simpler, easier, cheaper and probably more stable to just keep North Korea as North Korea.[/QUOTE] And this doesn't even get into the minefield of determining another nations peoples fate for them, without them involved. It's not really our place to determine the governments of other peoples.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50698935]And this doesn't even get into the minefield of determining another nations peoples fate for them, without them involved. It's not really our place to determine the governments of other peoples.[/QUOTE] Who is we? Because it certainly hasn't stopped some from determining the governments of others.

North Korea is the ultimate clusterfuck in humanitarian crisis. Think about your worst african shit hole. Now elevate it to the power of 10. There you go. No solution whatsoever. All of the people living inside those borders are condemned for their whole lives. NOBODY wants them as that would mean a huge flow of $$$ being sent to reeducate and assist them in catching up with the 21st century. Their language has completely gone another way, with north koreans not being able to understand a lot of things that south koreans say nowadays and everything related to technology is just to them like mirrors were for the 1400's american indians. Their economy is utterly fucked. All production is geared towards military needs. The moment the barriers open, there will be a HUGE flood of persons running towards Seoul and other cities looking for better jobs and a a better life. That would completely collapse the SK economic system. Wages would be pressured to go down and the need for basic goods would skyrocket, making them waaaay more expensive. Germany had it hard and still has it hard after almost 50 years of division. Korea has an impossible situation.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;50699213]North Korea is the ultimate clusterfuck in humanitarian crisis. Think about your worst african shit hole. Now elevate it to the power of 10. There you go. No solution whatsoever. All of the people living inside those borders are condemned for their whole lives. NOBODY wants them as that would mean a huge flow of $$$ being sent to reeducate and assist them in catching up with the 21st century. Their language has completely gone another way, with north koreans not being able to understand a lot of things that south koreans say nowadays and everything related to technology is just to them like mirrors were for the 1400's american indians. Their economy is utterly fucked. All production is geared towards military needs. The moment the barriers open, there will be a HUGE flood of persons running towards Seoul and other cities looking for better jobs and a a better life. That would completely collapse the SK economic system. Wages would be pressured to go down and the need for basic goods would skyrocket, making them waaaay more expensive. Germany had it hard and still has it hard after almost 50 years of division. Korea has an impossible situation.[/QUOTE] A number of native North Koreans have escaped and shared stories of horror that their families experienced. They often tell that being unhappy isn't necessarily uncommon, and a good number of those escapees have adapted to 21st century western life fine. Also Native Americans adapted to European tech within a couple of months; hell, the Aztecs realized what guns were and adapted relatively successful tactics to go against the Spaniards even just within the invasion of the Spaniards, and other Native American tribes even assisted the Spaniards, working with said technology perfectly well. Humans aren't nearly as stagnant and averse to change as you think, and obvious better life opportunities, be them weapons in this case, or hearty regular meals with a variety of entertainment choices as in the case of the NK, and it wouldn't take long at all. Also, Native Americans being bamboozled by mirrors? More than offensive. Native Americans worked with glass and reflective metal and obviously knew what reflections were, because of water, and a good deal of their myths revolve around reflections and water. Wouldn't take much to understand a hand mirror. Native Americans weren't mindless ape-people, and neither are North Koreans.

I feel like the longer we put off intervention in NK, the worse it's going to be when shit inevitably hits the fan there. Does anyone actually expect the whole country to make the drastic turnaround that would be needed for it to rehabilitate itself on it's own?

[QUOTE=Loriborn;50699479]A number of native North Koreans have escaped and shared stories of horror that their families experienced. They often tell that being unhappy isn't necessarily uncommon, and a good number of those escapees have adapted to 21st century western life fine. Also Native Americans adapted to European tech within a couple of months; hell, the Aztecs realized what guns were and adapted relatively successful tactics to go against the Spaniards even just within the invasion of the Spaniards, and other Native American tribes even assisted the Spaniards, working with said technology perfectly well. Humans aren't nearly as stagnant and averse to change as you think, and obvious better life opportunities, be them weapons in this case, or hearty regular meals with a variety of entertainment choices as in the case of the NK, and it wouldn't take long at all. Also, Native Americans being bamboozled by mirrors? More than offensive. Native Americans worked with glass and reflective metal and obviously knew what reflections were, because of water, and a good deal of their myths revolve around reflections and water. Wouldn't take much to understand a hand mirror. Native Americans weren't mindless ape-people, and neither are North Koreans.[/QUOTE] I dont think you know about that legend, to which I made mention. Maybe it's not that well known in the English speaking world. But in spanish speaking countries it is generally thought that Columbus came to America and the first natives he made contact with were completely astonished by their reflections on mirrors and traded them for gold. One thing is a particular set of cases, another thing is 20.000.000, hell, I dont really know right now many people NK has, popping up from one month to another in a region. I mean, can I convey what that in economic terms means? If you want to read more there's a RAND investigation on the matter. A COMPLETE investigation. The PDF develops every kind of possible scenario.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50696933]Id do the same if i was them, then again if i was the US id have invaded them instead of Iraq[/QUOTE] Which would have prompted North Korea to level the city of Seoul with the artillery they had pointed at it from across the DMZ in the case of this exact eventuality. Causing hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, at the very least.

[QUOTE=Melkor;50699682]Which would have prompted North Korea to level the city of Seoul with the artillery they had pointed at it from across the DMZ in the case of this exact eventuality. Causing hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, at the very least.[/QUOTE] just bomb the artillery first

I can never tell what is and isn't sarcasm anymore.

[QUOTE=abcpea;50699830]just bomb the artillery first[/QUOTE] It takes something like 18 minutes for bombers to get from Guam/Japan to the DMZ, so that's not exactly realistic.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;50700672]It takes something like 18 minutes for bombers to get from Guam/Japan to the DMZ, so that's not exactly realistic.[/QUOTE] ...Out of curiosity, if it were to be a NATO preemptive strike with no preceding declaration of war (Not that one is needed. War never officially ended, and it's also the last military action that the US has filed a formal declaration of war for anyway.), would that 18 minutes be long enough for the KPA to realize that the incoming blips on radar are targeting their artillery batteries and come to a decision?

[QUOTE=Riller;50697927]As always needs pointing out: [I][B]Noone[/B][/I] has any interest in a liberated North Korea. North Korea is harmless as it is, and no one wants the economic burden of getting them up to snuff with the rest of the world, so it's better for everyone except the North Korean people to just let status quo be status quo.[/QUOTE] refugees living in South Korea want kim in prison. LibertyInNorthKorea.org Nkinusa.org

[QUOTE=certified;50700716]would that 18 minutes be long enough for the KPA to realize that the incoming blips on radar are targeting their artillery batteries and come to a decision?[/QUOTE] There are many options in this kind of scenario, some examples Missile Strike Using Ballistic missiles with either conventional or nuclear payloads would result in the least amount of harm/loss towards us. They would however get an idea of what was going on prior to touch down, China / Russia may attempt to intercept them if it is out of the blue due to their proximity to North Korea. Bombers Very likely a combination of B-1/2s/52s with either conventional smart/dumb bombs or cruise missiles such as the AGM-86. It would take a lot of resources, most likely cause a lot of unwanted collateral, and our bombers would be detected prior to crossing the border. We would take many losses to SA-2/6/etcs depending on how it would play out. Stealth Aircraft Using strike aircraft such as F-22/35 would result in the lowest chance of detection prior to actual combat. Using either normal smart bombs or glide bombs armed with cluster munitions could catch artillery sites off guard. Counter Artillery Using un/guided shells would could shoot some arty of our own, the range we can get with howitzers now a days is fucking insane. Enough shells in the air however could result in detection. Anyway it goes, we'll be on DEFCON 2 praying that cocked pistol doesn't get called because after that point we'll have an extremely catastrophic situation in play.

[QUOTE=Melkor;50699682]Which would have prompted North Korea to level the city of Seoul with the artillery they had pointed at it from across the DMZ in the case of this exact eventuality. Causing hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, at the very least.[/QUOTE] They wouldn't "level the city" insanely exaggerated, most of their artillery doesn't have the range to hit, and even then they have little in the way of logistics, spare ammunition, and cities tend to be, y'know, very spread out.

[QUOTE=Michael haxz;50700787]There are many options in this kind of scenario, some examples Missile Strike Using Ballistic missiles with either conventional or nuclear payloads would result in the least amount of harm/loss towards us. They would however get an idea of what was going on prior to touch down, China / Russia may attempt to intercept them if it is out of the blue due to their proximity to North Korea. Bombers Very likely a combination of B-1/2s/52s with either conventional smart/dumb bombs or cruise missiles such as the AGM-86. It would take a lot of resources, most likely cause a lot of unwanted collateral, and our bombers would be detected prior to crossing the border. We would take many losses to SA-2/6/etcs depending on how it would play out. Stealth Aircraft Using strike aircraft such as F-22/35 would result in the lowest chance of detection prior to actual combat. Using either normal smart bombs or glide bombs armed with cluster munitions could catch artillery sites off guard. Counter Artillery Using un/guided shells would could shoot some arty of our own, the range we can get with howitzers now a days is fucking insane. Enough shells in the air however could result in detection. Anyway it goes, we'll be on DEFCON 2 praying that cocked pistol doesn't get called because after that point we'll have an extremely catastrophic situation in play.[/QUOTE] All of the above and then some. The aggressor has the privilege of coordination. Whatever nuclear capabilities the DPRK has will be lost within a couple of hours.

[QUOTE=Melkor;50699682]Which would have prompted North Korea to level the city of Seoul with the artillery they had pointed at it from across the DMZ in the case of this exact eventuality. Causing hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, at the very least.[/QUOTE] North Korea does not possess sufficient artillery within range of Seoul to 'level it' This is partly because the [i]vast[/i] majority of NK's artillery is conventional gun based artillery based well out of range of Seoul and partly because Seoul is one of the largest goddamn cities on the entire planet [QUOTE=ewitwins;50700672]It takes something like 18 minutes for bombers to get from Guam/Japan to the DMZ, so that's not exactly realistic.[/QUOTE] It would take noticeably longer than that for NK to bring what little artillery they have capable of hitting Seoul from the DMZ within range There's also the part where South Korea is far from helpless and have their own airbases closer to home and their own domestically produced strike craft Even if they somehow manage that without being noticed and launch an artillery strike, even their biggest guns and launchers just don't have the destructive capability necessary to 'level the city of Seoul' with anything less than [I]months[/I] of bombardment There would definitely be significant loss of life but this idea that Seoul would be annihilated by a North Korean first strike is just so much bullshit

[QUOTE=proboardslol;50700781]refugees living in South Korea want kim in prison. LibertyInNorthKorea.org Nkinusa.org[/QUOTE] I thought it was fairly clear that I meant 'noone' as in state powers. On a personal, human level, I think most people would want the North Koreans to be free and up to date, shittin' rainbows and dancing with butterflies.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;50700781]refugees living in South Korea want kim in prison. LibertyInNorthKorea.org Nkinusa.org[/QUOTE] While we could argue that we'd be well within moral rights to "liberate" the citizens of NK by stomping out the oppressive regime, it'll never happen because it's simply too big of a can of worms. And invading a sovereign nation just because we think their leaders are being pricks is in itself pretty questionable.

[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;50700931]They wouldn't "level the city" insanely exaggerated, most of their artillery doesn't have the range to hit, and even then they have little in the way of logistics, spare ammunition, and cities tend to be, y'know, very spread out.[/QUOTE]There was once this forum thread (militaryimages.net? something like that) posted sometime in 2008 where someone went through satellite images, compared noticeable artillery emplacements with known North Korean artillery pieces and the range thereof, and found that pretty much everything other than the Koksan pieces wouldn't have the range to hit Seoul. They do have a shitload of conventional ballistic missiles, though.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;50699213]North Korea is the ultimate clusterfuck in humanitarian crisis. Think about your worst african shit hole. Now elevate it to the power of 10. There you go. No solution whatsoever. All of the people living inside those borders are condemned for their whole lives. NOBODY wants them as that would mean a huge flow of $$$ being sent to reeducate and assist them in catching up with the 21st century. Their language has completely gone another way, with north koreans not being able to understand a lot of things that south koreans say nowadays and everything related to technology is just to them like mirrors were for the 1400's american indians. Their economy is utterly fucked. All production is geared towards military needs. The moment the barriers open, there will be a HUGE flood of persons running towards Seoul and other cities looking for better jobs and a a better life. That would completely collapse the SK economic system. Wages would be pressured to go down and the need for basic goods would skyrocket, making them waaaay more expensive. Germany had it hard and still has it hard after almost 50 years of division. Korea has an impossible situation.[/QUOTE] You vastly underestimate the adaptability of human beings. Also China could absorb that population without even feeling it. [QUOTE=Melkor;50699682]Which would have prompted North Korea to level the city of Seoul with the artillery they had pointed at it from across the DMZ in the case of this exact eventuality. Causing hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, at the very least.[/QUOTE] You seriously underestimate the miliary might of the US, there are very few things those guys are good at, bombing people is one of them... [editline]13th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=ewitwins;50700672]It takes something like 18 minutes for bombers to get from Guam/Japan to the DMZ, so that's not exactly realistic.[/QUOTE] You are misunderstanding, we are talking about a US invasion, they ave the benefit of having those bombers be the first attack.

[QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50698725]Yes, but civilians are suffering and going through absolute torture in NK. [B]Why not help them?[/B] They deserve better then that.[/QUOTE] Because we could spend money helping here and get much better results as far as dollar to human suffering stopped plus you know it'd be better to help taxpayers instead of invading another country to forcibly liberate them to help

[QUOTE=phygon;50701869]Because we could spend money helping here and get much better results as far as dollar to human suffering stopped plus you know it'd be better to help taxpayers instead of invading another country to forcibly liberate them to help[/QUOTE] North Korea is the worst human rights crisis of our generation. We have to do something

[QUOTE=proboardslol;50701898]North Korea is the worst human rights crisis of our generation. We have to do something[/QUOTE] No we don't. Why is it our responsibility [I]again[/I]? It's not. At all. I'd much rather that my tax dollars went to something that WAS our responsibility, like fixing education or our poverty rates or our obviously under trained police force or our homeless or those that can't afford proper healthcare. We can put money into saving people's lives here, on our soil, without starting WAR with one of the simultaneously poorest AND MOST MILITARIZED country on the entire planet. If we liberate them, what then? Do we import them here so they can work? We can't do that, none of them are skilled laborers. Most of them haven't even touched a computer. Who deals with it then? South Korea? They don't want to. Or, we could just leave them to languish without fixing anything, which would result in even more human rights atrocities as the country essentially burns with no real leader or governmental system. Their economy is totally fucked. If we invaded them, unless we spent trillions on stimulating theirs, it would never even begin to recover. Instead of invading a country and then spending an unbelievable amount of money on said country, why not spend the money on the people actually paying? [editline]13th July 2016[/editline] Also, how is it even remotely a "crisis of our generation"? This shit has been going on since the korean war in 1950, 66 years ago.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50701793]Also China could absorb that population without even feeling it.[/QUOTE] Yeah, because they have nothing better to do than to take care of millions of people, and the fact that most of them don't even have a propper education or knowledge of any foreign language or skills demanded in the modern world would make their employment even harder. Basically most of them are just village farmers or low tear construction workers or whatnot, and China has plenty of their own guys doing the exact same things. Also China itself has a good portion of their population living in very poor conditions, and i bet they would rather take care of their own people and problems.

[QUOTE=phygon;50701914]No we don't. Why is it our responsibility [I]again[/I]? It's not. At all. I'd much rather that my tax dollars went to something that WAS our responsibility, like fixing education or our poverty rates or our obviously under trained police force or our homeless or those that can't afford proper healthcare. We can put money into saving people's lives here, on our soil, without starting WAR with one of the simultaneously poorest AND MOST MILITARIZED country on the entire planet. If we liberate them, what then? Do we import them here so they can work? We can't do that, none of them are skilled laborers. Most of them haven't even touched a computer. Who deals with it then? South Korea? They don't want to. Or, we could just leave them to languish without fixing anything, which would result in even more human rights atrocities as the country essentially burns with no real leader or governmental system. Their economy is totally fucked. If we invaded them, unless we spent trillions on stimulating theirs, it would never even begin to recover. Instead of invading a country and then spending an unbelievable amount of money on said country, why not spend the money on the people actually paying? [editline]13th July 2016[/editline] Also, how is it even remotely a "crisis of our generation"? This shit has been going on since the korean war in 1950, 66 years ago.[/QUOTE] Because no one fucking fixed it back then. It's absolutely your responsibility. And mine, and everyone's. These are people suffering. A fuck ton of people. Just because they live outside your country doesn't change that. They're still human beings, every single one of them.

Pretty sure most of the artillery if it were to hit seoul will miss civilian populations. At least a good amount, since its quite mountainous. But if war were to break out, the issue will be a long insurgency with North korean guerilla fighters.

[QUOTE=elowin;50702010]Because no one fucking fixed it back then. It's absolutely your responsibility. And mine, and everyone's. These are people suffering. A fuck ton of people. Just because they live outside your country doesn't change that. They're still human beings, every single one of them.[/QUOTE] Nobody is saying we shouldn't care about the citizens of NK, but caring or "taking responsibility" doesn't magically open up new options. Anything we do will drastically worsen their situation. NK wants a peace treaty and to be recognized as a state by the US so that they can form economic relations with the rest of the world. The US does not want to recognize NK as a legitimate state until they drop their nuclear program. NK keeps developing their nuclear program because they're shit-scared of the survival of their government, so they make threats and increase tensions to force the US to the negotiating table for peace talks. A potential magical quick fix might be if the US dropped their demand to have NK end their nuclear program and actually facilitated a peace treaty; this would improve NK's economy and eventually the situation for the citizens. However, the only thing worse than a poor NK with a nuclear program is a wealthy NK with a nuclear program. Do you see the dilemma here?

[QUOTE=elowin;50702010]Because no one fucking fixed it back then. It's absolutely your responsibility. And mine, and everyone's. These are people suffering. A fuck ton of people. Just because they live outside your country doesn't change that. They're still human beings, every single one of them.[/QUOTE] And? What's your point? People are suffering literally everywhere, and at the end of the day you need to decide to help sone and not help others because resources are finite. We could help people suffering in our own countries at a much higher effort to suffering reduction ratio because we wouldn't have to worry about blowing all of our relief money on a fucking WAR. Think about it. Many people here that live in poverty suffer terribly. We can help more of them than we can help people in the NK, and we have a much larger responsibility to help them than we do to help some other country that wed have to invade to help. We wouldn't even help them unless another country stepped in and totally sacked their entire economy [editline]13th July 2016[/editline] Like even if we liberate them, as I said before, their economy is capital f Fucked. Some other country would have to fix it because they couldn't do it themselves so everyone will end up still starving to death and we wouldn't have achieved anything unless we also sack our economy.

[QUOTE=Melkor;50699682]Which would have prompted North Korea to level the city of Seoul with the artillery they had pointed at it from across the DMZ in the case of this exact eventuality. Causing hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, at the very least.[/QUOTE]lmao "hundreds of thousands" Yeah if every shell landed in the middle of a large gathering with a hundred percent effectiveness, sure, but one that's retarded, two, that's impossible, and three, Nork artillery sure as hell isn't that accurate. Surprisingly shelling a city is actually a real bitch if it has buildings over a certain height because shells striking the corners and roofs tend to produce little casualties as troops attacking Sarajevo found out first-hand. It's only after weeks and months of sustained fighting do the buildings actually collapse (as seen in Damascus and other Syrian cities) and by that time North Korea would be soundly defeated. I've posted a whole bunch of times detailing why they have less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning, suffice to say after the first few hours the number of guns firing on Seoul would be next to none. South Korea has invested heavily in counter-battery radar to direct airstrikes and their own artillery to silence Nork guns as soon as possible because it's the one thing the Norks are truly good at and everyone knows it. [QUOTE=ewitwins;50700672]It takes something like 18 minutes for bombers to get from Guam/Japan to the DMZ, so that's not exactly realistic.[/QUOTE]Yes because the ROKAF would just wait patiently for bombers from fucking Guam to fly in. Except none of that makes sense, especially since their F-15 variant is essentially the F-15E that's partially built locally and with some unique features of it's own. [QUOTE=certified;50700716]...Out of curiosity, if it were to be a NATO preemptive strike with no preceding declaration of war (Not that one is needed. War never officially ended, and it's also the last military action that the US has filed a formal declaration of war for anyway.), would that 18 minutes be long enough for the KPA to realize that the incoming blips on radar are targeting their artillery batteries and come to a decision?[/QUOTE]Assuming their air defense network is actually operating and staffed properly? Operating in conjunction with a functional communications system? Absolutely. This is all assuming the guns are in place, staffed, have ammunition, and are actually paying attention. That's a [I]lot[/I] of ifs, and even then only the Koksan have the ability to actually fire on Seoul. [editline]14th July 2016[/editline] Oh and one more thing: Seoul has known it's been in the crosshairs since the 50's and every level of their city is built with that in mind. Look at the streets and Seoul, the absurdly high amount of shelters, the orientation of the buildings, the entire city just needs a few companies of engineers to turn it into a fortress. Assuming the KPA even got that far the Norks would find themselves fucked from every fucking angle. This is all a ridiculous impossibility anyway, a company of K2 tanks by themselves could take on any KPA armored battalion, it's the M1 versus the T-72 all over again and the infantry situation is just as bad. Beyond artillery the Norks have nothing worthwhile on the ground aside from a fuckload of special forces, who are using equipment from the fucking 60's fighting against a modern military with an entire superpower backing it. Essentially it would take actual fucking sorcery for North Korea to ever threaten Seoul outside of missiles and some sporadic artillery fire.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50707376]lmao "hundreds of thousands" Yeah if every shell landed in the middle of a large gathering with a hundred percent effectiveness, sure, but one that's retarded, two, that's impossible, and three, Nork artillery sure as hell isn't that accurate. Surprisingly shelling a city is actually a real bitch if it has buildings over a certain height because shells striking the corners and roofs tend to produce little casualties as troops attacking Sarajevo found out first-hand. It's only after weeks and months of sustained fighting do the buildings actually collapse (as seen in Damascus and other Syrian cities) and by that time North Korea would be soundly defeated. I've posted a whole bunch of times detailing why they have less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning, suffice to say after the first few hours the number of guns firing on Seoul would be next to none. South Korea has invested heavily in counter-battery radar to direct airstrikes and their own artillery to silence Nork guns as soon as possible because it's the one thing the Norks are truly good at and everyone knows it. Yes because the ROKAF would just wait patiently for bombers from fucking Guam to fly in. Except none of that makes sense, especially since their F-15 variant is essentially the F-15E that's partially built locally and with some unique features of it's own. Assuming their air defense network is actually operating and staffed properly? Operating in conjunction with a functional communications system? Absolutely. This is all assuming the guns are in place, staffed, have ammunition, and are actually paying attention. That's a [I]lot[/I] of ifs, and even then only the Koksan have the ability to actually fire on Seoul. [editline]14th July 2016[/editline] Oh and one more thing: Seoul has known it's been in the crosshairs since the 50's and every level of their city is built with that in mind. Look at the streets and Seoul, the absurdly high amount of shelters, the orientation of the buildings, the entire city just needs a few companies of engineers to turn it into a fortress. Assuming the KPA even got that far the Norks would find themselves fucked from every fucking angle. This is all a ridiculous impossibility anyway, a company of K2 tanks by themselves could take on any KPA armored battalion, it's the M1 versus the T-72 all over again and the infantry situation is just as bad. Beyond artillery the Norks have nothing worthwhile on the ground aside from a fuckload of special forces, who are using equipment from the fucking 60's fighting against a modern military with an entire superpower backing it. Essentially it would take actual fucking sorcery for North Korea to ever threaten Seoul outside of missiles and some sporadic artillery fire.[/QUOTE] portable nuke driven in by truck.