[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;44317525]I'm actually Catholic myself, but I tend to think along the lines of God forming the universe like a potter forms a clay pot.
You spin a lump of clay on a wheel, forming it and shaping it until it reaches the desired state. The only difference is that the lump of clay is things like evolution, the Big Bang Theory, the formation of the Solar System, and whatever modern science determines to be physically true. Eventually, over fourteen billion years, we reach the present state of humanity.
Take it as you will - and I know a shitton of people disagree with me, whether concerning the physical side or spiritual side - but I prefer that idea over the literal Garden of Eden. It fits in neatly with the scientific knowledge we've gathered and the religious knowledge the Church has learned.[/QUOTE]
Weren't the first five books of the OT given to Moses in a dream anyway? It only serves to reason that it'd be heavily abridged, like all the other visions and prophecies.
[QUOTE=woolio1;44317604]Weren't the first five books of the OT given to Moses in a dream anyway? It only serves to reason that it'd be heavily abridged, like all the other visions and prophecies.[/QUOTE]
If you want me to be bluntly honest, I've never heard of that.
[QUOTE=geogzm;44315548]Breaking news: Pope found murdered with fingers missing :v:[/QUOTE]
More at 12 the next day; Pope's murderers arrested, sentenced to death, world outraged
[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;44317683]If you want me to be bluntly honest, I've never heard of that.[/QUOTE]
Oh. Maybe that's more tradition than scripture. I'm not actually sure.
[QUOTE=woolio1;44317604]Weren't the first five books of the OT given to Moses in a dream anyway? It only serves to reason that it'd be heavily abridged, like all the other visions and prophecies.[/QUOTE]
I hold the view that things like the Ten Commandments were given to Moses while he was guiding the Jews, therefore they only apply to the Jews.
[QUOTE=Forumaster;44315883]Except Lucifer. Apparently bringing knowledge and reason to an entire race is a no-no.[/QUOTE]
I.E. Satan's intent was to trick humanity into serving him by showing them knowledge then ripping it away.
There's a reason he's called "Prince of Lies."
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44317819]I hold the view that things like the Ten Commandments were given to Moses while he was guiding the Jews, therefore they only apply to the Jews.[/QUOTE]
But then you get things like "I didn't come here to abolish the law, but to fulfill it," in the New Testament, and the whole thing gets so much more confusing.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;44316356]Lucifer and the snake were (likely) different characters since most biblical scholars don't seem willing to say that either one is Satan
I think Lucifer is just an angel that rebelled against god, but didn't become the devil, Satan is just a personification of evil, and the talking snake was just literally a snake that talked because the bible was silly like that[/QUOTE]
So basically Eve was on acid
it all makes sense now
I think this is the first time I've seen a theology discussion on FP like, ever
[QUOTE=zpiscool;44319094]I think this is the first time I've seen a theology discussion on FP like, ever[/QUOTE]
they grow up so fast *snivel*
[QUOTE=Zeke129;44316356]Lucifer and the snake were (likely) different characters since most biblical scholars don't seem willing to say that either one is Satan
I think Lucifer is just an angel that rebelled against god, but didn't become the devil, Satan is just a personification of evil, and the talking snake was just literally a snake that talked because the bible was silly like that[/QUOTE]
"I dunno man you should totally eat that apple, I mean what's wrong with it?"
"Holy shit I just got those people evicted fuck WHAT HAVE I DONE."
[QUOTE=Zeke129;44316511]But modern ideas of Lucifer seem to come from Dante's Inferno - which isn't biblical canon.[/QUOTE]
this almost feels like a comic book discussion
"lucifer vs satan who wins? bible lucifer tho not the one from that shitty dante spinoff"
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;44320010]"lucifer vs satan who wins? bible lucifer tho not the one from that shitty dante spinoff"[/QUOTE]
pfft, earth version 6161122398 lucifer-boy kicks both their asses.
[QUOTE=zpiscool;44319094]I think this is the first time I've seen a theology discussion on FP like, ever[/QUOTE]
This isn't he first time I've seen one, but thus-far it's the first civil one I've seen.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;44320326]This isn't he first time I've seen one, but thus-far it's the first civil one I've seen.[/QUOTE]
I'm just surprised nobody's turned up and started making fun of us.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;44317824]I.E. Satan's intent was to trick humanity into serving him by showing them knowledge then ripping it away.
There's a reason he's called "Prince of Lies."[/QUOTE]
That's really the big concept behind evil in the Bible. Throughout it evil is often presented in the form of temptation. Things that may seem fun or easy at the time, but have bad consequences.
[QUOTE=zpiscool;44319094]I think this is the first time I've seen a theology discussion on FP like, ever[/QUOTE]
It's pope Francis' magic
Ever since his assignation militant atheists everywhere became more... peacefull. I'm seeing it not only here, but all over the web.
[QUOTE=zpiscool;44319094]I think this is the first time I've seen a theology discussion on FP like, ever[/QUOTE]
Go back to the first Francis posts...there were some quite good theology discussions there
Not to burst your bubbles or anything, but we "Militant Athiests" still think the whole Adam and Eve thing is a load of crap.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;44321495]Not to burst your bubbles or anything, but we "Militant Athiests" still think the whole Adam and Eve thing is a load of crap.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I think that would be pretty obvious and you don't need to shove that I to the conversation for its own sake.
Let's clear this out once again-
According to Paradise Lost- which is not canon, but influenced the mith so widely it may be considered the roots of the figure of satan as we know today, the one and only intent Lucipher had was to [i]spoil[/i] mankind. It is clearly stated in the book. That the fruit was that of knowledge was purely accidental. It might've aswell been the fruit of having two set of arms for all he cared. That wouldn't have explained why we have a conscience and just one set of arms, tho. So conscience it was.
From this point on two theories have arised-
One that sees satan as a modern prometheus, who gave knowledge to mankind willingly- often at the core of modern satanism (Temple of Satan).
And one that instead attributes the gift to God himself, whom, one step ahead of his enemy, foresaw the spoiling attempt and gave the fruit the power of knowledge.
All of the above tho is based on the assumption that the snake in Genesis-3 is indeed Lucipher. This is never stated in the Old testament. Hell, he's not even ever mentioned iirc. (catholicism tho recognizesthe snake as a symbol of sin.. go figure) He is there in a couple of episodes in the new testament.
Funnily enough, the myth of satan and that of the boogeyman aren't too far one from another. Much of what christianity is, came from its iconography, and throughout history black monster men were drawn to personify sin. And we all know whom we consider the personification of sin, don't we?
I'm knowledgeable on the matter, amaa.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;44321495]Not to burst your bubbles or anything, but we "Militant Athiests" still think the whole Adam and Eve thing is a load of crap.[/QUOTE]
congrats
Also woah there with the racism, modern mafia isn't like what you'd think any longer.
[QUOTE=lapsus_;44321642]Let's clear this out once again-
According to Paradise Lost- which is not canon, but influenced the mith so widely it may be considered the roots of the figure of satan as we know today, the one and only intent Lucipher had was to [i]spoil[/i] mankind. It is clearly stated in the book. That the fruit was that of knowledge was purely accidental. It might've aswell been the fruit of having two set of arms for all he cared. That wouldn't have explained why we have a conscience and just one set of arms, tho. So conscience it was.
From this point on two theories have arised-
One that sees satan as a modern prometheus, who gave knowledge to mankind willingly- often at the core of modern satanism (Temple of Satan).
And one that instead attributes the gift to God himself, whom, one step ahead of his enemy, foresaw the spoiling attempt and gave the fruit the power of knowledge.
All of the above tho is based on the assumption that the snake in Genesis-3 is indeed Lucipher. This is never stated in the Old testament. Hell, he's not even ever mentioned iirc. (catholicism tho recognizesthe snake as a symbol of sin.. go figure) He is there in a couple of episodes in the new testament.
Funnily enough, the myth of satan and that of the boogeyman aren't too far one from another. Much of what christianity is, came from its iconography, and throughout history black monster men were drawn to personify sin. And we all know whom we consider the personification of sin, don't we?
I'm knowledgeable on the matter, amaa.[/QUOTE]
To add on and also trump my own statement earlier, it is never explicitly said that the snake is Lucifer. It his hinted that is a possibility, or that the snake, a normal trickster, was convinced by Lucifer to convince Eve to eat the fruit. This actually spawns from an older Hebrew story that was removed from the Bible on how snakes lost their legs. Other Hebrew stories were removed from the Bible as well, such as God creating the King of Birds, or the creation of Lilith as the first woman and her corruption by Lucifer.
[QUOTE=zpiscool;44319094]I think this is the first time I've seen a theology discussion on FP like, ever[/QUOTE]
And a pretty decent one at that, minus a couple shitposts. I feel pride like a mother whose son just became president.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;44321495]Not to burst your bubbles or anything, but we "Militant Athiests" still think the whole Adam and Eve thing is a load of crap.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, a lot of Christians think the same thing. It's all Biblical metaphor, created to explain the origins of the Deity and, to a lesser extent, affirm his position as a creator God. Granted, the entire concept of the study of theology was nonexistent, so it was crafted for Bronze Age peasants who wouldn't understand the loftier concepts of existence, purpose, or the like.
[editline]22nd March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;44322170]To add on and also trump my own statement earlier, it is never explicitly said that the snake is Lucifer. It his hinted that is a possibility, or that the snake, a normal trickster, was convinced by Lucifer to convince Eve to eat the fruit. This actually spawns from an older Hebrew story that was removed from the Bible on how snakes lost their legs. Other Hebrew stories were removed from the Bible as well, such as God creating the King of Birds, or the creation of Lilith as the first woman and her corruption by Lucifer.[/QUOTE]
Council of Laodicea. The birthplace of modern Christianity, condensed, abridged, and created as a tool to unite the failing Roman Empire after the Roman-Persian War.
[QUOTE=woolio1;44322340]
Council of Laodicea. The birthplace of modern Christianity, condensed, abridged, and created as a tool to unite the failing Roman Empire after the Roman-Persian War.[/QUOTE]
Nicea is my personal favourite. I just, so wanted to be there. Imagine- a bunch of old pops sat and yelled until everyone agreed that yeah, mary was a virgin and holy, christ was a virgin birth thus and yeah, christ and god both exist since forever and didn't came one after another (quite an interesting take on 'which came first? The chicken or the egg?'). :v:
[QUOTE=lapsus_;44322538]Nicea is my personal favourite. I just, so wanted to be there. Imagine- a bunch of old pops sat and yelled until everyone agreed that yeah, mary was a virgin and holy, christ was a virgin birth thus and yeah, christ and god both exist since forever and didn't came one after another (quite an interesting take on 'which came first? The chicken or the egg?'). :v:[/QUOTE]
My favorite has to be when Pope Celestine V resigned and the entire Catholic clergy fell into a holy fit of excommunication the likes of a kindergarten secret club argument.
So nobody's been killed yet? No horse heads hidden in beds or toll booth massacres or people getting shot in the eye during a massage or anything? Just checking.
I heard a gunfire outside my window.
Saw some guy with a fedora hat and a dead body.
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