Bitcoin virtual currency hits (ALL-TIME) record high after exchange deal - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;40091104]I have to contest this, part of bitcoin mining includes the verification of transactions with fees given to miners to do this in a quick manner. All miners can choose to ignore transactions without fees thus extending the actual real-time it takes for the funds to transfer, which goes against being instant or lacking fees. Once all coins are mined this would become the way miners earn more bitcoins, meaning it would simply be a waste of their time to process transactions without the 'finders fee'.[/QUOTE] Alright, I guess that can be considered a temporary advantage, but even feeless transactions will continue to verify same-day for years, usually during times of otherwise low transaction activity. You're right about the long term though, eventually miner fees will be necessary if you want your payments verified in any reasonable amount of time, assuming there isn't a large amount of nodes willing to verify feeless transactions. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] Thank you for making a rational argument. It's certainly a nice change of pace for this thread.

[QUOTE=mblunk;40093748] Thank you for making a rational argument. It's certainly a nice change of pace for this thread.[/QUOTE] You got your ass kicked so suddenly catbarf's arguments are again "ignorant" and irrational lol

[QUOTE=scout1;40094785]You got your ass kicked so suddenly catbarf's arguments are again "ignorant" and irrational lol[/QUOTE] You're right, he's the only person who said something that I can't defend, and in the scope of a single post too. Something you failed to do page after page.

[QUOTE=mblunk;40085051] Alright, let's collect all of bitcoin's advantages in one place: • Lack of fees • No reliance on any single point of failure like a government (or company in the case of other digital currencies/commodities that have value, like Second Life lindens or TF2 refined metals) • As anonymous or public as you want it to be • Instant (in terms of the initial propagation, verification can take several minutes though if you want to make sure the transaction is "real" and committed to the blockchain) • Extremely simple in terms of dealing with purely bitcoins; you can scan QR codes or use NFC or any future technology capable of working with the internet • You have complete control of your funds, you can use an online wallet for ease of access or a paper wallet for complete security[/QUOTE] Instant transfer and simple protocol are conveniences at best. It's not free of fees, as Lonestriper pointed out, and the public/anonymous aspect is interesting to certain parties but not much of a feature for general use. The two main advantages that stand out are that it is non-reliant on a single point of failure, and by the same token doesn't involve a third-party ownership. But in the modern world of FDIC-insured banks, you're more likely to lose all access to the Internet as you are to have your bank collapse and money disappear. If anything, I think the likelihood of the US government collapsing is less likely than the Internet collapsing- and remember, the US government collapsing would destroy the Bitcoin economy just as surely, given that nearly everything in BTC is tied to the US dollar. You say that it's not tied to a single point of failure like a government, but as long as the BTC is a proxy for the USD that isn't the case. [QUOTE=mblunk;40085051] Features that can be advantages or disadvantages: • No chargebacks • Deflationary system, we don't know how well they work in the real world (seems to work fine so far though)[/QUOTE] No chargebacks is [i]huge[/i]. Most people don't pay for a house, or a car, or a boat with cash because there is no accountability. With Bitcoin, you have a worst-of-both-worlds situation where you have all the permanence and lack of accountability of hard currency, with the anonymity of the Internet. If someone scams you, you are SOL. If someone gets access to your information, they can empty your wallet and there is nothing you can do. Being insured against fraud is an enormous component of why people rely on banks and credit cards, because you have the peace of mind of knowing that if someone should grab your credit card data and empty your account, you won't be held responsible for it. Whereas with Bitcoin, not only is there no protection whatsoever, but your wallet isn't even encrypted by default. It's [i]plaintext[/i] for crying out loud. This is not a secure solution by any means. Would you pay for a large transaction with someone you don't trust? Would you be willing to send a few hundred, a thousand, five thousand dollars across Bitcoin? I've done this with Paypal and I've felt safe doing it, because if the guy on the other end tries to scam me I have plenty of recourse. And can you imagine a business signing a deal for a few hundred thousand dollars, and sending payment via Bitcoin? With no trail there is no recourse if one party should fail to meet the contract. Any deal that in real life would be unsuited to a briefcase full of cash as payment is unsuited to Bitcoin for the same reason. There is one potential solution here- a Bitcoin bank of sorts, providing fraud protection and handling transactions as an intermediary a la Paypal. Of course, then that whole 'decentralized' boon goes down the drain, and if the bank should decide to 'disappear' you get royally screwed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. [QUOTE=mblunk;40085051] Disadvantages (which are all temporary so far): • Reliance on the security of exchanges, and the monopoly that is mtgox, if you want to trade them for more established currencies • Bitcoin robbery not taken as seriously by officials[/QUOTE] There is one other disadvantage that hasn't been mentioned, and it's the inherent vulnerabilities when using the Internet. A DDoS against a website will shut down the website. A protest in the streets might make it take longer for two businesses to conduct a deal. But a DDoS against a Bitcoin user can shut down their ability to send or receive payment. This isn't an issue for you or me, but for a company that expects to be handling transactions on a day-by-day basis it's an enormous security risk. Imagine a small business or corporation being shut down for days because they are being denied the ability to handle money at all. And because it's on the Internet, there's no guarantee that it will be short-term or that the perpetrator would be found. We're looking at a totally new type of corporate warfare, where companies can literally shut down the ability of their competitors to send and receive money. Consider the resources a company like Microsoft has at their disposal- what chance does the little guy have? Well, let's change it up a bit. Let's have the target platform be just an IP address, so they can route the connection as they see fit. Now their Bitcoin address is hidden, and people can send money just by sending it to the server. This sounds great until someone pulls off a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-in-the-middle_attack]man-in-the-middle attack[/url] and steals all the incoming money. Then you've got the vulnerability of the target platform. When you're sending money, you're sending to a Bitcoin address. Okay, so what happens if a hacker gets into a site and makes a slight alteration to the page? Now it's his address you just sent an order to and you will never get your money back. You're on a public network, like at an airport or college campus? Better hope nobody has packet sniffing software, or they'll see your transactions clear as day and be able to spoof them. And, again, just to be clear, once your money is gone, [i]it's gone[/i]. You will never, ever get it back. Consider how successful online scammers and hackers have been with the current system, despite the myriad security features designed to prevent information from being compromised. I don't imagine that if Bitcoin becomes more popular they'll stay with credit cards. None of these issues are insurmountable hurdles that can't be fixed or overcome, but they're serious questions for anyone using the platform and are more than a bit daunting for ordinary people. Someone trying to run a small business online, or someone just trying to buy things through eBay, doesn't want to have to be a network security expert just to stop all their money from being stolen. Large businesses won't want to deal with being DoS targets, small businesses won't want to deal with script kiddies attacking their site or bigger businesses stomping out their competition with a deniable DoS, normal people won't want 'someone took my credit card and ran up a bunch of purchases, I need to call and get my money back' to turn into 'someone took my unencrypted Bitcoin data and sent all the money, my life is ruined'. For a company, accountability is a huge deal, Bitcoin doesn't provide that. For a typical user, security and safety are a huge deal, Bitcoin doesn't provide that. Half of the appeal of services like Paypal or credit cards is that you don't need to be perfect. Mistakes happen. But you have the peace of mind of knowing that if you make a mistake, you're protected and will get your money back. Using Bitcoin on the Internet is more akin to going down the street with all your money in your pockets. You may have more control, but if you make a mistake you're out of luck. If you ask a typical person whether they care more about their money being secure or their money being independent from any regulatory agency, I bet $10 I know what their answer will be. Bitcoin is great for shady purchases where you don't really want someone else looking in, even at the expense of safety. And I guess it's good if you really don't like the idea of using a 'real' currency, even though at the moment it is slaved to the USD because the price is bouncing all over the place. And a lot of the adopters are people who see it as a way to get rich quick because they don't understand or like traditional investing. That's all fine, and I understand entirely why Bitcoin is what it is. But I can't see it becoming a new world currency or progressing much farther than it has.

I am only getting 90 mhash/s with a 560 ti and 2500k if that matter, is it supposed to mine faster than that?

[QUOTE=catbarf;40095471]Instant transfer and simple protocol are conveniences at best. It's not free of fees, as Lonestriper pointed out, and the public/anonymous aspect is interesting to certain parties but not much of a feature for general use. The two main advantages that stand out are that it is non-reliant on a single point of failure, and by the same token doesn't involve a third-party ownership. But in the modern world of FDIC-insured banks, you're more likely to lose all access to the Internet as you are to have your bank collapse and money disappear. If anything, I think the likelihood of the US government collapsing is less likely than the Internet collapsing- and remember, the US government collapsing would destroy the Bitcoin economy just as surely, given that nearly everything in BTC is tied to the US dollar. You say that it's not tied to a single point of failure like a government, but as long as the BTC is a proxy for the USD that isn't the case. No chargebacks is [i]huge[/i]. Most people don't pay for a house, or a car, or a boat with cash because there is no accountability. With Bitcoin, you have a worst-of-both-worlds situation where you have all the permanence and lack of accountability of hard currency, with the anonymity of the Internet. If someone scams you, you are SOL. If someone gets access to your information, they can empty your wallet and there is nothing you can do. Being insured against fraud is an enormous component of why people rely on banks and credit cards, because you have the peace of mind of knowing that if someone should grab your credit card data and empty your account, you won't be held responsible for it. Whereas with Bitcoin, not only is there no protection whatsoever, but your wallet isn't even encrypted by default. It's [i]plaintext[/i] for crying out loud. This is not a secure solution by any means. Would you pay for a large transaction with someone you don't trust? Would you be willing to send a few hundred, a thousand, five thousand dollars across Bitcoin? I've done this with Paypal and I've felt safe doing it, because if the guy on the other end tries to scam me I have plenty of recourse. And can you imagine a business signing a deal for a few hundred thousand dollars, and sending payment via Bitcoin? With no trail there is no recourse if one party should fail to meet the contract. Any deal that in real life would be unsuited to a briefcase full of cash as payment is unsuited to Bitcoin for the same reason. There is one potential solution here- a Bitcoin bank of sorts, providing fraud protection and handling transactions as an intermediary a la Paypal. Of course, then that whole 'decentralized' boon goes down the drain, and if the bank should decide to 'disappear' you get royally screwed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. There is one other disadvantage that hasn't been mentioned, and it's the inherent vulnerabilities when using the Internet. A DDoS against a website will shut down the website. A protest in the streets might make it take longer for two businesses to conduct a deal. But a DDoS against a Bitcoin user can shut down their ability to send or receive payment. This isn't an issue for you or me, but for a company that expects to be handling transactions on a day-by-day basis it's an enormous security risk. Imagine a small business or corporation being shut down for days because they are being denied the ability to handle money at all. And because it's on the Internet, there's no guarantee that it will be short-term or that the perpetrator would be found. We're looking at a totally new type of corporate warfare, where companies can literally shut down the ability of their competitors to send and receive money. Consider the resources a company like Microsoft has at their disposal- what chance does the little guy have? Well, let's change it up a bit. Let's have the target platform be just an IP address, so they can route the connection as they see fit. Now their Bitcoin address is hidden, and people can send money just by sending it to the server. This sounds great until someone pulls off a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-in-the-middle_attack]man-in-the-middle attack[/url] and steals all the incoming money. Then you've got the vulnerability of the target platform. When you're sending money, you're sending to a Bitcoin address. Okay, so what happens if a hacker gets into a site and makes a slight alteration to the page? Now it's his address you just sent an order to and you will never get your money back. You're on a public network, like at an airport or college campus? Better hope nobody has packet sniffing software, or they'll see your transactions clear as day and be able to spoof them. And, again, just to be clear, once your money is gone, [i]it's gone[/i]. You will never, ever get it back. Consider how successful online scammers and hackers have been with the current system, despite the myriad security features designed to prevent information from being compromised. I don't imagine that if Bitcoin becomes more popular they'll stay with credit cards. None of these issues are insurmountable hurdles that can't be fixed or overcome, but they're serious questions for anyone using the platform and are more than a bit daunting for ordinary people. Someone trying to run a small business online, or someone just trying to buy things through eBay, doesn't want to have to be a network security expert just to stop all their money from being stolen. Large businesses won't want to deal with being DoS targets, small businesses won't want to deal with script kiddies attacking their site or bigger businesses stomping out their competition with a deniable DoS, normal people won't want 'someone took my credit card and ran up a bunch of purchases, I need to call and get my money back' to turn into 'someone took my unencrypted Bitcoin data and sent all the money, my life is ruined'. For a company, accountability is a huge deal, Bitcoin doesn't provide that. For a typical user, security and safety are a huge deal, Bitcoin doesn't provide that. Half of the appeal of services like Paypal or credit cards is that you don't need to be perfect. Mistakes happen. But you have the peace of mind of knowing that if you make a mistake, you're protected and will get your money back. Using Bitcoin on the Internet is more akin to going down the street with all your money in your pockets. You may have more control, but if you make a mistake you're out of luck. If you ask a typical person whether they care more about their money being secure or their money being independent from any regulatory agency, I bet $10 I know what their answer will be. Bitcoin is great for shady purchases where you don't really want someone else looking in, even at the expense of safety. And I guess it's good if you really don't like the idea of using a 'real' currency, even though at the moment it is slaved to the USD because the price is bouncing all over the place. And a lot of the adopters are people who see it as a way to get rich quick because they don't understand or like traditional investing. That's all fine, and I understand entirely why Bitcoin is what it is. But I can't see it becoming a new world currency or progressing much farther than it has.[/QUOTE] I absolutely agree with everything you have to say except for the last sentence, because bitcoin is a competitive advantage now; businesses that accept them stand to earn more from enthusiasts, especially enthusiasts willing to spend them when the price is rising like this. So as more businesses are willing to accept them and advertise themselves as such, bitcoin will get even more exposure and continue to grow so there's really no telling where it will stop. I appreciate the rest of your post though, you've presented a few things I haven't thought about in that way before. [editline]30th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=alx12345;40095927]I am only getting 90 mhash/s with a 560 ti and 2500k if that matter, is it supposed to mine faster than that?[/QUOTE] Nope, due to the way nvidia cards work, they're inherently pretty poor at mining.

Oh, well it doesnt worth trying to mine then? Due to electricity bill

[QUOTE=alx12345;40096014]Oh, well it doesnt worth trying to mine then? Due to electricity bill[/QUOTE] No, probably not, sorry. :(

[QUOTE=mblunk;40095389]You're right, he's the only person who said something that I can't defend, and in the scope of a single post too. Something you failed to do page after page.[/QUOTE] That's pretty big talk for someone who has yet to get a single prediction right but still feels justified calling nothing people ignorant.

shame, i would have loved free magic mushroom.

[QUOTE=scout1;40096107]That's pretty big talk for someone who has yet to get a single prediction right but still feels justified calling nothing people ignorant.[/QUOTE] You must have forgotten that our original debate a few weeks ago happened when bitcoin was worth less than half what it was now, as you vehemently denied the idea it could get any higher.

[QUOTE=mblunk;40096175]You must have forgotten that our original debate a few weeks ago happened when bitcoin was worth less than half what it was now, as you vehemently denied the idea it could get any higher.[/QUOTE] I said it was impossible to predict because of idiot speculation. You said it'd be $45. Which one of us is closer, eh? But I have to ask between twisting others arguments and declaring a victory with every post do YOU yourself ever realize that you're wrong?

[QUOTE=scout1;40096307]I said it was impossible to predict because of idiot speculation. You said it'd be $45. Which one of us is closer, eh? But I have to ask between twisting others arguments and declaring a victory with every post do YOU yourself ever realize that you're wrong?[/QUOTE] You already replied to a post where I did on this very page, genius.

[QUOTE=mblunk;40096408]You already replied to a post where I did on this very page, genius.[/QUOTE] Ah so your posts are only contesting the simple fact that your prediction with me was wrong. Well sir both of us can google for the graph that shows you've been wrong in the first place.

[QUOTE=scout1;40096456]Ah so your posts are only contesting the simple fact that your prediction with me was wrong. Well sir both of us can google for the graph that shows you've been wrong in the first place.[/QUOTE] Aren't you a laugh

[QUOTE=mblunk;40096485]Aren't you a laugh[/QUOTE] That's a deflection, not an admission. I would like you to admit you're wrong and stop running around calling other people ignorant when your own argument gets thin.

[QUOTE=scout1;40096548]That's a deflection, not an admission. I would like you to admit you're wrong and stop running around calling other people ignorant when your own argument gets thin.[/QUOTE] Wrong about what?! That my price prediction was wrong that I was clear was an estimate in the first place, despite it still going up? How about you admit that despite the idiot speculation, bitcoin continues to rise? You're delusional.

[QUOTE=scout1;40096548]I would like you to admit you're wrong and stop running around calling other people ignorant when your own argument gets thin.[/QUOTE] :siren: Irony alert :siren:

Sorry if someone has asked already, but has anyone bought any ASIC's? I ordered a few BFL units back in December and I'm still waiting on them. By the time I receive them, is there even any point in mining if I'm theoretically only gonna mine at just under 10GH/s? (obviously that's a lot compared to GPU mining, but there's already Avalon ASICs or whatever in the pools, and hopefully a surge of BFL whenever those come)

[QUOTE=Ultraleet;40099496]Sorry if someone has asked already, but has anyone bought any ASIC's? I ordered a few BFL units back in December and I'm still waiting on them. By the time I receive them, is there even any point in mining if I'm theoretically only gonna mine at just under 10GH/s? (obviously that's a lot compared to GPU mining, but there's already Avalon ASICs or whatever in the pools, and hopefully a surge of BFL whenever those come)[/QUOTE] Given the effiency it's still worth it, just their payrate will be really low in comparison. They'll still be worth letting them run for awhile I'd imagine.

I'm kicking myself now because if I bought $400 worth a few months ago then I could be selling now with profits over $1500. Even with free electricity why should I mine when I could make more trading?

[QUOTE=Epiclulz762;40122193]I'm kicking myself now because if I bought $400 worth a few months ago then I could be selling now with profits over $1500. Even with free electricity why should I mine when I could make more trading?[/QUOTE] don't do either because bitcoin is obviously in bubble mode and if you could honestly predict when it will crash then you should be trading in bigger markets and probably use your super powers for good and not evil. at least if you're going to trade, consider whatever you put in lost money like you would at a casino

[QUOTE=Starpluck;40060108]Bitcoin is at $90 and still rising. If you bought 10 BC back when there was a "crash" (not a crash) 2-3 weeks ago at $40 and sold them now, you would've easily made $500 net profit.[/QUOTE] ~$100 per Bitcoin. now. If you bought 10 BC when I made this post five days ago and sold them now at $104. You would've easily netted a $100 profit.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;40125733]~$100 per Bitcoin. now. If you bought 10 BC when I made this post five days ago and sold them now at $104. You would've easily netted a $100 profit.[/QUOTE] I am too pessimistic to invest. I expect them to drop any second. and when they do drop i am like: i knew it and then they recover and climb higher. its a fucking psychological game.

If I only bought those tulips when they were cheaper...

[quote]September 14 - jgarzik offered [B]10,000[/B] BTC (valued at [B]~$600-650[/B]) to puddinpop to open source their windows-based CUDA client[/quote] savage

Just hit 100 dollars.

When is there gunna be a crash, for what I seem, the lack of security's make it unlikely to drop, no?

[QUOTE=Ybbat;40131553]When is there gunna be a crash, for what I seem, the lack of security's make it unlikely to drop, no?[/QUOTE] While there's no reason to expect a crash soon, your guess is as good as anyone else's.

I've got a question about the blockchain. Basically, why is it necessary to download the whole transaction database (aka blockchain) to use bitcoin qt for transactions? [editline]2nd April 2013[/editline] Never mind, I figured it out... sort of. If anyone else is wondering, it is possible to avoid downloading the whole blockchain by using a service that stores the blockchain remotely. Some of those programs are MultiBit and Electrum clients, which are endorsed on the official bitcoin site.