• Harry Styles: "One Direction are bigger than the Beatles"
    193 replies, posted
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;43869598]That's incredibly debatable though. Who says we won't remember the cultural and musical innovations made by Kanye West in 40 years?[/QUOTE] sorry i guess i worded it in an overly harsh way. i guess what i mean is, while we will remember it, yes, and maybe some of us might continue to listen to it, it's just not going to be passed down in the same way as certain music of the 60s/70s like, a lot of people's parents will have introduced them to the beatles, or jimi hendrix, or anything like that. even without your parents showing you this old music though, these faces and sounds are cemented in pop culture and will be for a long time. people who don't even really like or know about the music walk around wearing bob marley, hendirx, rolling stones, or beatles shirts. everyone knows this stuff. it's iconic are we gonna see kids in 40 years walking around in coldplay or one direction tshirts. are you gonna say to your kids "hey, check out this stuff from the hip old days of 2010 - it's kanye west!"
[QUOTE=mchapra;43869468]If that were true we wouldn't be having this debate. All art is dependant on your personal experience and relation to the work, since art is in-fact, a personal experience from creator to receiver.[/QUOTE] there is nothing stopping someone from enjoying 5 straight minutes of someone strumming the same chord on an out of tune guitar, and liking it far better than the complete works of Ludwig Van Beethoven. that is personal experience, and if that person tried to argue that there's nothing about the music of Beethoven that's objectively better, there's a noval's worth of factual information that directly refutes that claim.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869832]tthere's a noval's worth of factual information that directly refutes that claim.[/QUOTE] no there isn't
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;43869624]people who don't even really like or know about the music walk around wearing bob marley, hendirx, rolling stones, or beatles shirts. everyone knows this stuff. it's iconic [/QUOTE] These days it's not so much about being an icon any more... back in those days those stars were kind of seen as superheroes or something. In this day and age where people can just pick and choose on demand, they can do their own research.. they can find their own music and become accustomed to more varieties of music much more easily. I find my own personal icons for me. I genuinely think pop stars these days are anywhere nearly as highly regarded as compared with the pop stars back in the 70s. These days, many weird and wonderful things are enveloping; 40 years from now.. who knows.. maybe music will be directly implanted into our heads.
[QUOTE=Hakita;43869448]yeah, i know it's subjective, that's why i said "personally" also, pioneering and technical innovation is great and all, but "lyrical and musical complexity"? dream theater make music that's more complex than the beatles, but that doesn't mean that it's better music complexity is the worst way to judge something "objectively"[/QUOTE] it's one of many factors. minimalist music will always have its place but creating music with exceeding complexity is something only very talented people can do. the more complex your art is, the more articulate you are in that form of expression. it doesn't mean that it's impossible to create a hyper-complex symphony that is still objectively bad or at least not enjoyable to listen to.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869832]there is nothing stopping someone from enjoying 5 straight minutes of someone strumming the same chord on an out of tune guitar, and liking it far better than the complete works of Ludwig Van Beethoven. that is personal experience, and if that person tried to argue that there's nothing about the music of Beethoven that's objectively better, there's a noval's worth of factual information that directly refutes that claim.[/QUOTE] 1+1 = 2 1+ 0.9(recurring) = 2 objectively subjective m8 what you're arguing is textbooks over individuality. [editline]11th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869871]the more complex your art is, the more articulate you are in that form of expression[/QUOTE] what a load of waffle.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869832]there is nothing stopping someone from enjoying 5 straight minutes of someone strumming the same chord on an out of tune guitar, and liking it far better than the complete works of Ludwig Van Beethoven. that is personal experience, and if that person tried to argue that there's nothing about the music of Beethoven that's objectively better, there's a noval's worth of factual information that directly refutes that claim.[/QUOTE] Just because music is more technical or complex does not make it objectively good or bad. Art is worth more than the sum of its materials and whatnot.
[QUOTE=mchapra;43869887]Just because music is more technical or complex does not make it objectively good or bad. Art is worth more than the sum of its materials and whatnot.[/QUOTE] why would you respond to me if you're just going to echo what I said in the post you quoted?
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869902]why would you respond to me if you're just going to echo what I said in the post you quoted?[/QUOTE] But I am not you seem to be under the impression that more complex music = more good music. This is really not the case since music isn't something you can put an objective measurement on.
[QUOTE=AK'z;43869873] what a load of waffle.[/QUOTE] if you had better knowledge of the english language, or perhaps better skills in debating/discussing, you might be able to actually explain your opinion/view of the matter as opposed to posts like this one. so, like I said: more proficiency with chosen form of expression = raise in quality of expression. [editline]11th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=mchapra;43869923]But I am not you seem to be under the impression that more complex music = more good music. This is really not the case since music isn't something you can put an objective measurement on.[/QUOTE] is english your first language? because if it isn't that's understandable, but if it is then I don't see how you can read this [QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869871]it doesn't mean that it's impossible to create a hyper-complex symphony that is still objectively bad or at least not enjoyable to listen to.[/QUOTE] direct contradiction of what you're accusing me of saying and still claim that's what i'm saying.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869871]the more complex your art is, the more articulate you are in that form of expression.[/QUOTE] What no, this is totally wrong. A ton of art is good because of it's ability to give off complex ideas with SIMPLE artwork. you can look at a painting that's so well painted you think it's actually a photo and know it's good, but that doesn't make it BETTER then a painting that uses 4 colors and minimal lines to portray it's imagery, some would argue that the latter is harder to do and thus better. Only comparing art objectively is ridiculous. You can also add in way more details until it's a fucking mess of shit, it would look worse then said masterpiece painting with 4 colors but be technically more complex. And what makes music more complex, amount of notes? difficulty in playing it? how well it flows? You're grossly oversimplifying things.
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;43869978]What no, this is totally wrong. A ton of art is good because of it's ability to give off complex ideas with SIMPLE artwork. you can look at a painting that's so well painted you think it's actually a photo and know it's good, but that doesn't make it BETTER then a painting that uses 4 colors are minimal lines to portray it's imagery, some would argue that the latter is harder to do and thus better. Only comparing art objectively is ridiculous.[/QUOTE] what you said has nothing to do with what you're responding to. I said it makes you more articulate. being articulate is not an automatic guarantee that you'll actually articulate anything. having the capability as a musician to create music with sprawling complexity is a liberty that will give you immeasurable freedom in the process of creation. that's not a guarantee of quality and I'm not claiming it is. very often, stripping music down to a simpler form vastly improves it.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869934]if you had better knowledge of the english language, or perhaps better skills in debating/discussing, you might be able to actually explain your opinion/view of the matter as opposed to posts like this one. so, like I said: more proficiency with chosen form of expression = raise in quality of expression.[/QUOTE] look donkey kong, I don't know what point you were ever trying to make but know that I am actually quite hungry right now.
[QUOTE=Hakita;43869161]why does every single music thread outside the music section have to be shit in facepunch it feels like everytime one of these threads pops up in sensationalist headlines or the videos section it goes almost the exact same way "wow <modern popular band> is shit" "they're not as good as <old popular band>" "this isn't real music" then someone makes a joke (or sometimes even a serious post) about modern music sucking someone replies with a long post with a ton of tagged songs saying "you're dumb" (seriously, if you do this, just link them, dont tag them) and throw in a couple of mentions of the Beatles and Daft Punk and boom thats a facepunch music thread for you[/QUOTE] don't forget the mandatory "rap isn't real music" post that some idiots feel the need to post
Are you just gonna sidestep and insult our "grasp on english" or come up with an actual counter point?
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869997]what you said has nothing to do with what you're responding to. I said it makes you more articulate. being articulate is not an automatic guarantee that you'll actually articulate anything. having the capability as a musician to create music with sprawling complexity is a liberty that will give you immeasurable freedom in the process of creation. that's not a guarantee of quality and I'm not claiming it is. very often, stripping music down to a simpler form vastly improves it.[/QUOTE] That isn't what you said at all, You said that a more complex piece of music is OBJECTIVELY BETTER, having the ability compose a complex piece of music tends to mean you can also make good music, but it is not an objective measurement as your posts seem to imply.
[QUOTE=mchapra;43870040]Are you just gonna sidestep and insult our "grasp on english" or come up with an actual counter point?[/QUOTE] I wasn't insulting him. I was using his poor contribution to the discussion as an example. [editline]11th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;43870055]That isn't what you said at all, You said that a more complex piece of music is OBJECTIVELY BETTER, having the ability compose a complex piece of music tends to mean you can also make good music, but it is not an objective measurement as your posts seem to imply.[/QUOTE] you can go ahead and quote where I said that then
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870069]his poor contribution to the discussion[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/Emoticon-Think.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=AK'z;43870076][img]http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/Emoticon-Think.gif[/img][/QUOTE] "what a load of waffle"
What the fuck kind of Starbucks infused bullshit is going on
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870069] you can go ahead and quote where I said that then[/QUOTE] Ok [QUOTE=Bruhmis;43869832]there is nothing stopping someone from enjoying 5 straight minutes of someone strumming the same chord on an out of tune guitar, and liking it far better than the complete works of Ludwig Van Beethoven. that is personal experience,[B] and if that person tried to argue that there's nothing about the music of Beethoven that's objectively better, there's a noval's worth of factual information that directly refutes that claim.[/B][/QUOTE] But whatever you're just gonna sidestep this and say "No that isn't what I meant at all why don't you learn English"
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870110]"what a load of waffle"[/QUOTE] & baked beans. thx, my lunch is sorted.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870069] you can go ahead and quote where I said that then[/QUOTE] if you weren't saying that I don't really get what point you're trying to make. If someone is 'capable' of making complex art/music/literature but chooses to make minimalist or simplistic works, then the fact that they can make complex stuff doesn't come into account
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;43870128]Ok But whatever you're just gonna sidestep this and say "No that isn't what I mean tat all why don't you learn English"[/QUOTE] doesn't even have the word complex in it anywhere.
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;43869561] i don't think that we're never going to listen to anything we listen to now ever again, or that we'll somehow forget all of the music we listen to [/QUOTE] I know I'm being optimistic but things like Last FM will keep our listening habits alive. I always find myself looking back and revisiting stuff this way.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870144]doesn't even have the word complex in it anywhere.[/QUOTE] For someone who claims that knowledge of the English language is paramount, you seem to have no idea what an implication is.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870144]doesn't even have the word complex in it anywhere.[/QUOTE] Are you fucking kidding me with this, you didn't ask me to find my EXACT wording in your posts, this carries the same meaning of my words unless you prove me otherwise. You compared Beethoven to a song with one note, how is that [B]not[/B] talking about the complexity Jesus Christ, I even said you'd sidestep it like this and you DID IT ANYWAY.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;43870138]if you weren't saying that I don't really get what point you're trying to make. If someone is 'capable' of making complex art/music/literature but chooses to make minimalist or simplistic works, then the fact that they can make complex stuff doesn't come into account[/QUOTE] you're not wrong but I don't really see your point. if you choose to make minimalist music then it doesn't matter, but what I said is that being more articulate in any form of expression gives you the capability to be better at that form of expression. if you don't use it then it changes nothing but that doesn't negate its value.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43870177]you're not wrong but I don't really see your point. if you choose to make minimalist music then it doesn't matter, but what I said is that being more articulate in any form of expression gives you the capability to be [B]better [/B]at that form of expression. if you don't use it then it changes nothing but that doesn't negate its value.[/QUOTE] that's a big word. Do you think Genesis were better at expressing themselves than Wavves?
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;43870171]Are you fucking kidding me with this, you didn't ask me to find my EXACT wording in your posts, this carries the same meaning of my words unless you prove me otherwise. You compared Beethoven to a song with one note, how is that [B]not[/B] talking about the complexity Jesus Christ, I even said you'd sidestep it like this and you DID IT ANYWAY.[/QUOTE] if I said that I thought complexity is the only quality beethoven had then I guess that post would suffice but I didn't say that at all and I don't think that either. at the very least one could say that beethoven's music has variety compared to the strumming of a single chord which benefits its longevity, that's one example not related to complexity.
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