Harry Styles: "One Direction are bigger than the Beatles"
193 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hakita;43870927]so what define music's objective quality are attributes that make music enjoyable, but attributes the majority like are more valuable than other attributes, but its not about the majority choosing and music can be good without having these attributes or bad while having them
am i misunderstanding you? because this seems like the least objective and reliable objective scale i've heard of[/QUOTE]
I've exhausted my vocabulary here but I'll try to use examples to explain it further.
the first example I used was rush. they have musical/lyrical complexity, they have innovative/unique music, they've got a lot going for them but I don't like the sound of their music. lots of people do but I personally don't. the subjective part of that is that I don't like their sound, the part that I think is objective is their qualities which I've just listed. if I did happen to like their sound, those other attributes would make me enjoy their music even more.
bob dylan is one of my absolute favorite artists period, but his musical skills are bare minimal. he's got lyrical complexity, social relevance and cultural significance. those are the things that make his music significant to me and a lot of other people. if he was a better musician and was capable of making more complex music than I would most probably enjoy his music a lot more, if he had no lyrical complexity then I might enjoy a song or two of his but overall I'd like his music drastically less.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=AK'z;43870999]you are the master of waffle.[/QUOTE]
there is only waffle in this world and I am he
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871027]capable of making more complex music.[/QUOTE]
what do you bloody mean by complex music...
you mean abstract? more instruments? more experimentation?
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871034]what do you bloody mean by complex music...
you mean abstract? more instruments? more experimentation?[/QUOTE]
he can barely play a chord on his guitar and sing at the same time. so more instruments would be part of it, yeah. more layers, more melodies, actual rhythm as opposed to rant-singing.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871027]I've exhausted my vocabulary here but I'll try to use examples to explain it further.
the first example I used was rush. they have musical/lyrical complexity, they have innovative/unique music, they've got a lot going for them but I don't like the sound of their music. lots of people do but I personally don't. the subjective part of that is that I don't like their sound, the part that I think is objective is their qualities which I've just listed. if I did happen to like their sound, those other attributes would make me enjoy their music even more.
bob dylan is one of my absolute favorite artists period, but his musical skills are bare minimal. he's got lyrical complexity, social relevance and cultural significance. those are the things that make his music significant to me and a lot of other people. if he was a better musician and was capable of making more complex music than I would most probably enjoy his music a lot more, if he had no lyrical complexity then I might enjoy a song or two of his but overall I'd like his music drastically less.[/QUOTE]
so basically what you're saying is you respect Rush, even though you don't like them and you like Bob Dylan, even though his music is simple and therefore objectively inferior?
doesn't seem like much of an objective scale to me
just seems like you like things about Rush but don't like them overall because of their sound, not that there are objective points that make Rush an objectively good band, just your subjective opinion
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871077]he can barely play a chord on his guitar and sing at the same time. so more instruments would be part of it, yeah. more layers, more melodies, actual rhythm as opposed to rant-singing.[/QUOTE]
this is your subjective definition of what is good songwriting, nothing objective
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871077]he can barely play a chord on his guitar and sing at the same time.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwSZvHqf9qM[/media]
i dunno mang, if I was watching this live, I'd be pretty staggered. Seeing as playing the harmonica alone is difficult as shit, I think he's pretty ruthless with it.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871077]more layers, more melodies, actual rhythm[/QUOTE]
ok, I think we're done here.
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871088][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwSZvHqf9qM[/media]
i dunno mang, if I was watching this live, I'd be pretty staggered.[/QUOTE]
circa '76 which was kind of his happy balance in terms of musicianship. if the bob dylan of 1963 had those skills there would be a whole lot of music that would be much better because of it.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871125]circa '76 which was kind of his happy balance in terms of musicianship.[/QUOTE]
no no no
but you said
[quote]he can barely play a chord on his guitar and sing at the same time.[/quote]
you can't have two conflicting opinions at any given time. :eng101:
[QUOTE=Hakita;43871081]
this is your subjective definition of what is good songwriting, nothing objective[/QUOTE]
there's nothing really subjective about that. a lot of bob dylan's stuff straddles the line between music and spoken word, some of it leaning more towards the latter. so if it's so absent of musicality that it's almost not even music anymore then I don't see how it's subjective to say that as a piece of music it would have benefited from being more musical.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871160]no no no
but you said
you can't have two conflicting opinions at any given time. :eng101:[/QUOTE]
I actually originally wrote "could barely play" but then I realized it kind of sounded like I was under the impression he was dead so I just quickly changed it to avoid snarky responses.
he's obviously become a better musician since his early days. he even composed a film around the time of that video. the point is that if the music from 1963-1970 would have been written at a time where he had those skills it would have been better music. he's still not that great but at least ''can barely play a chord and sing at the same time'' is less accurate.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871181]there's nothing really subjective about that. a lot of bob dylan's stuff straddle's the line between music and spoken word, some of it leaning more towards the latter. so if it's so absent of musicality that it's almost not even music anymore then I don't see how it's subjective to say that as a piece of music it would have benefited from being more musical.[/QUOTE]
spoken word music is still music
explain to me how adding more melodies and layers makes a song objectively superior and not subjectively
also, your definition of what makes a song better is not the same as mine, doesn't that mean it's not objective?
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871181]there's nothing really subjective about that. a lot of bob dylan's stuff straddle's the line between music and spoken word, some of it leaning more towards the latter. so if it's so absent of musicality that it's almost not even music anymore then I don't see how it's subjective to say that as a piece of music it would have benefited from being more musical.[/QUOTE]
spoken word is definitely a style of music.
whatever music course you're on, you're better off dropping out and doing something useful.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hakita;43871221]
explain to me how adding more melodies and layers makes a song objectively superior and not subjectively
also, your definition of what makes a song better is not the same as mine, doesn't that mean it's not objective?[/QUOTE]
for the love of god stop asking him questions :(
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871225]for the love of god stop asking him questions :([/QUOTE]
no
im not stopping until the waffle flood reaches my door and i get something to snack on
[QUOTE=Hakita;43871221]
explain to me how adding more melodies and layers makes a song objectively superior and not subjectively
[/QUOTE]
didn't say that
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871225]spoken word is definitely a style of music.[/QUOTE]
did I say spoken word music? no, I certainly didn't.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871249]didn't say that[/QUOTE]
you said "there's nothing really subjective about that", meaning that it must be an objective definition then
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871249]did I say spoken word music? no, I certainly didn't.[/QUOTE]
you said "so if it's so absent of musicality that it's almost not even music anymore", implying that spoken word is somehow lesser music
Fun fact: the Beatles started off making the same type of music that one direction does. They did play more instruments yeah, but it was still vague bullshit that made all women between the ages of 10-20something moist.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MHkgwA8t-g[/url]
Though ofc the beatles went on to make much better music after that, we still have time to see if one direction does that.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;43865911]Except the Beatles were good.[/QUOTE]
One Direction's songwriting is way better as far as pop songs go.
[QUOTE=Hakita;43871285]you said "so if it's so absent of musicality that it's almost not even music anymore", implying that spoken word is somehow lesser music[/QUOTE]
spoken word is not spoken word music
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871315]spoken word is not spoken word music[/QUOTE]
but spoken word defines spoken word music, unless you're actually saying that spoken word as an element in music is not music but spoken word music somehow is..?
also, still waiting on that objective definition
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871315]spoken word is not spoken word music[/QUOTE]
care to name any tracks to back this up or....
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871338]care to name any tracks to back this up or....[/QUOTE]
Spoken Word: [video=youtube;uWUgnQ1ovBA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWUgnQ1ovBA[/video]
Spoken Word Music: [video=youtube;Agtparb19a0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agtparb19a0[/video]
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871365]Spoken Word:
Spoken Word Music:[/QUOTE]
and what exactly makes Dylan spoken word but not spoken word music
[QUOTE=Hakita;43871434]and what exactly makes Dylan spoken word but not spoken word music[/QUOTE]
I said he straddled the line. there's almost no music to some of his stuff. Gates of Eden is literally just spoken word with miscellaneous strumming subtly in the background. the one thing that distinguishes it from non-music is so negligible that it might as well not be music at all.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871465]I said he straddled the line. there's almost no music to some of his stuff. Gates of Eden is literally just spoken word with miscellaneous strumming subtly in the background. the one thing that distinguishes it from non-music is so negligible that it might as well not be music at all.[/QUOTE]
he's not straddling any line
if his music counts as spoken word then it counts as spoken word music, it doesn't matter how subtle the music is, its still there and therefore it is spoken word music
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871365]Spoken Word: [video=youtube;uWUgnQ1ovBA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWUgnQ1ovBA[/video]
[/QUOTE]
that's an audiobook you wally...
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871465]Gates of Eden is literally just spoken word[/QUOTE]
no
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hakita;43871496]he's not straddling any line
if his music counts as spoken word then it counts as spoken word music, it doesn't matter how subtle the music is, its still there and therefore it is spoken word music[/QUOTE]
he has no clue
You have one of the most complicated definitions of music ever.
Like sit back dude just enjoy it for what it is.
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871530]that's an audiobook you wally...
[/QUOTE]
it's a spoken word performance, he did many of them live as well. he also did spoken word music with kurt cobain once. spoken word is a type of performance, you're wrong, end of story.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871747]it's a spoken word performance, he did many of them live as well. he also did spoken word music with kurt cobain once. spoken word is a type of performance, you're wrong, end of story.[/QUOTE]
you posted narration.
you said bob dylan is a narrator.
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871880]you posted narration.
you said bob dylan is a narrator.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVLxX35-C0U[/url]
^ spoken word performance
[url]http://www.nelson-atkins.org/images/PDF/Calendar/PoetrySlam_SpokenWord.pdf[/url]
^ definition of spoken word according to people who's careers revolve around preserving and showcasing art
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871920][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVLxX35-C0U[/url]
^ spoken word performance
[/QUOTE]
sounds nothing like bob dylan
[QUOTE=AK'z;43871955]sounds nothing like bob dylan[/QUOTE]
how many fucking waffles have you had
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;43871972]how many fucking waffles have you had[/QUOTE]
do you have any idea what waffling means
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