Amnesty International: Israeli authorities must stop demolitions of Palestinian homes - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;22708400]The further and further we go back in time, the less civility we're going to find. The UN wasn't founded till' 1945 so they couldn't condemn something when they weren't around obviously. But if you're refering to the Jordan annexation of the West Bank that was only recognized by one country the UK. I have reason to believe that was condemned by the UN as an illegal occupation, I'll try finding something, but please understand it's difficult to find things very early in the history of the UN. You can try and discredit the UN as much as you wish, but the fact remains your country owes its existence to it.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure that the Zionists would have declared independence with or without international recognition, and that some time afterwards they would have been recognized had they not done anything "bad" (for example pushing away the native population of lands they got during the war of independence, which they probably would have not done and would have given these lands back if they didn't have international recognition back then).

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22711322]I'm pretty sure that the Zionists would have declared independence with or without international recognition, and that some time afterwards they would have been recognized had they not done anything "bad" (for example pushing away the native population of lands they got during the war of independence, which they probably would have not done and would have given these lands back if they didn't have international recognition back then).[/QUOTE] So rather than acknowledging the issue at hand, you're going to make an assumption and make a justification based off that.

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;22711678]So rather than acknowledging the issue at hand, you're going to make an assumption and make a justification based off that.[/QUOTE] All I'm saying is that Israel doesn't owe it existence to the UN. And also, if it had followed all the resolutions against it, it would probably cease to exist.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22712241]All I'm saying is that Israel doesn't owe it existence to the UN. And also, if it had followed all the resolutions against it, it would probably cease to exist.[/QUOTE] Another assumption? Burnemdown I'm disappointed. not at all, it would of been just on the 67' borders potentially at peace considering the illegal occupation has been a huge determining factor of Palestinian resistance.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22699414]Nah, I understand why you'd think that. I'm notorious for playing the devil's advocate in just about any situation. I can totally agree with someone and still take the opposite side of most debates. It makes me annoying as hell, for which I apologize, but it also lets me see both sides of an argument, which is important even if I don't agree with one. Like with the whole Israel thing, I don't actually agree with about half the shit they do at all, this house bulldozing mess is totally fucked up on their part, but I understand that they are the biggest gun in the region and that complaining about it doesn't accomplish anything. Understanding their motivations and working within them is the only way you are going to gain any sort of ground.[/QUOTE] so you're basically a troll

[QUOTE=thisispain;22721001]so you're basically a troll[/QUOTE] basically just a more "sophisticated" one

[QUOTE=thisispain;22721001]so you're basically a troll[/QUOTE] Devil's Advocacy and trolling are different.

[QUOTE=thisispain;22721001]so you're basically a troll[/QUOTE] No I legitimately have a problem when people are obviously blind to the other side of an issue, even if I agree with them. It's the "death to Israel" bullshit in this case that just screams utter and complete ignorance of the issue.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22723056]No I legitimately have a problem when people are obviously blind to the other side of an issue, even if I agree with them. It's the "death to Israel" bullshit in this case that just screams utter and complete ignorance of the issue.[/QUOTE] If anyone is blindly supporting one side here, it's the U.S.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22723089]If anyone is blindly supporting one side here, it's the U.S.[/QUOTE] What should the U.S. do?

[QUOTE=GunFox;22723124]What should the U.S. do?[/QUOTE] Perhaps a more vocal stance on Israel. No better way to get better relations with middle eastern states than to start saying that Israel is going over the line.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22723124]What should the U.S. do?[/QUOTE] Take a more balanced approach to the conflict, (They're the only nation that doesn't condemn Israel and all they do is veto every resolution negative of Israel) even though the pro-Israel lobby is around, though that's why Jimmy Carter begin criticizing Israel when he was OUT of office. The Presidents need more courage to stand up to AIPAC really. I mean I realize if your policies don't involve blindly supporting Israel you'll never be Prez but someone has got to something.

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;22713242]Another assumption? Burnemdown I'm disappointed. not at all, it would of been just on the 67' borders potentially at peace considering the illegal occupation has been a huge determining factor of Palestinian resistance.[/QUOTE] Argh, let's just go back to this post since this "what if" scenario talk won't accomplish anything: [QUOTE=Sporkfire;22708400]The further and further we go back in time, the less civility we're going to find. The UN wasn't founded till' 1945 so they couldn't condemn something when they weren't around obviously. But if you're refering to the Jordan annexation of the West Bank that was only recognized by one country the UK. I have reason to believe that was condemned by the UN as an illegal occupation, I'll try finding something, but please understand it's difficult to find things very early in the history of the UN. You can try and discredit the UN as much as you wish, but the fact remains your country owes its existence to it.[/QUOTE] Finding these things shouldn't be too hard, for example it's not a problem finding resolutions concerning Israel in its first years, like its acceptance into the UN. I'm pretty sure however that there are no such resolutions or condemnations. Here's a list of Security Council resolutions concerning Jordan, none are condemning of it in any way:[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions_concerning_Jordan[/url] The same thing is true with the Egyptian blockade nowadays - Not only Israel but also Egypt are blockading Gaza, and everyone is upset only with Israel, even other Arab states, which I would think would try to convince Egypt to stop it and only then work towards getting Israel to stop it. Israel might owe its existence to the UN, but it still doesn't have to follow its every whim, especially not when it condemns only Israel and not its enemies or neighbors.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22724567]Take a more balanced approach to the conflict, (They're the only nation that doesn't condemn Israel and all they do is veto every resolution negative of Israel) even though the pro-Israel lobby is around, though that's why Jimmy Carter begin criticizing Israel when he was OUT of office. The Presidents need more courage to stand up to AIPAC really. I mean I realize if your policies don't involve blindly supporting Israel you'll never be Prez but someone has got to something.[/QUOTE] To what end? Israel is an ally. A powerful and stable ally in an unpleasant region. Even Turkey regularly gets unpleasant, and they have been decent allies with the United States for some time. The factions who stand to gain by us failing to support Israel are the same factions who hate the United States. The US is pursuing a policy which best benefits the US. Which is precisely what I pay my tax dollars for them to do. The US has said "Hey go easy on it", but that is about the extent to which you can expect US response.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22723124]What should the U.S. do?[/QUOTE] Stop supporting Israel.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22725422]To what end? Israel is an ally. A powerful and stable ally in an unpleasant region. Even Turkey regularly gets unpleasant, and they have been decent allies with the United States for some time. The factions who stand to gain by us failing to support Israel are the same factions who hate the United States. The US is pursuing a policy which best benefits the US. Which is precisely what I pay my tax dollars for them to do. The US has said "Hey go easy on it", but that is about the extent to which you can expect US response.[/QUOTE]I don't see how Israel being an ally in an unpleasant region really has got to do with anything. People seem to overlook the fact that it became an unpleasant reason to the U.S due to its support of Israel. A lot of nations do not support nations, yet they're allies with the U.S. And how does aligning with a nation that the majority of the world condemns beneficial to the U.S? This is not why I pay my tax dollars, to make the vengeful nation of Israel a stronger army but to instead to focus on our own national interests. And you can't say shit to Israel without being called anti-Semitic by AIPAC. Remember how the pro-Israeli lobby and Republicans accused the Obama Administration of secretly supporting Palestine just for expressing their disappointment in Israel for further expanding their illegal settlements while peace talks were in place? They practically decide who becomes President, which is the reason why the U.S supports Israel as well as the large sums of donations. [release] [B]Voting power[/B] According to Bard,[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#cite_note-JVLMitchellBard-1"][2][/URL] "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor." He cites that "Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group"]ethnic group[/URL]" and that of the American Jewish population [B]"roughly 94 percent live in thirteen key [/B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College"][B]electoral college[/B][/URL] [B]states" which alone "are worth enough electoral votes to elect the president. [/B]If you add the non-Jews shown by opinion polls to be as pro-Israel as Jews, it is clear Israel has the support of one of the largest [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto"]veto[/URL] groups in the country." [B]Bard goes on to say that for[/B] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congress"][B]United States congressmen[/URL] "there are no benefits to candidates taking an openly anti-Israel stance and considerable costs in both loss of campaign contributions and votes from Jews and non-Jews alike[/B]."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#cite_note-JVLMitchellBard-1"][2][/URL] "Most important fact about the Jewish vote in America", according to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_S._Helmreich&action=edit&redlink=1"]Jeffrey S. Helmreich[/URL] of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Center_for_Public_Affairs"]Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs[/URL], "lies in the fact that it is a uniquely swayable bloc. [...] The issue of support for Israel [by a candidate] has proven capable of spurring a sizable portion of Jews to switch parties—in large enough numbers to tip the scales in national or statewide elections. Moreover, the "Israel swing vote" is especially open to political courtship because, unlike the interests of other minority groups, support for Israel has long been compatible with traditional Republican and Democratic [B]agendas. … On the other hand, being distinctively unsupportive of Israel can significantly hurt a candidate's chances[/B]."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#cite_note-voting-32"][33][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#cite_note-33"][34][/URL][/release]

Or in other words, we control your country :jewish:.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22731436]Or in other words, we control your country :jewish:.[/QUOTE] israel has US by the balls basically what a shame you guys should fuck off

NO!!! You're our country now. Don't resist and we won't go Bar-Mitzva on your ass.

The last paragraph fucking pissess me off. Campaign donations "Political campaign contributions", writes Mitchell Bard, "are also considered an important means of influence; typically, Jews have been major benefactors." According to Bard, objective quantification that the impact of campaign contributions have on "legislative outcomes, particularly with regard to Israel-related issues" is difficult. This is because raw analysis of contributions statistics do not take into account "non-monetary factors" and whether or not "a candidate is pro-Israel because of receiving a contribution, or receives a donation as a result of taking a position in support of Israel."[2] Targeting AIPAC does not give donations directly to candidates, but those who donate to AIPAC are often important political contributors in their own right. In addition, AIPAC helps connect donors with candidates, especially to the network of pro-Israel political action committees. AIPAC president Howard Friedman says “AIPAC meets with every candidate running for Congress. These candidates receive in-depth briefings to help them completely understand the complexities of Israel’s predicament and that of the Middle East as a whole. We even ask each candidate to author a ‘position paper’ on their views of the US-Israel relationship – so it’s clear where they stand on the subject.” [35] This process has become more targeted over time according to Bard, "In the past, Jewish contributions were less structured and targeted than other interest groups, but this has changed dramatically as Israel-related political action committees (PACs) have proliferated."[2] Among politicians considered unfriendly to Israel who AIPAC has helped defeat include Cynthia McKinney, Paul Findley, Earl Hillard, Pete McCloskey, Senators William Fulbright and Roger Jepson, and Adlai Stevenson in his campaign for governor of Illinois in 1982.[36] The defeat of Charles H. Percy, Senator for Illinois until 1985, has been attributed to AIPAC-co-ordinated donations to his opponent after he supported the sale of AWACS planes to Saudi Arabia. Donations included $1.1 million on anti-Percy advertising by Michael Goland, who was also a major contributor to AIPAC.[36] Former executive director of AIPAC, Tom Dine, was quoted as saying, "All the Jews in America, from coast to coast, gathered to oust Percy. And the American politicians - those who hold public positions now, and those who aspire - got the message".[37]

"Demolition and eviction orders do not just destroy people’s homes. They also take away their possessions and their hopes for a secure future," said Philip Luther. Bullshit, they have had half a century for "a secure future". Yea it does look bad if you look at it from the outside. Israeli are destroying Palestinian homes, that's what you are being told. Have you actually been there? Have you lived in Israel? The houses are built illegaly and are using Israeli resources without paying anything. As a tax payer this would piss me off. These people don't contribute to the society so noone wants them. Have you ever seen the Egyptian wall blockade? Do you know what they do to Palestinians who try to pass it? They shoot at them. Not even the Egyptians, their brothers in faith, want them. Starpluck, you are so informed and know this subject inside out. Why don't you post this then? [URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64H3D320100518"]Article[/URL] Why doesn't Amnesty critisize Hamas for demolishing Palestinian homes? If this had occured in any other country there would be no news about it. But NO! Israel can't perform legal acts because some dude in an organization critisized them. Lastly, starpluck could you tell me where are you from?

Actually the article was posted some time ago, and starpluck is a Muslim from the US of A.

Yea, I don't care that much for Israel to read all the retarded posts. I just read starpluck's ones and it looks as he is trying to justify his hatred for Israel by posting anti - Israeli articles regarding an obvious [B][U]TWO SIDED[/U][/B] conflict.

[QUOTE=Aidos;22732733]"Demolition and eviction orders do not just destroy people’s homes. They also take away their possessions and their hopes for a secure future," said Philip Luther. Bullshit, they have had half a century for "a secure future". Yea it does look bad if you look at it from the outside. Israeli are destroying Palestinian homes, that's what you are being told. Have you actually been there? Have you lived in Israel? The houses are built illegaly and are using Israeli resources without paying anything. As a tax payer this would piss me off. These people don't contribute to the society so noone wants them. Have you ever seen the Egyptian wall blockade? Do you know what they do to Palestinians who try to pass it? They shoot at them. Not even the Egyptians, their brothers in faith, want them. Starpluck, you are so informed and know this subject inside out. Why don't you post this then? [URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64H3D320100518"]Article[/URL] Why doesn't Amnesty critisize Hamas for demolishing Palestinian homes? If this had occured in any other country there would be no news about it. But NO! Israel can't perform legal acts because some dude in an organization critisized them. Lastly, starpluck could you tell me where are you from?[/QUOTE] I already addressed your main point in this thread as a response to Devidore, dig it up and read it. Yea that article was already posted. And 3 I'm a Jewish Israel.

Well that's how it is usually in an argument between two sides, it's up to each side to present his arguments, and a person shouldn't be expected to present facts supporting the other guy's views, that's up to him. [editline]11:05PM[/editline] [QUOTE=starpluck;22733023]I already addressed your main point in this thread as a response to Devidore, dig it up and read it. Yea that article was already posted. And 3 I'm a Jewish Israel.[/QUOTE] Well I'm a Muslim America then.

Israely* American*

Israeli*, -snip-.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22732794] Muslim from the US of A.[/QUOTE] [Citation Needed]

[QUOTE=starpluck;22733154][Citation Needed][/QUOTE] Well I remember a thread where you said you believe Islam is the true religion because the guys who wrote the Quran knew something about the earth or the stars or something like that, and it was really advanced and ahead of its time, that this is proof that Islam is the true religion. The thread was about a Muslim guy who wanted to explain to everyone that Islam is the religion of peace. I asked a few questions there myself and you answered several questions people asked.

why does it matter where he's from