[QUOTE=darunner;46211621][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest[/url][/QUOTE]
Can't issue a citizen's arrest for civil offenses. Being undocumented in the United States is not a criminal offense.
[QUOTE=GunFox;46211979]Can't issue a citizen's arrest for civil offenses. Being undocumented in the United States is not a criminal offense.[/QUOTE]
From this: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_United_States[/url]
[quote]Most states have codified the common law rule that a warrantless arrest may be made by a private person for a felony, misdemeanor or "breach of peace". A breach of peace covers a multitude of crimes in which the Supreme Court [B]has even included a misdemeanor seatbelt violation[/B] punishable only by a fine. [/quote]
If they can do it for a seatbelt violation, I'm sure there's even murkier loopholes for this kind of stuff. Especially when you have this,
[quote][quote]837. A private person may arrest another:
For a [B]public offense[/B] committed or attempted in his/her presence.
When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.
When a felony has been in fact committed, and he or she has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.[/quote]
[B]"Public offense" is read similarly as breach of peace in this case and includes felonies, misdemeanors and infractions.[/B] Note that there is generally no provision for an investigative detention by a private person under the law. With certain exceptions (see below) an arrest must be made. [B]"Holding them until the police get there", is simply a form of arrest.[/B] The officer is accepting the arrest and processing the prisoner on behalf of the private person[/quote][quote][B]Private persons are occasionally granted immunity from civil or criminal liability like the police are when arresting others.[/B] While the powers to arrest are similar, police are entitled to mistake of fact in most cases, while citizens can be held to a stricter liability depending on the individual state.[/quote]
[editline]12th October 2014[/editline]
As for the "Aren't militias illegal?", you can just say "freedom of assembly" + "2nd amendment" and have a field day in court.
There's a lot of stuff that codifies a militia and its purposes, but there's nothing that specifically says militias are [I]illegal.[/I]
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46211162]Not necessarily. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law, so you could view it as a citizens arrest since they are being turned over to border patrol instead of being kept by the militia....[/QUOTE]
IMO citizen's arrests are extremely shaky, especially when any actual force is involved. You are fully and completely liable for any injury your might cause in the course of your little vigilante arrest.
Also, since deadly force is absolutely NOT authorized for citizens to use in making an arrest, there is no reason for any of these idiots to carry guns if their intention is to make a citizen's arrest.
Among the many reasons this is a terrible, terrible idea:
-These people are not properly trained at all.
-Having guns makes the situation much, much more dangerous for all parties involved.
-Unless you actually witness someone cross a border, you have not witnessed them committing a crime, which is a requirement for a citizen's arrest. Regular citizens do not have the right to detain random people and hit them up for documentation in an attempt to prove they are committing a crime.
-We have professional, paid police and border patrol agents who handle this, not gun-toting rednecks. It's not 1775 anymore.
-Most of these people are super fucking racist. They are motivated by the idea that these sub-human brown people are swarming over the border to shit out anchor babies and take all their jerbs and cancel Christmas and replace it with a sombrero-related holiday. They are not the people who should be enforcing border security. Spend five minutes on any militia forum and try to count the posts that AREN'T racist. These are hateful people who fantasize about the day they get to shoot some beaners and brag about it.
This is a dangerous, horrible idea and anyone with two brain cells should be able to see it. If the state legislators in the Southwest had any brains at all (and weren't just as racist as half the white people out in the desert with guns in their hands) this would be completely illegal.
[QUOTE=Adlertag1940;46210348]Rather have them then not.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you never know when those bloody Redcoats are gonna come and take America back.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;46212142]Yeah, you never know when those bloody Redcoats are gonna come and take America back.[/QUOTE]
Being a resident on the east coast, I'm always vigilant
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]IMO citizen's arrests are extremely shaky, especially when any actual force is involved. You are fully and completely liable for any injury your might cause in the course of your little vigilante arrest.
Also, since deadly force is absolutely NOT authorized for citizens to use in making an arrest, there is no reason for any of these idiots to carry guns if their intention is to make a citizen's arrest.
Among the many reasons this is a terrible, terrible idea:
-These people are not properly trained at all.
-Having guns makes the situation much, much more dangerous for all parties involved.
-Unless you actually witness someone cross a border, you have not witnessed them committing a crime, which is a requirement for a citizen's arrest. Regular citizens do not have the right to detain random people and hit them up for documentation in an attempt to prove they are committing a crime.
-We have professional, paid police and border patrol agents who handle this, not gun-toting rednecks. It's not 1775 anymore.
-Most of these people are super fucking racist. They are motivated by the idea that these sub-human brown people are swarming over the border to shit out anchor babies and take all their jerbs and cancel Christmas and replace it with a sombrero-related holiday. They are not the people who should be enforcing border security. Spend five minutes on any militia forum and try to count the posts that AREN'T racist. These are hateful people who fantasize about the day they get to shoot some beaners and brag about it.
This is a dangerous, horrible idea and anyone with two brain cells should be able to see it. If the state legislators in the Southwest had any brains at all (and weren't just as racist as half the white people out in the desert with guns in their hands) this would be completely illegal.[/QUOTE]
Of course you are responsible for anything that happens when you make an arrest. I don't disagree with you there.
However, you say deadly force is not authorized for citizens to use while making an arrest, but it's not authorized for police under normal circumstances either. If the police's intention is just to ticket or arrest people, why do they carry guns? The answer is because they are in a situation where they may have to defend themselves and need the protection. It's the same when you may have to deal with armed cartel members.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't thing militias doing this a good idea at all, mainly because of the very reasons you listed. But honestly, maybe this could finally be the incentive our government needs to realize that they can't leave our border unsecured anymore. When citizens are so unsatisfied by your job that they are doing it themselves, you have a problem....
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46213682]
However, you say deadly force is not authorized for citizens to use while making an arrest, but it's not authorized for police under normal circumstances either. If the police's intention is just to ticket or arrest people, why do they carry guns? The answer is because they are in a situation where they may have to defend themselves and need the protection. It's the same when you may have to deal with armed cartel members.[/quote]
They are choosing to put themselves in that situation, it's not their job or their responsibility. Saying "We need guns because the cartel might shoot at us while we're detaining migrants" just tells me they shouldn't be doing that in the first place.
[quote]Don't get me wrong here, I don't thing militias doing this a good idea at all, mainly because of the very reasons you listed. But honestly, maybe this could finally be the incentive our government needs to realize that they can't leave our border unsecured anymore. When citizens are so unsatisfied by your job that they are doing it themselves, you have a problem....[/QUOTE]
I think they're out there because right-wing media lies to them and hypes up the supposed threat that immigrants pose to their jobs or culture. I'm not particularly concerned about illegal immigration, because our agricultural businesses are totally dependent on the cheap labor. Drugs are going to come in to the country as long as there is demand, regardless of how much money you throw at the border.
If you wanna spend your time and effort doing the government's job for them because they're coming up short, go volunteer at a free health clinic or build a house for Habitat. It'll do a hell of a lot more good than harassing some dude that just wants to pick strawberries and send a few bucks home to his family.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]IMO citizen's arrests are extremely shaky, especially when any actual force is involved. You are fully and completely liable for any injury your might cause in the course of your little vigilante arrest. [/quote]
Force is usually involved in all arrests. And, as I put in a previous post, they are not [I]always[/I] liable for any injury involved in the act.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]Also, since deadly force is absolutely NOT authorized for citizens to use in making an arrest, there is no reason for any of these idiots to carry guns if their intention is to make a citizen's arrest. [/quote]
To reiterate another poster - deadly force is to be avoided even by police when making an arrest so your point is moot.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]Among the many reasons this is a terrible, terrible idea:
-These people are not properly trained at all. [/quote]
On the contrary, I'm quite sure they are well knowledged in how to handle a gun and how to look over a field spotting someone. So far, no deaths have occurred through their acts, as sketchy as they are. And they've only held a few immigrants and waited for border patrol to take them immediately. They're not putting these people in their own lock-ups and jails.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]-Having guns makes the situation much, much more dangerous for all parties involved.[/quote]
What a useless statement; it's not like they're handing guns out to 3 year-olds. As I just said, no deaths have been caused due to their actions, especially gun related ones on their part. I suppose we ought to take away guns from police because their presence just make whole cities much, much more dangerous. This post is just dumb fear-mongering.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]-Unless you actually witness someone cross a border, you have not witnessed them committing a crime, which is a requirement for a citizen's arrest. Regular citizens do not have the right to detain random people and hit them up for documentation in an attempt to prove they are committing a crime. [/quote]
This is true, but I'm sure these people are actually watching the border and aren't twenty miles into the country searching for random Mexicans to cuff.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]-We have professional, paid police and border patrol agents who handle this, not gun-toting rednecks. It's not 1775 anymore. [/quote]
I agreed with your post up to the dumb comment "it's not 1775 anymore". So what, it's not 1980 or 1400 anymore either.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]-Most of these people are super fucking racist. They are motivated by the idea that these sub-human brown people are swarming over the border to shit out anchor babies and take all their jerbs and cancel Christmas and replace it with a sombrero-related holiday. They are not the people who should be enforcing border security. Spend five minutes on any militia forum and try to count the posts that AREN'T racist. These are hateful people who fantasize about the day they get to shoot some beaners and brag about it.[/quote]
I'm just gonna ask for a source saying the [I]majority[/I], as you say, are this way.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46212135]This is a dangerous, horrible idea and anyone with two brain cells should be able to see it. If the state legislators in the Southwest had any brains at all (and weren't just as racist as half the white people out in the desert with guns in their hands) this would be completely illegal.[/QUOTE]
So making freedom of assembly and the 2nd amendment illegal would be a good idea? Because that's essentially what this all boils down to.
---
This whole situation isn't the most optimal solution to the issue but when the federal government does a shit job of keeping the border secure, it was bound to attract a few people like this to take it upon themselves to "fix it" to their own ideas. Stopping groups like this is treating the symptom of the problem.
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;46210484]Why?[/QUOTE]
Lack of trust, civil unrest, stale piss response times, shady government, list goes on.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46212148]Being a resident on the east coast, I'm always vigilant[/QUOTE]
We've got enough crazy here without having to babysit your guy's crazy. I don't think you have to worry about us returning to take back the colonies.
Those fucking assholes, they should learn that the only men who can steal poor people away from their family and future is the government!
[QUOTE=SexualShark;46209624]how long until the cartels get bored and start killing them
i give it a month[/QUOTE]
That's not gonna end well for either side. It'll re-affirm exactly what these militia yahoos believe in. Also as a side note, a lot of militias are now getting Veterans in their ranks as well as being trained by them. They're no longer a bunch of rednecks shooting off guns, they're not military trained but they're more than likely better trained then most of the Cartel people.
[editline]12th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;46209748]Serious question. Are militias allowed in the US anymore? I thought the old militias were pretty much made into the National Guard.[/QUOTE]
Old militias were but you can still legally create new militias.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;46214945]We've got enough crazy here without having to babysit your guy's crazy. I don't think you have to worry about us returning to take back the colonies.[/QUOTE]
Dont listen to them guys, its just a feint to get us to lower our guard!
militias are a disgrace to the US and contribute to making us look like out of touch imbeciles
when people go around with guns, living in their own world, thinking that the US is a fake government and they have no obligation to abide by any laws you're going to have serious issues
the Bundy case is a shining example of everything wrong with militias, these crazies using force to break the law and the government standing down because these ranchers were frankly too big to fail, many of these militias hold far too much power
hell for several years the FBI has found that one of the biggest threats to the US are militias
[url]http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens[/url]
people who don't think any laws concern them do not belong in our society, it's really as simple as that
if you don't like a law then try and change it, but when ~300 million other people don't see a problem with a law such as taxes then shut the fuck up, pay your taxes, and own your guns
[QUOTE=JerryK;46216310]hell for several years the FBI has found that one of the biggest threats to the US are militias
[url]http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens[/url][/QUOTE]Oh? So is this like or is this not like that time the FBI declared Juggalos a gang?
I get your point but that's not a good way to demonstrate it.
Well as long as the militias take these people and send them back to their native country in a humane and easy way I do not see a problem with this.
It could be the fucking Canadians and I still would want them to fuck off. There's laws for gaining citizenship, don't break them because you don't like them.
[QUOTE=JerryK;46216310]militias are a disgrace to the US and contribute to making us look like out of touch imbeciles
when people go around with guns, living in their own world, thinking that the US is a fake government and they have no obligation to abide by any laws you're going to have serious issues
the Bundy case is a shining example of everything wrong with militias, these crazies using force to break the law and the government standing down because these ranchers were frankly too big to fail, many of these militias hold far too much power
hell for several years the FBI has found that one of the biggest threats to the US are militias
[URL]http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens[/URL]
people who don't think any laws concern them do not belong in our society, it's really as simple as that
if you don't like a law then try and change it, but when ~300 million other people don't see a problem with a law such as taxes then shut the fuck up, pay your taxes, and own your guns[/QUOTE]
Sovereign Citizens and US Militia Movement are two different entities entirely though... :v:
Also the Bundy Ranch Standoff(or Battle of Bunkerville), was a case of civil disobedience with ranchers in Nevada/Utah. It's part of the Sage Brush Rebellion which in part has garnered support from the NAMM when instead of a simple knock on the door and request to come to court they sent a literal armed convoy of guys with sniper rifles and shit. People were reasonably upset, and quiet a few of the South West and Pacific Northwest militia's were rightfully pissed off considering even when they weren't there, local law enforcement was already starting to harass them for voicing support for the Sage Brush Rebellion.
The drug cartels have hired killers that are a lot crazier than any US militia member. If you're a private citizen trying to defend an abstract concept like a border and you are up against people with nothing to lose, you're going to be on the losing end of that deal. You kill them, so what? There's plenty more where that came from. They kill you and your crusade is over.
A border isn't an abstract concept. It's a line drawn in the dirt and agreed to by multiple governments.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46219441]there is a LOT of crossover between sovereign citizens and militia groups[/QUOTE]
That's just a given man, paramilitary and anti-government sorta goes hand and hand most of the time.
So many sects in NAMM, it's pretty irritating actually.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;46211533]I'd wager that as soon as White People™ started getting killed en-mass there would be a veritable media explosion. Every news station in the US would fucking explode.[/QUOTE]
You turned this into a racial thing
good job!
You're also ignoring the fact that there are several white mexicans who are undoubtedly victims as well. One other thing you forgot is that texas isn't 100% white, we have lots of blacks, mexicans, and asian too, if somehow a cartel did a mass killing in Dallas people would be very pissed even though it'd very likely pocs would be victims along with whites.
[QUOTE=xxMarathonxx;46217794]Well as long as the militias take these people and send them back to their native country in a humane and easy way I do not see a problem with this.
It could be the fucking Canadians and I still would want them to fuck off. There's laws for gaining citizenship, don't break them because you don't like them.[/QUOTE]
Citizenship is awarded by blood, not by merit; so don't brag so much about it m8.
Also, what's so wrong with other North Americans working or opening businesses in the US with as little bureaucratic hustle as possible?
I can't get my head around it; on one hand the US is at the forefront of globalization, promoting it and w/e, and then you have shit like this where you jail up latino kids and their moms because they passed an imaginary border.
[editline]13th October 2014[/editline]
As for drug cartels, It's actually a good idea to fight them back like they did in Brazil with the favela thugs.
[QUOTE=Adlertag1940;46210348]Rather have them then not.[/QUOTE]
Why would you actually allow people to form violent gangs that call themselves militias?
[QUOTE=Killuah;46220942]Why would you actually allow people to form violent gangs that call themselves militias?[/QUOTE]
Evidence of violence being where, exactly?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46212084]From this: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_United_States[/url]
If they can do it for a seatbelt violation, I'm sure there's even murkier loopholes for this kind of stuff. Especially when you have this,
[editline]12th October 2014[/editline]
As for the "Aren't militias illegal?", you can just say "freedom of assembly" + "2nd amendment" and have a field day in court.
There's a lot of stuff that codifies a militia and its purposes, but there's nothing that specifically says militias are [I]illegal.[/I][/QUOTE]
A seatbelt infraction is still a criminal offense. Also bear in mind that only the feds are allowed to enforce immigration. They are allowed to specifically task local agencies with tasks, but even local law enforcement isn't given basically any authority to enforce immigration.
[QUOTE=GunFox;46221922]A seatbelt infraction is still a criminal offense. Also bear in mind that only the feds are allowed to enforce immigration. They are allowed to specifically task local agencies with tasks, but even local law enforcement isn't given basically any authority to enforce immigration.[/QUOTE]
Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, which falls under the "public offense" I listed in that post.
And it doesn't really matter what local law enforcement is given and not, these are just people doing 'citizen arrests' for 'public offense' - and handing them over to the feds, the border patrol.
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