Ammon Bundy and 3 other arrested near Oregon refuge; shots fired - Polidicks

of course it is highly likely but it isn't a good thing that we could have a lot of dead people on both sides for what amounts to fucking nothing

[QUOTE=Fort83;49620832]Got a link? And hah, shoot their way out. They will get put down on if they try.[/QUOTE] It's from the channel posted last page. They seem to only be doing short bursts of streams. [editline]27th January 2016[/editline] I understand their anger and frustration with getting their land taken over by the government for a wildlife reserve, but I think it's a dumb thing to kill for, and an even dumber thing to die for. [editline]27th January 2016[/editline] [B]Ammon Bundy tells occupiers to leave wildlife refuge [/B] [url]http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/267270-ammon-bundy-tells-occupiers-to-leave-wildlife-refuge[/url]

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49620771]whats with this gleeful attitude about them potentially storming the feds and getting killed while also killing federal agents? this is not a good thing at all, jesus christ[/QUOTE] I'm "gleeful" about two things: 1) Proof exists that the militiamen were in the wrong here and were causing tensions to escalate in the first place (by threatening to try and shoot their way out of this situation; whether or not they'll actually go through with it, who knows, but the threat has already been made)-- thereby damaging the credibility of these kinds of fringe militiamen (not only the ones involved in this particular situation, but in general) and lending justified credit where it's deserved to the federal government and law enforcement. 2) This shit will finally be over with. Seriously, I'm sick of hearing about it. It was retarded from the beginning, and apparently, it'll be just as retarded in the end as well. My only hope is none of the agents and officers on the scene are killed or injured. Because they're just doing their jobs, and they've conducted themselves in a very decent fashion and have shown a lot of restraint throughout this whole thing. [editline]28 January 2016[/editline] As far as the militiamen go, you've misunderstood. I don't care whether they're taken alive or killed. It doesn't matter to me. I won't feel happy or sad about that.

Proof existed when they took over in the first place.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49620997]Proof existed when they took over in the first place.[/QUOTE] Questionable in the eyes of a lot of people, some of which claimed it was just like any other old protest out there and amounted to nothing more than civil disobedience. Except with guns. There is no question at all now since they've threatened to fight it out this way. If you're going to resort to violence, you'd better have a good reason why-- otherwise, your credibility is demolished and people won't want anything to do with you. Which is, again, what we've been seeing with other militias and their members who had previously voiced support for them (and are now distancing themselves, as JJF pointed out).

[QUOTE=timothy80;49620712]they are livestreaming again. talk of them shooting their way out with them loading up on ammo[/QUOTE] I was under the impression that the feds after arresting bundy and whatnot gave them an option to simply walking away. It seems like they are going for martyrdom.

[QUOTE=GunFox;49620004]They aren't terrorists. They are protestors more than anything. They are occupying a government structure and show effectively zero hostility towards civilians. Redneck morons? Sure. Terrorists? Not really.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Aman;49619567]Also the liberal application of the word terrorist is wrong and has become some fucked up newspeak. It is way overused and I don't think it applies. At the very worst they are criminals for squatting and trespassing, not "terrorists".[/QUOTE] These guys are Sovereign Citizens. They don't recognize the authority of anyone higher than a County Sheriff. They have zero respect for Federal law. The FBI's declared Sovereign Citizens a domestic terrorist group and a greater domestic threat than ISIS - because of extremist morons like these guys. [URL="http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/15/3739909/oregon-standoff-malheur-grand-jury-explainer/"]These guys would establish their own court in defiance of state and federal authority, which they believe is wholly illegitimate, and go and "arrest" local officials under the authority of their own self-declared court.[/URL] [URL="http://www.peacock-panache.com/2016/01/oregon-insurgents-bloodbath-violence-against-police-21545.html"]And they're calling for other extremists to commit violence against police.[/URL] [QUOTE=Aman;49619671]It's really what UncleJimmema said. How is this simply not civil disobedience? This is way closer to a protest than terrorism and flaunting the word terrorism around just makes it lose its meaning, like it already has.[/QUOTE] Civil disobedience doesn't include threatening to kill law enforcement officers and calling for violent resistance when the authorities try to restore law and order. These guys would have established their own extrajudicial legal system. This isn't a protest, this is armed insurrection over the fact that two people convicted of arson on Federal property were sent to jail. [URL="http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/27/3743264/media-militia-oregon-protesters/"]This is an opinion piece, but it outlines while describing them as "protesters" is inaccurate, and the media keeps doing it.[/URL]

Its not an armed protest if you're threatening to kill people.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49620782]has anyone said "this is gonna be awesome fuck yeah lmao owned" or anything along those lines[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Raidyr;49446226]It would be cool to watch the National Guard grease these losers though.[/quote]

If these guys get killed they will become martyrs for other armed idiots. If they give them what they want other armed idiots will do the same thing. Imprisioning them isn't much of an option either because of their agressiveness and desire to die before going to prision. I have a feeling this guys knew this before starting all of this.

[QUOTE=Propane Addict;49617947]They've captured a government building through force and are continuing to occupy it. I'd consider it an act of war.[/QUOTE] Like when the Scott Walker protesters charged into the Capitol Building and barricaded the doors?

This whole thing is just confusing. So the FBI shot first. Killed someone. Yet people in this thread still think somehow the people who just took over a fucking shack in the woods with some guns SAYING(not fucking threatening) they would defend themselves with them? And people are actually rooting for the fucking government here? What the fuck are you SUPPOSED to do if someones trying to kill you with a fucking gun? Seriously, can any of you who are crying against this ask yourself that? People calling them terrorists are flat out retarded no way around that, you have 0 fucking idea of what you are saying. They are not causing terror, their purpose IS NOT to cause terror, they arent trying to divide anyone, they arent in it for their OWN personal gain. They are in it for someone completely different who isnt even at the fucking shack and never were. Who if ANY of you who are shitting on them fucking read about it will see the government is being pretty fucking garbage. For anyone who doesnt realize it yet, burning land is actually one of the most popular ways to promote GROWTH on your fucking land as it completely removes all the garbage dead shit and essentially resets everything for lack of a better word. Its extremely common. And for the people who think this is anything like Waco, whether you are for the militia or not, are probably the most ignorant people here who have 0 fucking idea what Waco was, what led to it, and WHY it got so bad, and while the government and the ATF were absolute shit with Waco, the main crew involved in Waco and the cult were 10x worse and caused most of the instigation. Like holy fuck, this is literally the 2nd amendment in action, while on a very small scale, for an individual. The only threat these people have made is to fucking defend themselves. They never threatened to shoot first, only to die defending themselves. Thats not even fucking close to a terrorist threat.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49621704]did the fbi shoot first? if they did, what if there was a credible threat? if the guy got out of the car with a gun in hand i think it'd be fair for the fbi to plug him up also they are destroying the land beyond just burning it, the stream had excavation and road pavement, as well as uncontrolled cattle grazing (which can fuck shit up)[/QUOTE] Yes, from everything ive tried finding, the FBI did shoot first, and the guy drove off in a panic trying to ram them and survive. So the guy DID try getting some of them, but more so in a panic survival state then trying to hurt them first outright. I wont praise them for every action, the paved road is pretty fucking stupid, and uncontrolled cattle grazing can fuck shit up, these people are not saints, they arent perfect, but holy fuck none of them deserved to be killed and honestly I see them more in the right overall than the wrong. Does no one question why the government wants them off that land so badly for themselves that at this point is gonna be going through two fucking trials just after the first one almost? This is like the fucking Netflix series "Making a Murderer" escept instead of Avery, its this shit so maybe in 15 years we will get a new special going over how fucked up the law enforcement was during this. But a lot of this started over a bullshit Arson claim, when the type of "Arson" used is funnily enough used by our fucking government and firefighters for the exact same thing they were doing. My fucking grandparents have someone come do it to their land every few years. Its that fucking common.

Wasn't the land designated a reserve for an endangered tortoise or something? If so, it's not their land anymore. Not their say to burn it. It's shitty for them, but not worth taking up arms.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621717]Yes, from everything ive tried finding, the FBI did shoot first, and the guy drove off in a panic trying to ram them and survive. So the guy DID try getting some of them, but more so in a panic survival state then trying to hurt them first outright. I wont praise them for every action, the paved road is pretty fucking stupid, and uncontrolled cattle grazing can fuck shit up, these people are not saints, they arent perfect, but holy fuck none of them deserved to be killed and honestly I see them more in the right overall than the wrong. Does no one question why the government wants them off that land so badly for themselves that at this point is gonna be going through two fucking trials just after the first one almost? This is like the fucking Netflix series "Making a Murderer" escept instead of Avery, its this shit so maybe in 15 years we will get a new special going over how fucked up the law enforcement was during this. But a lot of this started over a bullshit Arson claim, when the type of "Arson" used is funnily enough used by our fucking government and firefighters for the exact same thing they were doing. My fucking grandparents have someone come do it to their land every few years. Its that fucking common.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/33998881-75/watch-robert-lavoy-finicum-shot-and-killed-while-charging-at-police-self-identified-driver-says.html.csp"]Witness reports state he:[/URL] - drove off from the roadblock (where the others were being arrested) with three other occupants in his vehicle; running away from a police checkpoint without authorization is generally considered an aggressive act - got out at the end of the chase and charged at armed officers; the militia movement initially claimed he was executed on his knees because they want to paint this as an out-of-control police brutality situation He was on record over the past several weeks about his intention to suicide by cop rather than be taken peacefully. The government wants them off that land because they're armed insurrectionists who don't recognize Federal law and have threatened to shoot any law enforcement officer who tries to restore order. The community wants them out (even if some of the community support the broad ideals they claim to represent). Most of them aren't even locals and they've shown up to bring an armed standoff to a rural town that never asked for it. The thing is, the two guys convicted of arson, which started this in the first place, have basically accepted their sentences and have asked the militia [I]not[/I] to seize federal property in support of their situation. These people are deluded beyond reason and because no charges were laid in the Nevada standoff they're confident they can get away with it again since daddy Cliven did. Well, now two Bundy sons are in custody and a man is dead, and the militia movement is seeing calls for increased bloodshed in retaliation. GREAT JOB, AMMON BUNDY

[QUOTE=soulharvester;49621514].[/QUOTE] You realize that when you quote someone like that it provides a link to the full post that allows anyone to see how obviously you took my words out of context, right? A half joke at the of a post made after several more posts of endorsing non-confrontation does not a point make.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49621754][URL="http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/33998881-75/watch-robert-lavoy-finicum-shot-and-killed-while-charging-at-police-self-identified-driver-says.html.csp"]Witness reports state he:[/URL] - drove off from the roadblock (where the others were being arrested) with three other occupants in his vehicle; running away from a police checkpoint without authorization is generally considered an aggressive act - got out at the end of the chase and charged at armed officers; the militia movement initially claimed he was executed on his knees because they want to paint this as an out-of-control police brutality situation He's on record over the past several weeks about his intention to suicide by cop rather than be taken peacefully. The government wants them off that land because they're armed insurrectionists who don't recognize Federal law and have threatened to shoot any law enforcement officer who tries to restore order. The community wants them out (even if some of the community support the broad ideals they claim to represent). Most of them aren't even locals and they've shown up to bring an armed standoff to a rural town that never asked for it. The thing is, the two guys convicted of arson, which started this in the first place, have basically accepted their sentences and have asked the militia [I]not[/I] to seize federal property in support of their situation. These people are deluded beyond reason and because no charges were laid in the Nevada standoff they're confident they can get away with it again since daddy Cliven did. Well, now two Bundy sons are in custody and a man is dead, and the militia movement is seeing calls for increased bloodshed in retaliation. GREAT JOB, AMMON BUNDY[/QUOTE] "shoot any law enforcement officer who tries to restore order." What does "restore order" mean? I bet I can tell you. Shooting at them to remove them lol, so how the fuck do you defend against that. I knew he was spouting shit how hed rather die than go to jail, doesnt mean "suicide by cop" it means hed rather be dead than go to jail, so when it came to going to jail or die, he died. He clearly made retarded decisions, and charging at cops is a good way to get killed and I wont shit on the cops shooting a charging person. But so you would take 1 random idiot in the militias word as if its the entire groups(where if you actually fucking watched any of the live streaming for most of this would realize most people are against those fucking liars looking to cause a fuss) and then blame as if its the entire militia making shit up? When 1 of them that you linked me says it wasnt true? Really? Its nearly 50/50 with locales and people from other places. Well the community wanted Steve Avery out, and look at that whole situation, turned out Avery was innocent and letting the community decide put an innocent man in jail while a murderer roamed free. Ill stop being mainly for the people protesting once they start shooting first. Im talking about the actual land this entire dispute is over, not the random ass shack in the woods. This shitty shack doesnt mean shit.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621791]What does "restore order" mean? I bet I can tell you. Shooting at them to remove them lol, so how the fuck do you defend against that.[/QUOTE] I don't need to respond to you or finish reading your comment if you assume the cops were going to just go kill them all. They're digging trenches with a backhoe because they expect and [I]want[/I] a violent siege. They want a Waco so they can be martyrs and hopefully take down the US law enforcement system. The cops are instead waiting for them to leave and blocking the roads in and out, because there just might've been some lessons learned from Waco. [URL="https://twitter.com/jason_a_w/status/692415460105547776"]Someone laughably claimed that they were awaiting fucking ex-NAVY SEALs to parachute in to support them.[/URL]

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49621797]I don't need to respond to you or finish reading your comment if you assume the cops were going to just go kill them all.[/QUOTE] Im glad you jumped the gun as much as you did to assume that from me. But if you really think "restore order" is some codeword for "hug them out" then holy fuck, keep being delusional all you want, not my problem honestly. They arent planning to kill them all, but the people in that shack are really making it so the only way to remove them is force. So restoring order in that sense is force, which will end up with guns since the militia have fucking guns. Please think for 5 seconds before you try making some epic quip. Why are you so messed?

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621694] Like holy fuck, this is literally the 2nd amendment in action, while on a very small scale, for an individual. The only threat these people have made is to fucking defend themselves. They never threatened to shoot first, only to die defending themselves. Thats not even fucking close to a terrorist threat.[/QUOTE] I agree it doesn't make them terrorists (insurrectionist is a perfectly applicable description) but how is this at all "literally the 2nd amendment" in action? What has seizing government property and demanding sovereign independence and the release of prisoners got to do with the right to keep and bear arms? [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621791] Ill stop being mainly for the people protesting once they start shooting first.[/QUOTE] So short of actively murdering people you will be for the people protesting. Why? What gives them the right to seize land, damage public property, and make absurd political demands? Because you ~feel~ like the federal government has it out for these guys? That the BLM is a corrupt agency? If so this is absolutely not how you go about fixing that problem. People like you are enablers for this kind of reckless and immature behavior.

A lot of people left an hour or two ago. It's just 10-15 people now supposedly and they are on the edge of the refuge huddled around a campfire. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f4zR3Ey8ec[/url] EDIT: FBI has the girl on the phone right now asking them to pack up and leave. All of them believe they want to kill them as they leave and how they have drones everywhere watching them. They are also talking about "[B]SIGNS FROM GOD THAT HE'S PROTECTING US[/B]" like eagles and shit.

[video=youtube;72MJLxSTiGM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MJLxSTiGM[/video] 3:16 [QUOTE]There are no laws in this United States now! This is a free-for-all Armageddon. Any LEO or military or law enforcement or feds that stand up and fuck their oath — don't abide by their oath — are the enemy! If they stop you from getting here, [B]kill them![/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621694]The only threat these people have made is to fucking defend themselves. They never threatened to shoot first, only to die defending themselves. Thats not even fucking close to a terrorist threat.[/QUOTE] Would you like to reconsider these statements?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49621779]You realize that when you quote someone like that it provides a link to the full post that allows anyone to see how obviously you took my words out of context, right? A half joke at the of a post made after several more posts of endorsing non-confrontation does not a point make.[/QUOTE] You weren't so much endorsing non-confrontation as you were agreeing with most people that it was unlikely for this to become another full on shootout/siege like waco. That was from your first post in the thread and it came off more as you desiring to see people whom you politically disagree with slaughtered by the government even if it was unlikely, than a "joke". Along with sobotnik's constant dehumanizing of the protesters it seemed extremely hypocritical to see posters who typically claim to be progressive wanting to see a group of protesters who hadn't yet been violent get slaughtered by the government. It's exactly that kind of sentiment that makes people afraid of rapidly expanding authoritarian control from our government. And yes, I am aware of that feature, and I don't feel like I took your comment out of context whatsoever. You said it would be cool to watch them get fucking slaughtered, I'd probably be banned if I said anything similar to that about a minority group of nonviolent protesters regardless of context.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49621847]I agree it doesn't make them terrorists (insurrectionist is a perfectly applicable description) but how is this at all "literally the 2nd amendment" in action? What has seizing government property and demanding sovereign independence and the release of prisoners got to do with the right to keep and bear arms? So short of actively murdering people you will be for the people protesting. Why? What gives them the right to seize land, damage public property, and make absurd political demands? Because you ~feel~ like the federal government has it out for these guys? That the BLM is a corrupt agency? If so this is absolutely not how you go about fixing that problem. People like you are enablers for this kind of reckless and immature behavior.[/QUOTE] How could you fix any corrupt government agency without fuckloads of money+lawyers and connections? Please realize that sometimes something like this is the only way And how are they short of actively murdering people? Seriously, fuck off with your retarded fucking bullshit, they arent short of actively murdering people, they said they WOULD DEFEND THEMSELVES if they were getting shot at. How the fuck is that not a normal thing to say in that situation? What are you supposed to do? Just fucking die? Seriously, how the fuck can you even shit on people like that when someone like you would probably shit your pants with guns pointed at you and getting shot at? The 2nd amendment allows the people to form a militia against the government numbnuts and avoid straight up legal prosecution because of it(lol as if), this is ignoring the rights to bare arms. Thats pretty much what it boils down to. So the average American citizen can defend themselves from Government with firearms. [editline]27th January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49621921][video=youtube;72MJLxSTiGM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MJLxSTiGM[/video] 3:16 Would you like to reconsider these statements?[/QUOTE] No, because thats 1 fucking retard so thanks for proving my fucking point on you focusing on singular retards. Seriously, thank you lol. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Flaming, ban history" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621935]The 2nd amendment allows the people to form a militia against the government numbnuts and avoid straight up legal prosecution because of it(lol as if)[/QUOTE] Please for the love of God tell me you mistyped this sentence

[QUOTE=timothy80;49621880]EDIT: FBI has the girl on the phone right now asking them to pack up and leave. All of them believe they want to kill them as they leave. They are also talking about "[B]SIGNS FROM GOD THAT HE'S PROTECTING US[/B]" like eagles and shit.[/QUOTE] Sovereign Citizens have seriously messed-up ideas about how the US works, including indulging in magic realism. If you gave them a civics test it'd come back with an incoherent scrawl on the back about how this is a trap to bind them into corporate slavery and they, J'OHN SM:ITH, ESQ. without reservation UCC 1-207, refuse to sign their naturally-granted rights away to the international corporate jurisdiction you are trying to entrap them into joining. If that above paragraph makes no sense, congratulations, you are capable of too much critical thinking to become a Sovereign Citizen. [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621935]No, because thats 1 fucking retard so thanks for proving my fucking point on you focusing on singular retards. Seriously, thank you lol.[/QUOTE] These are the people who are still left on the fucking compound; there are multiple people in the video and if these guys are still there they represent roughly 15-20% of the group. There are plenty of retards like this posting on Facebook from the comfortable confines of their own homes who're too cowardly to go out and do it themselves. Face it, you've chosen to defend the short bus group in this thread.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;49621956]Please for the love of God tell me you mistyped this sentence[/QUOTE] "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." What do you think that translates into today lol? Militias are necessary, and if everything was fine and dandy, they wouldnt get completely prosecuted(they will), please dont think this Bundy shit is the best example for the 2nd amendment, its just an example.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49621964]"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." What do you think that translates into today lol? Militias are necessary, and if everything was fine and dandy, they wouldnt get completely prosecuted(they will), please dont think this Bundy shit is the best example for the 2nd amendment, its just an example.[/QUOTE] The framers of the Constitution would shit themselves when they find out you: - gave women the vote about a century ago - not only no longer enslave black people but gave them the vote - elected a black President - legalized gay marriage - levy significant taxes to support the most expensive and most powerful standing army on the planet What they wrote centuries ago is barely relevant anymore, and the Constitution's interpretations and case law are so dense I don't trust the opinion of anyone who can phrase an explanation of the meaning of the Second Amendment in one short paragraph without at least three footnotes. And that's you, right now, for suggesting that forming a militia and defying the government is granted Constitutional immunity from prosecution. Forming a militia itself, sure, just gathering people with weapons together is not illegal; pointing a gun at a member of law enforcement is a felony and aiming at a Federal officer is a federal felony. These dickbags have committed criminal acts and rightfully should be punished.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49621977]The framers of the Constitution would shit themselves when they find out you: - gave women the vote about a century ago - not only no longer enslave black people but gave them the vote - elected a black President - legalized gay marriage - levy significant taxes to support the most expensive and most powerful standing army on the planet What they wrote centuries ago is barely relevant anymore, and the Constitution's interpretations and case law are so dense I don't trust the opinion of anyone who can phrase an explanation of the meaning of the Second Amendment in one short paragraph without at least three footnotes. And that's you, right now.[/QUOTE] Lol okay dude, tell me more about what ifs. Then tell me how wrong they were when they literally wrote our 1st amendment. You know? The amendment and law America enforces better than ANY other country on the fucking planet? But please, WHAT IF more. Your point is garbage considering how well Americas done with those Amendments.

If you want to argue about the First Amendment you must first demonstrate how the cops are infringing on the Oregon militia's right to free speech. Otherwise you're distracting away from the point that you appear to have said that the 2nd Amendment enables militias to resist the government with weapons without fear of prosecution. You can just admit that that statement is insane and we can move on, if you want.