Ammon Bundy and 3 other arrested near Oregon refuge; shots fired - Polidicks

[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;49626063]I really don't see that guy going quietly.[/QUOTE] I don't either. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll just shoot himself, then the other guys will give up. Time will tell.

[QUOTE=timothy80;49625982]it's just four people now. One of them up and left around 9:30ish this morning. The rest are just staying because bloodbath moron has a felony warrent out on him now.[/QUOTE] Was he arrested or allowed to go free? Arresting them only proves them right in their minds and in the minds of their supporters.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49626026]Yeah it does. In fact, under the Militia Act of 1903(and subsequent National Defense Acts up till 1920), any able bodied male from the ages of 17 to 45 is a part of the unorganized militia. The 2nd Amendment as it was made for, was to act as not only a defense for the constitution against foreign invaders, but as a matter of dealing with domestic issues as well. Many of the founding fathers had made it clear that they hoped that US citizens would fight against the government they created, if it were to become out of line.[/QUOTE] Many of the founding fathers (Thomas Jefferson quoted below) wanted the constitution to be rewritten with every new generation (back then he suggested about every 20 years) in order for the laws to better fit the new times. I'm sorry for quoting so much, but I think his words are pretty persuasive. [QUOTE] Let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods. What these periods should be nature herself indicates. By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation. Each generation is as independent as the one preceding, as that was of all which had gone before. It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years should be provided by the constitution, so that it may be handed on with periodical repairs from generation to generation to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:42[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Forty years [after a] Constitution... was formed,... two-thirds of the adults then living are... dead. Have, then, the remaining third, even if they had the wish, the right to hold in obedience to their will and to laws heretofore made by them, the other two-thirds who with themselves compose the present mass of adults? If they have not, who has? The dead? But the dead have no rights. They are nothing, and nothing can not own something. Where there is no substance, there can be no accident [i.e., attribute]." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. (*) ME 15:42[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] [B]The idea that institutions established for the use of the nation cannot be touched nor modified even to make them answer their end because of rights gratuitously supposed in those employed to manage them in trust for the public, may perhaps be a salutary provision against the abuses of a monarch but is most absurd against the nation itself. Yet our lawyers and priests generally inculcate this doctrine and suppose that preceding generations held the earth more freely than we do, had a right to impose laws on us unalterable by ourselves, and that we in like manner can make laws and impose burdens on future generations which they will have no right to alter; in fine, that the earth belongs to the dead and not the living[/B]." --Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816. ME 15:46[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:4[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] The generations of men may be considered as bodies or corporations. Each generation has the usufruct of the earth during the period of its continuance. When it ceases to exist, the usufruct passes on to the succeeding generation free and unencumbered and so on successively from one generation to another forever. We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country." --Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1813. ME 13:270[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49626026]dealing with domestic issues as well. [/QUOTE] Ahh yes, domestic issues such as; "they tryin to arrust us for burnin their land" and "fucken obama that damn moozie" Get real dude, the militias in the US are largely outdated, totally pointless organisations that do nothing but antagonise and spout patriotic crap to rile up morons into joining them most of the time.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;49626212]Ahh yes, domestic issues such as; "they tryin to arrust us for burnin their land" and "fucken obama that damn moozie" Get real dude, the militias in the US are largely outdated, totally pointless organisations that do nothing but antagonise and spout patriotic crap to rile up morons into joining them most of the time.[/QUOTE]Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about. Every single official militia organization hasn't been a major topic in the news since 1993 and have been trying very hard to stay out of the limelight. I don't know what the hell you're talking about because they haven't "antagonized" anyone or been on any forum to even "spout patriotic crap" in the first place. What you're thinking of is the Oathkeepers and Minutemen, who admittedly have plenty of people who are also affiliated with various militias, but one is exclusively ex-military (that's what "Oathkeepers" means by the way) and the other is focused entirely on illegal immigration shenanigans. Either that or "SOVREN CITZENS YA'LL" who apparently have severe issues with reading comprehension, either way they're not a militia. An example of an honest-to-god militia is usCrow. Well, they're more like a nationwide network of affiliated militias. I'm absolutely certain you didn't even know about that until you've read this sentence, so I'll explain a bit further: They have a laundry list of things that disqualify potential members, the usual "we dont want no stinkin commies" stuff but also a pretty lengthy list of criminal misconduct and also personal misconduct not unlike the military's policies. Like almost every other militia out there (exceptions being the ones formed around religion or something like that) they try to maintain a level of professionalism, especially if they're ideologically committed to the idea of being a counterweight to a government that's taken up abusing the citizenry. Kind of counterproductive to be inflammatory and hostile if they're supposed to be the last good guys left to stand up for what's right. So yeah, you have usCrow and others like them who try very, very hard to avoid negative media attention and to be as close to a legitimate military force as they possibly can. I would link the site but honestly given the laws of some European countries I think I'd be indirectly getting people in trouble, namely because there's articles about how to manufacture things like explosives and armor plates and I don't think their disclaimer of "you need to get permission from the BATFE to do this" applies to people outside the USA.

Man, this whole business is gonna be fun to look back on in 10 years. Hell, it's fun to look at now.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49623371]i firmly believe that a militia can be a force of good even in times without tyranny, were it properly set up. could basically be a service club with a focus on firearm training, disaster response and preparedness, and, yes, tactical training. could do everything from picking up garbage by the road to assisting in search and rescue efforts. maybe coordination with local, state, and federal governmental agencies in response to disasters, natural or otherwise. i could see classes provided to the public for survival and self-defense as well as emergency first-aid and self-sustainability. members would probably also engage in combat training but that is to be expected considering it would still be a military force. in the off chance that they are needed for their military capabilities, they would have the training and teamwork built up to the levels necessary to be an effective fighting force. fuckers like these just shit all over that entire idea with their angry free men on the land shit and makes people think militias can only be about shouting "fuck the fed" and shooting guns at random shit[/QUOTE] So...the national guard? I know there are some militias in the country but they aren't really known by the general public.

[QUOTE=Govna;49626118]I don't either. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll just shoot himself, then the other guys will give up. Time will tell.[/QUOTE] Luck would be him turning himself in without a fight, not putting a bullet in himself. You're persistently bloodthirsty about these people in this thread.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49626855]So...the national guard? I know there are some militias in the country but they aren't really known by the general public.[/QUOTE]National Guard doesn't count as "the militia" in the traditional sense and hasn't for the better part of a century now.

I don't mind having gun club militias like them existing. I would just prefer they hold off doing shit like this until it was needed. Like when the Government unloads on protesters or bombs political opponents. Like some real Gaddafi style shit.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49627010]National Guard doesn't count as "the militia" in the traditional sense and hasn't for the better part of a century now.[/QUOTE] I don't see why not, it's just more well trained than the previous "you have a gun, you can walk, you're part of the militia now".

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49627010]National Guard doesn't count as "the militia" in the traditional sense and hasn't for the better part of a century now.[/QUOTE] It is imperative that this is known, because our civil liberties would be at a loss. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49627102]I don't see why not, it's just more well trained than the previous "you have a gun, you can walk, you're part of the militia now".[/QUOTE] The national guard didn't exist during the writing of the constitution, it is not what our founding fathers implied, yes implied, because there is no definition of what a militia is in the constitution. That's because the founding fathers already knew what a militia was and didn't expect its meaning to be trampled later on. But yeah, a good reason as to why like I said before is that the people wouldn't have the right to bear arms if the man in power could easily take them away.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49626918]Luck would be him turning himself in without a fight, not putting a bullet in himself. You're persistently bloodthirsty about these people in this thread.[/QUOTE] That's not realistic though. He's got a warrant out for his arrest, he's still sticking around with the others, and the fact that these guys together are holding out as vehemently as they are when all the others have gone means that they're the most radical ones of the bunch. I really doubt that this one guy is going to just give up now that there's a good chance he'll be convicted of a felony and sentenced to prison and after he's made such big talk about resisting and fighting to the death. He may. It's not impossible. But then again, he may not. There's a lot of motivation for him not to go quietly though, that cannot be denied. He's backed into a corner now: if he gives up, he faces the prospect of prison and completely ruins his credibility as a resistance fighter. Whatever the case, it must go one way or the other in the end. This will either conclude peacefully, or it will be bloody. Why do you care so much? Again, I just don't want any of the law enforcement officers on the scene to get hurt or killed since they're out there, you know, just doing their jobs. They're not the ones who started this bullshit, and they're not the ones who are in the wrong here. They don't deserve to die.

[QUOTE=Govna;49627184]That's not realistic though. He's got a warrant out for his arrest, he's still sticking around with the others, and the fact that these guys together are holding out as vehemently as they are when all the others have gone means that they're the most radical ones of the bunch. I really doubt that this one guy is going to just give up now that there's a good chance he'll be convicted of a felony and sentenced to prison and after he's made such big talk about resisting and fighting to the death. He may. It's not impossible. But then again, he may not. There's a lot of motivation for him not to go quietly though, that cannot be denied. He's backed into a corner now: if he gives up, he faces the prospect of prison and completely ruins his credibility as a resistance fighter. Whatever the case, it must go one way or the other in the end. This will either conclude peacefully, or it will be bloody. Why do you care so much? Again, I just don't want any of the law enforcement officers on the scene to get hurt or killed since they're out there, you know, just doing their jobs. They're not the ones who started this bullshit, and they're not the ones who are in the wrong here. They don't deserve to die.[/QUOTE] You didn't say realistically. You said "we'll get lucky". That implies it's a hopeful end, not the expected one. Why do I care? Maybe it's the fact that I don't like to be hopeful [I]any[/I] human being dies. Maybe it's more of a justice to have his ideals shot down one by one in court. Maybe I don't care for him to be a martyr for the next nutjob who wants to do this. No, they don't deserve to die but you're giving me a hard time believing that's a stance you're for.

large group of law enforcement went pass the roadblock in the past hour. +30 SUVs and a few cars. They are headed to the refuge. Media were asked to get away from the roadblock. EDIT: Just noticed that David Fry's twitter was deleted. His last few tweets was that they gave them final warning to leave and that they will not back down and wanting death by cop. EDIT2: Backhoe moved into refuge.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49627299]You didn't say realistically. You said "we'll get lucky". That implies it's a hopeful end, not the expected one. Why do I care? Maybe it's the fact that I don't like to be hopeful [I]any[/I] human being dies. Maybe it's more of a justice to have his ideals shot down one by one in court. Maybe I don't care for him to be a martyr for the next nutjob who wants to do this. No, they don't deserve to die but you're giving me a hard time believing that's a stance you're for.[/QUOTE] That implies it's the hopeful end for the [i]expected[/i] outcome. Again, be realistic. This is probably going to end with violence, and if/when it does, the best outcome we can hope for then is that it will be minimal. We've already had one shootout happen here, and that thinned the herd down when Bundy and his friends were arrested (and after Tarp Man was killed; I mean, he did say he'd rather die than be arrested). There's been a few other desertions since then that have helped as well. But there's still these last few holdouts, and the fact they've persisted for this long says they're the more radical ones of the bunch. This guy in particular, again, has a lot of motivation besides radicalism not to give up (since he's got a felony warrant on him now, plus he'd be completely going back on his word when he was talking about resisting to the end). My hope is this: in spite of everything, there isn't a big confrontation. The guy with the warrant doesn't try and fight desperately and instead just kills himself, and that motivates the others to see their situation is hopeless. Bundy's calls for them to surrender start resonating with them, and they give up. The threat desperate guy posed is completely eliminated, the remaining holdouts give up the idea of going on fighting, and everything is concluded. And I'm sorry to have to tell you this, again, but that outlook on things in general is just not realistic. Sometimes, people have to die. That's just the way things have to play out. Some people deserve to die for what they've done and what they plan to do. Or, if they don't outright deserve it, they invite it upon themselves by their own free will and their stupid decisions, and that's that; these kinds of people do not deserve any sympathy at all. These gentlemen are the latter: they've invited their fate upon themselves. Nobody's forcing them to do any of this, nobody's made this decision for them. They've chosen to hold out, warrant guy has chosen to not surrender peacefully and has said he'll fight to the death, and that's that. So I don't care what happens to them. I want this situation to conclude, as do plenty of other people. I want there to be no law enforcement casualties, because they've done nothing wrong. As for these remaining militia guys, again, I just don't care. If they all die, fine. If they all live, great. If one kills himself and that motivates the others to give up, great. They've made their own choices here, now they'll have to deal with the consequences of them. [editline]28 January 2016[/editline] And it doesn't make any difference whether or not their ideals are "picked apart in court" at this point; again, the major fringe militias that were voicing support for them have backed down. Ammon Bundy himself has said the remaining guys here need to give up. They've lost. Really, they lost before they even began. There's no glorious martyrdom to be had here anymore, and, again, the majority of fringe militias even agree on this. There never was. This whole thing was just stupid as hell.

lots of law enforcement coming and going from the refuge now. Truck went inside with equipment. [editline]28th January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Govna;49627490] And it doesn't make any difference whether or not their ideals are "picked apart in court" at this point; again, the major fringe militias that were voicing support for them have backed down. Ammon Bundy himself has said the remaining guys here need to give up. They've lost. Really, they lost before they even began. There's no glorious martyrdom to be had here anymore, and, again, the majority of fringe militias even agree on this. There never was. This whole thing was just stupid as hell.[/QUOTE] They lost the moment they invited the media to come hang out with them. They were expecting them to make them look like heroes, instead got a taste of reality when they all started making like look giant idiots. EDIT: More law enforcement going in. FBI took down their flood lights.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49626855]So...the national guard?[/QUOTE] National Guard is under control of the Federal Government as well as the State Government. It's not really a Militia, it's of a reserve force for the US Military.

FBI is removing barricade according to media. EDIT: Okay, - FBI Convoy went inside. 30+ vehicles. - [B]4 vehicles [/B] came out - They called a backhoe to come in - Truck with large equipment according to media was called in - FBI slowly removes barricade. - FBI removes barricade and is allowing media to come in.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49627102]I don't see why not, it's just more well trained than the previous "you have a gun, you can walk, you're part of the militia now".[/QUOTE]Well it ties in with what Alice_01 said here:[QUOTE=Alice_01;49627124]The national guard didn't exist during the writing of the constitution, it is not what our founding fathers implied, yes implied, because there is no definition of what a militia is in the constitution. That's because the founding fathers already knew what a militia was and didn't expect its meaning to be trampled later on. But yeah, a good reason as to why like I said before is that the people wouldn't have the right to bear arms if the man in power could easily take them away.[/QUOTE] Yeah when the shit happens they function relatively the same but the principle behind the 2nd Amendment is to provide an armed population as a counterbalance to the federal government in case it goes sour. Partially the militia was never codified as any one thing to assist in this, people would form their own little groups and units and then that would be both the military and the check against the military. Among the militias of today they're just continuing that practice, providing small military units as a check against a hypothetically bad government in the future. Having them controlled by the government in the way that the National Guard is completely defeats the purpose of that. On a more practical level they function like volunteer fire departments but their scope of operations mirrors the National Guard. (if they operate openly, many are "underground" because of various fears and concerns) These groups aren't ever in the news because all they do is plink targets, "train" (quite commonly this is airsoft and paintball) and on rare occasion look for missing kids or fill sandbags when there's a flood. That's why I took dispute with what HexapunK said, in reality militia "units" operate completely opposite to the loud, opinionated retard going on about obunglians illuminati conspiracies. Though that isn't to say their opinions don't overlap, there's obviously a bias toward conservatism and definitely strong libertarian views among that community.

roadblock confirmed gone and media is moving toward refuge. [editline]28th January 2016[/editline] 3 people have been arrested. One remains inside refuge. [editline]28th January 2016[/editline] Press conference in a few hours to announce arrests according to OPSNews.

I hope this guy surrenders quietly instead of either killing himself or trying to go down in a blaze of glory by trying to take a bunch of FBI down with him. I worry that he's too far down the sunk costs fallacy for this shitshow, though. His ego's painted him into a corner.

[video=youtube;arNQybbViNM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arNQybbViNM[/video] Meanwhile, from a comfortable, presumably-safe place in Nevada, Daddy Bundy wants the idiots to stick to their literal guns. Now there's one idiot left, and I'm guessing it's the guy who was shouting in the video. I hope he isn't stupid enough to shoot, because if he shoots outside the building at anyone, he's opted out of due process and ensured his self-fulfilling prophecy.

press conference about to begin [url]http://livestream.com/accounts/1864610/events/3314050[/url]

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49627585]Well it ties in with what Alice_01 said here: Yeah when the shit happens they function relatively the same but the principle behind the 2nd Amendment is to provide an armed population as a counterbalance to the federal government in case it goes sour. Partially the militia was never codified as any one thing to assist in this, people would form their own little groups and units and then that would be both the military and the check against the military. Among the militias of today they're just continuing that practice, providing small military units as a check against a hypothetically bad government in the future. Having them controlled by the government in the way that the National Guard is completely defeats the purpose of that. On a more practical level they function like volunteer fire departments but their scope of operations mirrors the National Guard. (if they operate openly, many are "underground" because of various fears and concerns) These groups aren't ever in the news because all they do is plink targets, "train" (quite commonly this is airsoft and paintball) and on rare occasion look for missing kids or fill sandbags when there's a flood. That's why I took dispute with what HexapunK said, in reality militia "units" operate completely opposite to the loud, opinionated retard going on about obunglians illuminati conspiracies. Though that isn't to say their opinions don't overlap, there's obviously a bias toward conservatism and definitely strong libertarian views among that community.[/QUOTE] Sorry I'm going to have to challenge your understanding of the 2nd amendment. The amendment was not written with the express purpose of the people having some sort of way of fighting back against the government, this is a half truth that has been perpetuated by NRA lobbyists for a good time now. The United States at the time had no standing army like we have today, the 2nd Amendment was written to allow the States to have the capability to raise a force in the case of national defense. This is why the phrase "well regulated" exists, meaning well trained and disciplined forces. It was not meant to explicitly imply that local yokels should be able to grab their hunting rifles and March into Congress in case of tyranny. At the time Militiamen were expected to supply their own weapons, which is facilitated by the phrase "right to bear arms". If you ever need proof of this read some George Washington quotes on the topic of the Militia. He had some strong words to say about un trained militiamen impeding the war effort.

They will be showing the shooting to put the rumors to rest. THIS WILL BE GOOD [editline]29th January 2016[/editline] welp, it shows he did try to run and then charged at law enforcement while trying to reach for his gun. [editline]29th January 2016[/editline] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ[/url] They released the footage for anyone to see. Obvious NFSW.

Got a link to the video?

It was a bit hard to make everything out, but sad to see Lavoy stretch out his arm like that after he was lying on the ground. It doesn't look like there was any wrong-doing by the authorities, things might have been better if they didn't use lethal force when his truck was speeding towards the road block, though I can't necessarily fault them for doing that.

[QUOTE=timothy80;49628241][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ[/url] [B]NSFW NSFW NSFW Robert "LaVoy" Finicum is shot in this video[/B] They released the footage for anyone to see.[/QUOTE] I predict that it's already being called doctored/fake on Facebook by the idiots who support/ed these guys.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49628422]I predict that it's already being called doctored/fake on Facebook by the idiots who support/ed these guys.[/QUOTE] well thats pretty clear there, he had his hands up, then starts drawing something from his jacket ~9 minutes if you don't want to sit through everything