• Fidel Castro dead at age 90
    239 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SirJon;51431400]"vilified by history"? Are you joking? Che is cheered as "hero" in a substantial part of Latin America. He was a straight up psychopath. [B]Hitler in comparison to him seems "merely misguided".[/B] I joked earlier about Fidel, you could argue for hours about him. Obviously, history isn't black and white, and Fidel is a good example of this. But Che, despite what pop culture t-shirts love to say, was not even close to a glorious idealistic revolutionary who only wanted people to be happy. Fidel is a grey area, as said before in this thread. But in order to excuse Che you'd have to be a literal sociopath, or just misinformed.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/le-miiverse-resource/images/e/e9/I_don't_even.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150826203108[/IMG] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Image Macro" - Blazyd))[/highlight]
Well I suppose I should clear that up: I'm not excusing Hitler or saying he's anything other than a monster. Hence, "in comparison" and "seems". I do admit, that was poorly formulated.
[QUOTE=SirJon;51431400]"vilified by history"? Are you joking? Che is cheered as "hero" in a substantial part of Latin America. He was a straight up psychopath. Hitler in comparison to him seems "merely misguided". [/QUOTE] Pretty sure Hitler knew what he was doing. Che and Fidel, as bad as they may be, never wanted to exterminate entire races based on purity or murdered millions upon millions of people. By default, Hitler is much worse, what did Che want to do which was remotely close to Hitler?
[QUOTE=Firecat;51431667]because some immigrants families had everything and more taken by this man and he is now dead[/QUOTE] Basically this. I feel like anyone who's celebrating are people who've been directly effected by his power. I have a friend from Cuba who had to lose everything to get here because of him iirc and they're pretty happy he's gone.
[QUOTE=SirJon;51431400]"vilified by history"? Are you joking? Che is cheered as "hero" in a substantial part of Latin America. He was a straight up psychopath. Hitler in comparison to him seems "merely misguided". I joked earlier about Fidel, you could argue for hours about him. Obviously, history isn't black and white, and Fidel is a good example of this. But Che, despite what pop culture t-shirts love to say, was not even close to a glorious idealistic revolutionary who only wanted people to be happy. Fidel is a grey area, as said before in this thread. But in order to excuse Che you'd have to be a literal sociopath, [B]or just misinformed[/B].[/QUOTE] Saying that Che was a psychopath is misinformed. Let me put it this way: Nelson Mandela said Che was "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom". The people that Che opposed were just as bad, if not worse than what became of Castro's Cuba. Do yourself a favor and look into how the people of Cuba were treated under Fulgencio Batista's regime. It was a brutal, oppressive regime, possibly even more than Castro's Cuba. And yes, Castro [I]is[/I] vilified by history. Cuba was buddy-buddy with the Soviet Union, and that essentially made them our enemies. Che is lauded as a hero in Latin America because Fidel elevated him to an almost mythical status. He's not some great hero, he's certainly not a psychopath, he was just a revolutionary who fought for his own beliefs against imperialism and what he viewed as injustice. You want a sign that history isn't black and white? Don't look at Castro, look at Che.
This could only have happened in 2016.
Well you gotta give him, he sure is good at leading. But still, fuck him
[media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/802499192237080576[/media] Jesus Christ hahaha
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51432088][media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/802499192237080576[/media] Jesus Christ hahaha[/QUOTE] donald is sad one of his wifus has passed
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51432088][media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/802499192237080576[/media] Jesus Christ hahaha[/QUOTE] he goes on to write; [QUOTE]"Today, the world marks the passing of a brutal dictator who oppressed his own people for nearly six decades. Fidel Castro’s legacy is one of firing squads, theft, unimaginable suffering, poverty and the denial of fundamental human rights. "While Cuba remains a totalitarian island, it is my hope that today marks a move away from the horrors endured for too long, and toward a future in which the wonderful Cuban people finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve. "Though the tragedies, deaths and pain caused by Fidel Castro cannot be erased, our administration will do all it can to ensure the Cuban people can finally begin their journey toward prosperity and liberty. I join the many Cuban Americans who supported me so greatly in the presidential campaign, including the Brigade 2506 Veterans Association that endorsed me, with the hope of one day soon seeing a free Cuba."[/QUOTE]
I wonder if it would have remained as totaltarian as it is today if the United States had atleast tried to negotiate with it and not tried to isolate it for decades.
[QUOTE=Ithon;51432331]donald is sad one of his wifus has passed[/QUOTE] He hated Castro though.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51432390]he goes on to write;[/QUOTE] yeah, set it free by enacting another embargo. trump is a walking talking flipflop that fell in some dog shit.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51432412]I wonder if it would have remained as totaltarian as it is today if the United States had atleast tried to negotiate with it and not tried to isolate it for decades.[/QUOTE] It's already opened up in a few ways IIRC. During Jimmy Carter's time a lot of the really heinous shit was reeled in. It's a shame that the reforms going forward will seem to be about letting capitalists in rather than more local autonomy and freedom of press/speech tho
It's a pretty interesting coincidence that Castro died on Pinochet's birthday.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51432732]It's a pretty interesting coincidence that Castro died on Pinochet's birthday.[/QUOTE] Whatever you do Castro, don't accept the invitation to ride in his helicopter! [sp]edited this in to explain it btw since it's probably an obscure reference. Pinochet was a chilean dictator put in by the US. And one way his regime executed people was by throwing them out of helicopters. There's a libertarian meme to say that what he did was right because people were invited onto his private property, the helicopter, and if they didn't get out when told, they'd be violating the NAP. I think historically they were just drugged and pushed out tho, not really told "please remove yourself from my private property."[/sp]
I ended up eating lunch at a Cuban place today, the people at the table behind me ordered a bottle of champagne to celebrate. The wait staff was also very happy.
You can't really say that Castro made cuba worse though, Cuba is a much better place than it was under batista's dictatorship.
[QUOTE=eirexe;51433162]You can't really say that Castro made cuba worse though, Cuba is a much better place than it was under batista's dictatorship.[/QUOTE] He certainly made it worse for all the Cuban-Americans who were forced to leave. Will the Cuban government ever return our land to us? My grandfather and great-grandfather never got to go back. All we have are photos of buildings that probably no longer exist
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;51431321]Does anyone have the time to give a crash course on how Castro fucked up Cuba and it's citizens?[/QUOTE] Yes, he didn't. end of crash course.
[QUOTE=eirexe;51433162]You can't really say that Castro made cuba worse though, Cuba is a much better place than it was under batista's dictatorship.[/QUOTE] better doesn't mean good.
[QUOTE=eirexe;51433162]You can't really say that Castro made cuba worse though, Cuba is a much better place than it was under batista's dictatorship.[/QUOTE] You can't really say that Putin made Russia worse though, Russia is a much better place than it was under Stalin's dictatorship. You see the problem? A country going from being really shit to just being shit doesn't change the fact that the country is still shit.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51431716]Saying that Che was a psychopath is misinformed. Let me put it this way: Nelson Mandela said Che was "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom". The people that Che opposed were just as bad, if not worse than what became of Castro's Cuba. Do yourself a favor and look into how the people of Cuba were treated under Fulgencio Batista's regime. It was a brutal, oppressive regime, possibly even more than Castro's Cuba. And yes, Castro [I]is[/I] vilified by history. Cuba was buddy-buddy with the Soviet Union, and that essentially made them our enemies. Che is lauded as a hero in Latin America because Fidel elevated him to an almost mythical status. He's not some great hero, he's certainly not a psychopath, he was just a revolutionary who fought for his own beliefs against imperialism and what he viewed as injustice. You want a sign that history isn't black and white? Don't look at Castro, look at Che.[/QUOTE] And that's why he ordered death squads and set up labor camps for people who he arbitrarily deemed "socially unfit"? Batista was a piece of shit as well though, I'll give you that. I'm not even sure where you're talking all that information from. Not to mention Nelson Mandela wasn't exactly a saint either, so his word isn't quite a redemption of any kind.
[QUOTE=rilez;51433264]He certainly made it worse for all the Cuban-Americans who were forced to leave. Will the Cuban government ever return our land to us? My grandfather and great-grandfather never got to go back. All we have are photos of buildings that probably no longer exist[/QUOTE] What was seized? If it's personal property then that is shitty. And those leaving cuba get a much better deal than those fleeing other countries, even with far worse living conditions at the very least, the US greatly expedites their process and integration into the US e.g. they can claim welfare immediately rather than the long waiting time that's typical.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51433434]What was seized? If it's personal property then that is shitty.[/QUOTE] Almost everything. My great-grandparents owned a canning business that employed a lot of people. From their letters, they were allowed to take a small amount of cash and some jewelry, that's it. Everything else was seized. I do not know how Castro's government treated other Cubans. My family was not Cuban, they were Italian immigrants who spent as much time in Cuba as they did Florida. Their financial prospects were basically ruined as the bulk of the business was located in Cuba. I doubt we were the only ones.
It's possible to be anti-imperialist and an environmentalist without being a shitty oppressive tyrant. With regards to Castro, quotes from Mikhail Bakunin are always relevant: [QUOTE]We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick."[/QUOTE] Fuck Marx-Leninism. Without Castro the world has one less mass-murderer/mass-murder apologist.
[QUOTE=redBadger;51429350]90 is well more than a full life.[/QUOTE] have a feeling he was joking
[QUOTE=SirJon;51433399]And that's why he ordered death squads and set up labor camps for people who he arbitrarily deemed "socially unfit"? Batista was a piece of shit as well though, I'll give you that. I'm not even sure where you're talking all that information from. Not to mention Nelson Mandela wasn't exactly a saint either, so his word isn't quite a redemption of any kind.[/QUOTE] Okay, now I [I]definitely[/I] know you're mixing up Che and Castro. I assume you're talking about these labor camps? [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Units_to_Aid_Production[/url] Those labor camps that were proposed by Castro [I]months[/I] after Che left Cuba for the Congo? And those "death squads" were executions for those involved with Batista's regime and were supposedly responsible for war crimes. That's typically how a revolution ends. And what information do you want me to source? That Mandela quote? Nelson Mandela famously admired Che as a revolutionary, taking in ideas from him and Mao Zedong on guerilla warfare when he was in a militant anti-apartheid group. And Nelson Mandela basically crushed any remaining legacy of apartheid during his time as president of South Africa and encouraged peaceful racial coexistence, not discriminating against white South Africans like they had to natives. How was he bad in any way, like you're implying him to be? He put South Africa on the right track as it's first president in it's democratic government.
[QUOTE=eirexe;51433162]You can't really say that Castro made cuba worse though, Cuba is a much better place than it was under batista's dictatorship.[/QUOTE] "Didn't make it worse" =/= "made it better" Cuba traded one dictator for another. It improved for some, got worse for others. But for most, it was the same shit, different leader. [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=SirJon;51431400]"vilified by history"? Are you joking? Che is cheered as "hero" in a substantial part of Latin America. He was a straight up psychopath. Hitler in comparison to him seems "merely misguided". I joked earlier about Fidel, you could argue for hours about him. Obviously, history isn't black and white, and Fidel is a good example of this. But Che, despite what pop culture t-shirts love to say, was not even close to a glorious idealistic revolutionary who only wanted people to be happy. Fidel is a grey area, as said before in this thread. But in order to excuse Che you'd have to be a literal sociopath, or just misinformed.[/QUOTE] Have you read Che's books? He's blinded by idealism and has absolutely no sense of practicality in putting his policies into effect. He constantly assumes that, if he can just hammer the square block of socialism into the round hold of society, everything will automatically be okay. He's not a psychopath, but he's incredibly naive and overly idealistic. A great leader for inspiration, but he was absolute trash at management. This is why Fidel pushed him to go to Africa, and then Bolivia because he was beginning to condemn the new Cuban government members - Fidel's government - as not being socialist enough because they weren't 'moving fast enough' or extreme enough to turn Cuba into a socialist paradise. Fidel, as shitty a tyrant as he was, had enough sense to see what the geopolitical situation his tiny little island was in the big picture of the globe.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;51431321]Does anyone have the time to give a crash course on how Castro fucked up Cuba and it's citizens?[/QUOTE] castro was on course to make a prosperous country until the us came and fucked it up thats a lot coming from hugely nationalist hyperlibertarian and severely anti-communist born in the cold war me, and you can browse my previous posts to confirm my ideology. he improved everything for cuba. he might not have been best case scenario but he was about as good as cuba could have had any hope of having as a leader. hopefully he'll have been about as good for cuba as trump will have been for america [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51433822] Have you read Che's books?[/QUOTE] honestly the biggest thing that blows my mind about che guevara is that he was able to write a book. that's a task that for some people takes a lifetime, but che managed to do that on top of being a communist revolutionary. dude must have had S++ time management skills
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