• Fidel Castro dead at age 90
    239 replies, posted
[QUOTE=butre;51433954] honestly the biggest thing that blows my mind about che guevara is that he was able to write a book. that's a task that for some people takes a lifetime, but che managed to do that on top of being a communist revolutionary. dude must have had S++ time management skills[/QUOTE] You realize that he was college educated, very well read and a doctor by trade, right?
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;51431321]Does anyone have the time to give a crash course on how Castro fucked up Cuba and it's citizens?[/QUOTE] You could always ask Hank and John Green on their YouTube channel, 'Crash Course' :v:
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51433822]He's not a psychopath, but he's incredibly naive and overly idealistic. A great leader for inspiration, but he was absolute trash at management. This is why Fidel pushed him to go to Africa, and then Bolivia because he was beginning to condemn the new Cuban government members - Fidel's government - as not being socialist enough because they weren't 'moving fast enough' or extreme enough to turn Cuba into a socialist paradise. Fidel, as shitty a tyrant as he was, had enough sense to see what the geopolitical situation his tiny little island was in the big picture of the globe.[/QUOTE] Che wasn't just criticizing the Cubans, he was chewing out the Soviet Union as well. The only reason Fidel kept his legacy alive was because he was so inspirational. Che and Fidel did a great job at riling up pissed of Cuban peasants, but not so much governing them. Of course it would have been a lot easier to improve the country without the embargo from America, but because the wrong people were in charge, and said embargo, the situation really only marginally improved for maybe half the population, and so many other people were basically given the boot and fucked over (like rilez's family, if he doesn't mind me using him as an example). The revolution was needed. It's unfortunate that it was so bloody, but that's how basically all political revolutions are. The problem was that Castro turned Cuba into a totalitarian regime, just [I]barely[/I] better than Batista for some people. Che was an idealist and an inspirational figure, and he wasn't completely unsuccessful with his spot in the Cuban government (he ran a successful literacy campaign), but him and Fidel should have been put into different positions (they would have been incredible military advisors). Fidel had a big personality and a big ego, and him not putting that aside and calling most of the shots is what really fucked Cuba. [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=butre;51433954]honestly the biggest thing that blows my mind about che guevara is that he was able to write a book. that's a task that for some people takes a lifetime, but che managed to do that on top of being a communist revolutionary. dude must have had S++ time management skills[/QUOTE] Che had a lot to say. Writing just comes naturally when your head is swimming with ideas and thoughts.
[QUOTE=butre;51433954][B]he improved everything for cuba.[/B] he might not have been best case scenario but he was about as good as cuba could have had any hope of having as a leader. hopefully he'll have been about as good for cuba as trump will have been for america[/QUOTE] If you think a dictator who destroyed the lives of immigrants in his country, suspended freedom of press, imprisoned/killed dissidents, and nearly led the world into nuclear war should be a model for Trump's presidency, you're just crazy. He was a piece of shit dictator, just like Batista.
He also kicked out the exploitative foreigners (e.g. the mafia casino owners, united fruit, etc.) who had effectively turned Cuba into a damn near fuedalistic society where almost everything was owned by Americans who happily exploited the hell out them, greatly increased literacy and education, IIRC has the best system by far of Latin America. And one of the best health care systems in the world. They've also helped millions of other latin Americans learn to read and write, and have sent hundreds of thousands of doctors abroad, doctors which the US denied for 9/11 and hurricane katrina. He's also gotten involved with other issues like stopping apartheid while scumfucks like reagan and thatcher still supported it. It's tu quoque, but the nukes in Cuba were because the US put nukes in Turkey. As I said earlier, there's still hardship and poverty in Cuba. But crime is very low, and things like starvation and death from curable illness are not problems they suffer from. People from what I know who live there have generally been pretty happy and supportive, and things have continuously trended towards being better and freer. If the people really did not like the regime, it would have not been so difficult for the CIA to get rid of Castro. Just like Batista isn't fitting at all.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434137]He also kicked out the exploitative foreigners (e.g. the mafia casino owners, united fruit, etc.) who had effectively turned Cuba into a damn near fuedalistic society where almost everything was owned by Americans who happily exploited the hell out them, greatly increased literacy and education, IIRC has the best system by far of Latin America. And one of the best health care systems in the world. They've also helped millions of other latin Americans learn to read and write, and have sent hundreds of thousands of doctors abroad, doctors which the US denied for 9/11 and hurricane katrina. He's also gotten involved with other issues like stopping apartheid while scumfucks like reagan and thatcher still supported it. As I said earlier, there's still hardship and poverty in Cuba. But crime is very low, and things like starvation and death from curable illness are not problems they suffer from. People from what I know who live there have generally been pretty happy and supportive, and things have continuously trended towards being better and freer. If the people really did not like the regime, it would have not been so difficult for the CIA to get rid of Castro. Just like Batista isn't fitting at all.[/QUOTE] Hasn't Raul Castro tried to be a bit more progressive as president? It at least seems that way with him being more open to US relations.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51434225]Hasn't Raul Castro tried to be a bit more progressive as president? It at least seems that way with him being more open to US relations.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Though, on the relations, I think Cuba has always been open to at least working with the US on certain things, but, US cold war doctrine hasn't really died off so yeah. As I said they even offered to send doctors for Katrina and 9/11, and they still trade with other capitalist countries.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51434225]Hasn't Raul Castro tried to be a bit more progressive as president? It at least seems that way with him being more open to US relations.[/QUOTE] I could be wrong but i think fidel kickstarted that post-retirement, or at least supported it.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434137]He also kicked out the exploitative foreigners (e.g. the mafia casino owners, united fruit, etc.) who had effectively turned Cuba into a damn near fuedalistic society where almost everything was owned by Americans who happily exploited the hell out them, greatly increased literacy and education, IIRC has the best system by far of Latin America. And one of the best health care systems in the world. They've also helped millions of other latin Americans learn to read and write, and have sent hundreds of thousands of doctors abroad, doctors which the US denied for 9/11 and hurricane katrina. He's also gotten involved with other issues like stopping apartheid while scumfucks like reagan and thatcher still supported it. It's tu quoque, but the nukes in Cuba were because the US put nukes in Turkey. As I said earlier, there's still hardship and poverty in Cuba. But crime is very low, and things like starvation and death from curable illness are not problems they suffer from. People from what I know who live there have generally been pretty happy and supportive, and things have continuously trended towards being better and freer. If the people really did not like the regime, it would have not been so difficult for the CIA to get rid of Castro. Just like Batista isn't fitting at all.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and all they had to do was seize and nationalize their private businesses, force their owners to flee to the United States without compensation, consolidate a cult of personality around himself and arrest/kill anyone who disagreed. Batista also did a bit of extrajudicial work when he was their dictator, so yeah pretty similar. For that price, they have healthcare and "education" (it's very easy to argue that their nationalized school system started as a way to indoctrinate people). Patients in Cuba do not have the right to privacy, or the right to sue for malpractice. Cuban people don't have the right to due process in general, or freedom of expression. Only in the past few years do they even have some freedom of movement to leave their country. Before that they had to leave on rafts. How is any of that worth it at all? How does Castro come out of this as anything but a tyrant? [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/26/cuba-fidel-castros-record-repression]If you don't believe me, HRW posted this today.[/url]
[QUOTE=rilez;51434254]Yeah, and all they had to do was seize and nationalize their private businesses, force their owners to flee to the United States without compensation, consolidate a cult of personality around himself and arrest/kill anyone who disagreed. Batista also did a bit of extrajudicial work when he was their dictator, so yeah pretty similar. For that price, they have healthcare and "education" (it's very easy to argue that their nationalized school system started as a way to indoctrinate people). Patients in Cuba do not have the right to privacy, or the right to sue for malpractice. Cuban people don't have the right to due process in general, or freedom of expression. Only in the past few years do they even have some freedom of movement to leave their country. Before that they had to leave on rafts. How is any of that worth it at all? How does Castro come out of this as anything but a tyrant? [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [URL="https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/26/cuba-fidel-castros-record-repression"]If you don't believe me, HRW posted this today.[/URL][/QUOTE] I'm not claiming him to be a saint, I find authoritarian flavours of socialism to be ineffective at truly bringing about collectivization and freedom. But what I'm saying is that he has done a lot more good and was far better than Batista. Sure, not having that privacy and ability to sue for malpractice sucks, but when we actually look at how the health system has affected things, it's working out very well. Also pretty much all school systems are indoctrination facilities. It's impossible to avoid.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434310]But what I'm saying is that he has done a lot more good and was far better than Batista.[/QUOTE] They literally did the same things to consolidate their government. Silence the press, imprison, torture and execute dissidents. There is no "far better". I don't care if he gave every Cuban citizen a million dollars when the revolution was over. He's still guilty of the same shit.
[QUOTE=rilez;51434327]They literally did the same things to consolidate their government. Silence the press, imprison, torture and execute dissidents. There is no "far better". I don't care if he gave every Cuban citizen a million dollars when the revolution was over. He's still guilty of the same shit.[/QUOTE] That repression isn't the only measure of a society
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434310]Also pretty much all school systems are indoctrination facilities. It's impossible to avoid.[/QUOTE] Do public schools in the US forbid any criticism of the government, or of capitalism or democracy, punishable by imprisonment?
[QUOTE=rilez;51434254]Yeah, and all they had to do was seize and nationalize their private businesses, force their owners to flee to the United States without compensation, consolidate a cult of personality around himself and arrest/kill anyone who disagreed. Batista also did a bit of extrajudicial work when he was their dictator, so yeah pretty similar. For that price, they have healthcare and "education" (it's very easy to argue that their nationalized school system started as a way to indoctrinate people). Patients in Cuba do not have the right to privacy, or the right to sue for malpractice. Cuban people don't have the right to due process in general, or freedom of expression. Only in the past few years do they even have some freedom of movement to leave their country. Before that they had to leave on rafts. How is any of that worth it at all? How does Castro come out of this as anything but a tyrant? [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/26/cuba-fidel-castros-record-repression]If you don't believe me, HRW posted this today.[/url][/QUOTE] It's fine to attack him on the grounds of human rights, but let's not pretend capitalism is a human right. Additionally, I don't think the idea that the education system was made to indoctrinate the populous would be any better than the same argument that could be made on that subject for any nation, in which ideology is undoubtedly pushed upon students. I guess it also is at least also good to note that Castro didn't consolidate a cult of personality around himself. While he had many problems, he wasn't simply a tyrant, he did do beneficial things for Cuba, and I wouldn't say he comes super close to being a tyrant at all. Authoritarian? Yes. Tyrannical, though? No.
[QUOTE=rilez;51434336]Do public schools in the US forbid any criticism of the government, or of capitalism or democracy, punishable by imprisonment?[/QUOTE] But that's not indoctrination. They're explicit tools that are used for it
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434334]That repression isn't the only measure of a society[/QUOTE] It's a pretty good measure of the fact that Castro was a tyrannical dictator.
[QUOTE=rilez;51434342]It's a pretty good measure of the fact that Castro was a tyrannical dictator.[/QUOTE] Well of course he was, but he wasn't "just like Batista." Making dictators out to all be 100% similar stops discussion about them
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434347]Well of course he was, but he wasn't "just like Batista." Making dictators out to all be 100% similar stops discussion about them[/QUOTE] Okay, so Batista was a Mafia crony, and Castro was a "man of the people". They're both guilty of all the same human rights abuses. I really honestly don't care about the differences between their "accomplishments" when they both had to kill people to get there.
[QUOTE=rilez;51434358]Okay, so Batista was a Mafia crony, and Castro was a "man of the people". They're both guilty of all the same human rights abuses. I really honestly don't care about the differences between their "accomplishments" when they both had to kill people to get there.[/QUOTE] So say, Lincoln is equivalent to Batista then. He used press suppression, voter suppression, and violence to maintain power. This is what I mean by recognizing nuance
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434366]So say, Lincoln is equivalent to Batista then. He used press suppression, voter suppression, and violence to maintain power.[/QUOTE] Uh, except Batista staged a coup and took control of his government violently, and then used his power to suppress dissent. Same with Castro. If the South won the war, Robert E. Lee suspended the constitution, and then started killing the opposition, maybe your comparison would make more sense.
[QUOTE=Saxon;51431334]Its a pretty grey topic mired by international politics and old feuds. Needless to say I don't understand what people in Miami are celebrating about, Castro basically won and hadn't been a relevant part of the Cuban government for a while now. People in the streets celebrating just seems pathetic to me[/QUOTE] Most people would feel relief or happiness when someone who has murdered, tortured and/or stolen from their friends and family die. It doesn't mean Cuba is free, it means that's a horrible chapter of their life ended.
Went to bootcamp with a guy whose father was one of Fidel's right hand men, before he went all red commie, and when his father tried to stop him, Fidel cut off one of his hands and let him go. Pretty brutal dude, but the man is, a lack of better words, a legend of sorts.
[QUOTE=Navarchus;51434501]Most people would feel relief or happiness when someone who has murdered, tortured and/or stolen from their friends and family die. It doesn't mean Cuba is free, it means that's a horrible chapter of their life ended.[/QUOTE] And I mean, the same happened when some of the shitty people from the other side like Thatcher died
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51434341]But that's not indoctrination. They're explicit tools that are used for it[/QUOTE] :conspiratard:
A lot of people around here are mourning his death, but from everything I've read and seen, he seems like he fucked up a lot of people's lives in Cuba. I guess I'll never understand
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51435242]:conspiratard:[/QUOTE]making little schoolchildren pledge loyalty to god and country every day is indoctrination. true, it's not enforced since 1943 as far as i know, but the fact that it's there in the first place is freaky.
[QUOTE=Joazzz;51435487]making little schoolchildren pledge loyalty to god and country every day is indoctrination. true, it's not enforced since 1943 as far as i know, but the fact that it's there in the first place is freaky.[/QUOTE] If it's not enforced, it's not making little schoolchildren do anything.
Clearly he was a complicated guy. We shouldn't be dumbing this argument down into 'he was a good man/a bad man' because we would be missing a lot. [editline]28th November 2016[/editline] Clearly he was a complicated guy. We shouldn't be dumbing this argument down into 'he was a good man/a bad man' because we would be missing a lot.
[QUOTE=Joazzz;51435487]making little schoolchildren pledge loyalty to god and country every day is indoctrination. true, it's not enforced since 1943 as far as i know, but the fact that it's there in the first place is freaky.[/QUOTE] The pledge to god part is unfortunately the result of cold war relations. When the USSR went atheist the US went religious because in that time one side had to go complete contrarian to the other. Nobody really cares about it except for the edgy. The only people who who don't like nor hate it but just annoyed by it are the ones like me who had to repeat it everyday and listen to the national anthem afterwards because our school district established a policy for it ever since 9/11. --- Anyway glad that Castro is gone, he was a piece of shit who had a 'ends justify the means' mentality and embodied the 'road to hell is paved with good intentions'. I find it hard to justify national education and healthcare at the expense of basic political rights, human rights violations, torture, crushing all political disagreement, etc. His early administration really drove home the 'problem with socialism is you run out of other peoples money' and caused a economic brain drain when all the middle class fled because of alienation. His feats of building roads, sanitation projects, healthcare, education, etc all could've been done without going full Marxist([I]example: the United States and every other liberal democracy ever[/I]). He tried to strip away individuality through socialism which is impossible as all humans are inherently individual with their own unique thoughts and experiences and is the problem with the idea of collectivism which is even more ironic when he was anti-globalization which goes against unifying different nations with trade. In the end, I see him as the very thing he despised. A man who concentrated all power into himself and enjoyed a life of luxury as the rest of his people all suffered in equal poverty and fled his communism.
The world is a better place without this genocidal marxist scum.
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