• Fidel Castro dead at age 90
    239 replies, posted
Wait. People defend Fidel Castro?
[QUOTE=Swilly;51435835]Wait. People defend Fidel Castro?[/QUOTE] people will perform some incredible mental gymnastics to force a piece of shit like castro to fit into their narratives
[QUOTE=Omesh;51435618]The world is a better place without this genocidal marxist scum.[/QUOTE] There's a difference between political executions and genocide. [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;51435835]Wait. People defend Fidel Castro?[/QUOTE] Castro was a tyrannical dictator but history isn't exactly black and white most of the time. We can't just dismiss him as an entirely evil man, nor should people embrace him and act like he was a messiah.
[QUOTE=rilez;51434076]If you think a dictator who destroyed the lives of immigrants in his country, suspended freedom of press, imprisoned/killed dissidents, and nearly led the world into nuclear war should be a model for Trump's presidency, you're just crazy. He was a piece of shit dictator, just like Batista.[/QUOTE] yeah he was garbage but batista was objectively and measurably worse garbage yeah cuba sucks, but it sucks a lot less than cuba under batista did
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51433804]Okay, now I [I]definitely[/I] know you're mixing up Che and Castro. I assume you're talking about these labor camps? [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Units_to_Aid_Production[/url] Those labor camps that were proposed by Castro [I]months[/I] after Che left Cuba for the Congo? And those "death squads" were executions for those involved with Batista's regime and were supposedly responsible for war crimes. That's typically how a revolution ends. [/QUOTE] I'm not mixing them up. As far as I know, the camps are often said to be proposed by Che. A proposition and putting a plan into action don't have to happen simultaneously, so it checks out. The revolution didn't end without it's share of innocent casualties either, and what the Revolution considered criminals often could have been very much innocent people, it's quite easy to accuse someone of any convenient crime during a turbulent time to get rid of them. A revolution doesn't excuse murder. [QUOTE=Emperror Scorpious II]He's blinded by idealism and has absolutely no sense of practicality in putting his policies into effect. He constantly assumes that, if he can just hammer the square block of socialism into the round hold of society, everything will automatically be okay. He's not a psychopath, but he's incredibly naive and overly idealistic.[/QUOTE] That doesn't exclude him from being a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't mean someone will etch runes into a wall and shit like that. He however most likely had a limited, or very disfigured sense of empathy and compassion. Which his tendency to rely on murder demonstrates, among other things. The problem with this topic is that domestic Cuban historical relations from the period are very sparse and grainy at best, and the censoring and destruction of inconvenient truths surely didn't help. Based on what we do know and relations from the Cubans themselves however, we can take educated guesses. It's also important to remember certain patterns we have historically observed elsewhere, how tales of glorious revolutions are almost exclusively a thin veil for horrendous crimes and the worst that humanity has to offer, and how such glorifications and lies are common practice for similar states of events. [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;51435835]Wait. People defend Fidel Castro?[/QUOTE] One thing the Communist Bloc was exceptionally good at during the Cold War was propaganda.
[QUOTE=Swilly;51435835]Wait. People defend Fidel Castro?[/QUOTE] What I think is interesting is that everyone who has been impacted by Castro, either directly or second hand through friends or family, seems to absolutely hate him while most of the support for his reign comes from unattached leftists in vastly more free states like the US.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51433311]Yes, he didn't. end of crash course.[/QUOTE] I know that's not true but good thing people who are actually informed on the issue posted below you.
[QUOTE=butre;51436272]yeah he was garbage but batista was objectively and measurably worse garbage yeah cuba sucks, but it sucks a lot less than cuba under batista did[/QUOTE] Bottom line, Cuba is still in a shit state, because of a shit dictator, who shouldn't be used by anyone anywhere in the world as any measure of success. Nor should you have the President aspire to be anything like him. [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Raidyr;51436523]What I think is interesting is that everyone who has been impacted by Castro, either directly or second hand through friends or family, seems to absolutely hate him while most of the support for his reign comes from unattached leftists in vastly more free states like the US.[/QUOTE] My grandfather was a very kind man. Born in NY, but spent a good chunk of his life in Cuba, and lived under Batista, and Castro for a short time. He would have been quite happy to see Castro die. "Hurricanes are bad for Cuba, but Castro is much worse"
[QUOTE=SirJon;51436320]One thing the Communist Bloc was exceptionally good at during the Cold War was propaganda.[/QUOTE]the US and their allies do it even better.
[QUOTE=Joazzz;51436759]the US and their allies do it even better.[/QUOTE] That's arguable
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51436107]There's a difference between political executions and genocide.[/QUOTE] He [URL="http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621030%20Letter%20to%20Castro.pdf"]wanted [/URL]to start nuclear war by having USSR first strike US. I don't mean strictly by race, but these people are completely insane and everything to kill perceived oppressors and furthering ~equality.
[QUOTE=SirJon;51436320]I'm not mixing them up. [B]As far as I know,[/B] the camps are often said to be proposed by Che. A proposition and putting a plan into action don't have to happen simultaneously, so it checks out.[/QUOTE] Yes, as far as you know. Unfortunately for you, what you "know" is false and contradicts actual facts. [QUOTE]The revolution didn't end without it's share of innocent casualties either, and what the Revolution considered criminals often could have been very much innocent people, it's quite easy to accuse someone of any convenient crime during a turbulent time to get rid of them. A revolution doesn't excuse murder.[/QUOTE] Jon Lee Anderson, an investigative reporter and war reporter, actually wrote a full biography on Che Guevara, doing extensive research, and found no credible sources to Che being responsible for executing innocent people. And that research was thorough. INCREDIBLY thorough. He was the person responsible for finding Che's remains in Bolivia. [editline]27th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Omesh;51437038]He [URL="http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621030%20Letter%20to%20Castro.pdf"]wanted [/URL]to start nuclear war by having USSR first strike US. I don't mean strictly by race, but these people are completely insane and everything to kill perceived oppressors and furthering ~equality.[/QUOTE] That still doesn't follow the legal definition of genocide. That's a suggested nuclear strike (suggested due to the rising tensions of the Missile Crisis), but it's still not a genocide.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51437190]Yes, as far as you know. Unfortunately for you, what you "know" is false and contradicts actual facts.[/QUOTE] That's a well constructed and totally not petty at all argument! Damn, poor unfortunate me. [QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51437190] Jon Lee Anderson, an investigative reporter and war reporter, actually wrote a full biography on Che Guevara, doing extensive research, and found no credible sources to Che being responsible for executing innocent people. And that research was thorough. INCREDIBLY thorough. He was the person responsible for finding Che's remains in Bolivia. [/QUOTE] Yes, and Michael J. Totten stated most of what I'm saying. "No credible sources" is a slippery slope at best, as I've said earlier. That was the point of censoring and propaganda. There aren't a whole lot of hard credible sources for either side of the argument, to be perfectly honest. I'm convinced by what I've red and hear, however.
[QUOTE=rilez;51436729] My grandfather was a very kind man. Born in NY, but spent a good chunk of his life in Cuba, and lived under Batista, and Castro for a short time. He would have been quite happy to see Castro die. "Hurricanes are bad for Cuba, but Castro is much worse"[/QUOTE] I live in the United States so obviously I'm only going to hear from people who left Cuba [I]for some reason [/I]but I wonder if there are any actual Cubans/Cuban descendents who are sad at Castro's passing because I haven't seen it. [QUOTE=Joazzz;51436759]the US and their allies do it even better.[/QUOTE] Generally the USSR had the propaganda edge during the Cold War and their use of disinformation is a [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/europe/russia-sweden-disinformation.html"]practice that continues to this day.[/URL]
[QUOTE=SirJon;51437231]That's a well constructed and totally not petty at all argument! Damn, poor unfortunate me.[/QUOTE] Well, if you actually read any of my posts, you would see that they're far from petty. And you're not exactly well constructed yourself, claiming that Che Guevara was literally worse than Hitler. [QUOTE]Yes, and Michael J. Totten stated most of what I'm saying. "No credible sources" is a slippery slope at best, as I've said earlier. That was the point of censoring and propaganda. There aren't a whole lot of hard credible sources for either side of the argument, to be perfectly honest. I'm convinced by what I've read and hear, however.[/QUOTE] Jon Lee Anderson actually interviewed many people and got first hand accounts for his biography. He had also covered South and Central America since 1979. He knows what he's talking about.
the only reason i like castro is because he had these [I]giant[/I] ice cream parlors created during his rule
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51437396]I live in the United States so obviously I'm only going to hear from people who left Cuba [I]for some reason [/I]but I wonder if there are any actual Cubans/Cuban descendents who are sad at Castro's passing because I haven't seen it. Generally the USSR had the propaganda edge during the Cold War and their use of disinformation is a [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/europe/russia-sweden-disinformation.html"]practice that continues to this day.[/URL][/QUOTE] It would have to be several generations, since the first ones would be raised by people who probably disliked Castro if they've left Cuba. It's not really comparable, but I've met more yugonostalgic people that are my generation (post 10 day war, so it's pretty bizzare) than people who have actually experienced it. So it's probably possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see a huffington post article titled "I have Cuban Heritage and I think Castro's death is a blow to Democracy".
[QUOTE=wewt!;51438920]It would have to be several generations, since the first ones would be raised by people who probably disliked Castro if they've left Cuba. It's not really comparable, but I've met more yugonostalgic people that are my generation (post 10 day war, so it's pretty bizzare) than people who have actually experienced it. So it's probably possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see a huffington post article titled "I have Cuban Heritage and I think Castro's death is a blow to Democracy".[/QUOTE] "I'm 1/32rd Cuban and I can assuredly say that he did literally nothing wrong."
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