'Evil and Orwellian' – America's right turns its fire on Britain's NHS - Polidicks

I don't think the chances of writing a bill we all agree will benefit everyone without any chance of failure are very significant. At least if we get something started, we can see what's not working and change it.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16675854]I don't think the chances of writing a bill we all agree will benefit everyone without any chance of failure are very significant. At least if we get something started, we can see what's not working and change it.[/QUOTE] The last time we failed so severely on a bill like that Al Capone rose to power. You can make a bill virtually foolproof, it just takes time and work, two things the Republicans and Democrats fucking hate with a passion. That and the Obama administration dismisses suggestions for reform as Republican propaganda.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16675895]The last time we failed so severely on a bill like that Al Capone rose to power. You can make a bill virtually foolproof, it just takes time and work, two things the Republicans and Democrats fucking hate with a passion. That and the Obama administration dismisses suggestions for reform as Republican propaganda.[/QUOTE] Although the first thing I thought of was a comical scenario of underground healthcare speakeasies, I won't go into that... Anyway, my main thought is that if we decide not to pass this bill, the idea of healthcare reform will be viewed as unpopular and forgotten very quickly, despite creating a more solid bill and returning to the fight being the best option.

If it can be forgotten so quickly it clearly isn't a big problem. [editline]05:17PM[/editline] If it is really that important you shouldn't have to worry about people forgetting.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16675497]What if a smoker is more severely dependent than a non smoker?[/QUOTE] Then you heal him first.

The NHS is the best creation of the 1900's. People complain because they take it for granted. If people had to pay out of their arses like Private, they'd play hell up and soon find the NHS was a good service. Any Americans who would reject the free healthcare system are idiots. Simple as that.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16676166]Then you heal him first.[/QUOTE] Even though he's going to take the transplanted lung, smoke more and be back in five years. Meanwhile the kid dies. [editline]05:21PM[/editline] That's just the opposite extreme of what's wrong with healthcare today.

Fuck you America, were in a vice. If we raise poll tax people will be pissed off, if you lower funding people will be pissed off. [editline]10:24PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Aurain;16676177]The NHS is the best creation of the 1900's. People complain because they take it for granted. If people had to pay out of their arses like Private, they'd play hell up and soon find the NHS was a good service. Any Americans who would reject the free healthcare system are idiots. Simple as that.[/QUOTE] They want to keep their "Great American Capitalism".

[QUOTE=MachiniOs;16676301]Fuck you America, were in a vice. If we raise poll tax people will be pissed off, if you lower funding people will be pissed off. [editline]10:24PM[/editline] They want to keep their "Great American Capitalism".[/QUOTE] Fuck you America I don't know how the system works or have the faintest idea of how to execute it fairly fuck you for wanting a better option fuck you America fuck you [editline]05:25PM[/editline] Why are you so fucking picky America why won't you settle for this mediocre strategy?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16676142]If it can be forgotten so quickly it clearly isn't a big problem. [editline]05:17PM[/editline] If it is really that important you shouldn't have to worry about people forgetting.[/QUOTE] Well, it seems Americans are fairly fickle people. If it's taken this long to reach this point from when healthcare reform was first being discussed on the national scene, I imagine it will be a long time until another bill with this chance of success gets this far again. I don't think the current proposal is so terrible that it's worth giving up this momentum on the issue.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16676378]Fuck you America I don't know how the system works or have the faintest idea of how to execute it fairly fuck you for wanting a better option fuck you America fuck you [/QUOTE] The system is run fairly well, it's just fucking budget being blown for the shittiest reasons.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16676402]Well, it seems Americans are fairly fickle people. If it's taken this long to reach this point from when healthcare reform was first being discussed on the national scene, I imagine it will be a long time until another bill with this chance of success gets this far again. I don't think the current proposal is so terrible that it's worth giving up this momentum on the issue.[/QUOTE] Yes, we want our reform to make sense and actually accomplish its goals without contradicting itself, becoming a clusterfuck of bureaucracy and going against the wishes of the people. We are fickle and proud of it. We don't settle for less than perfection because we don't want to. [editline]05:29PM[/editline] [QUOTE=MachiniOs;16676461]The system is run fairly well, it's just fucking budget being blown for the shittiest reasons.[/QUOTE] The system isn't implemented, how the fuck can it be running fairly well. Do you even understand the basic proposal? FYI the Facepunch thread is wrong.

That guy lives in the UK.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16676515]That guy lives in the UK.[/QUOTE] Then he doesn't get a say. [editline]05:31PM[/editline] We don't tell you guys NOT to have an NHS, stop telling us TO have an NHS.

Oh, I was just clarifying what he was talking about, since you seemed to think he was talking about us already having a NHS and it being run well, when in fact he was talking about his own system for some reason.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16676227]Even though he's going to take the transplanted lung, smoke more and be back in five years. Meanwhile the kid dies. [editline]05:21PM[/editline] That's just the opposite extreme of what's wrong with healthcare today.[/QUOTE] That's superficial. There is a lot more elements that go with it.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16676567]Oh, I was just clarifying what he was talking about, since you seemed to think he was talking about us already having a NHS and it being run well, when in fact he was talking about his own system for some reason.[/QUOTE] Then he clearly doesn't realize that our NHS is very dissimilar to theirs, and their NHS on its own would not accommodate are much larger population and our much more complex federal, state and local government setups. [editline]05:34PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Trotsky;16676589]That's superficial. There is a lot more elements that go with it.[/QUOTE] A smoker getting a lung and a non-smoking kid not getting a lung is not superficial. You said first come first serve. What other elements are there?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16676609]Then he clearly doesn't realize that our NHS is very dissimilar to theirs, and their NHS on its own would not accommodate are much larger population and our much more complex federal, state and local government setups. [editline]05:34PM[/editline] A smoker getting a lung and a non-smoking kid not getting a lung is not superficial. You said first come first serve. What other elements are there?[/QUOTE] I never said first come first server, I said whoever needs immediate treatment first. You're saying how it'll be bottle necked into one position, that the smoker will kill his new lungs. Here's the thing, you work on making sure that guy tries to quit or curb his smoking. This is how the NHS works in England. The system has its flaws, but comparing that to the failure of a system America has, it's preferable.

Gah, this is different than arguing with the guys who watch Glenn Beck all day then voice their outrage on Facepunch. I think the most I could accomplish right now is to reach a common agreement with you, and while I honestly don't have anything better to do right now, I don't want to continue to the point of becoming incoherent and regret it later. Have a nice day.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16676776]I never said first come first server, I said whoever needs immediate treatment first. [/QUOTE] But what about for transplants etc? [editline]10:45PM[/editline] What you just said is basically first come first served

[QUOTE=James*;16676833]But what about for transplants etc? [editline]10:45PM[/editline] What you just said is basically first come first served[/QUOTE] I don't see how you get that. A guy comes in dying and in desperate need of transplant, and then another person comes in, but in less of a serious condition, you help the severe case, then the less severe case. I don't see how that's first come first serve.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16676776]I never said first come first server, I said whoever needs immediate treatment first. You're saying how it'll be bottle necked into one position, that the smoker will kill his new lungs. Here's the thing, you work on making sure that guy tries to quit or curb his smoking. This is how the NHS works in England. The system has its flaws, but comparing that to the failure of a system America has, it's preferable.[/QUOTE] But what if he doesn't quit? What if he refuses? You let him die on a government budget? This is the fundamental flaw in nationalized healthcare in any country that isn't fit for mandated health. It turns into social engineering. [editline]06:02PM[/editline] We don't like cigarettes so on a government budget we are going to try to get you to stop using them. Fuck that, fuck them. That's a personal choice the government has absolutely no place in dictating.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677297]But what if he doesn't quit? What if he refuses? You let him die on a government budget? This is the fundamental flaw in nationalized healthcare in any country that isn't fit for mandated health. It turns into social engineering. [editline]06:02PM[/editline] We don't like cigarettes so on a government budget we are going to try to get you to stop using them. Fuck that, fuck them. That's a personal choice the government has absolutely no place in dictating.[/QUOTE] Because people who continue smoking don't get treatment...? They get treated anyway. The government persuades them not to, but in the end it's their choice. And in my opinion protecting a citizens welfare is the main priority of a government, so if they see smoking as dangerous they should say so. If people don't like it they can vote out that government next term...

[QUOTE=Athelus;16677442]Because people who continue smoking don't get treatment...? They get treated anyway. The government persuades them not to, but in the end it's their choice.[/QUOTE] The government has absolutely no place whatsoever in telling its citizens how to live. [editline]06:06PM[/editline] And so what if their anti-smoking persuasion is ineffective and all of those lungs go to waste? Then what?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677498]The government has absolutely no place whatsoever in telling its citizens how to live. [editline]06:06PM[/editline] And so what if their anti-smoking persuasion is ineffective and all of those lungs go to waste? Then what?[/QUOTE] As I just said, they give the treatment anyway. That's where the duty tax goes... (Keep in mind this isn't theoretical... this is a real system that has worked for decades) The government does have a right to ensure the health of its citizens. Keep in mind they are putting up posters saying 'smoking can cause damage' not sending police in to confiscate tobacco... Even countries without national health care do that.

[QUOTE=Athelus;16677563]They give the treatment anyway. That's where the duty tax goes...[/QUOTE] So the people who do not smoke die because they weren't as severe? We don't have unlimited organs. Where one person gets an organ nine don't.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16677278]I don't see how you get that. A guy comes in dying and in desperate need of transplant, and then another person comes in, but in less of a serious condition, you help the severe case, then the less severe case. I don't see how that's first come first serve.[/QUOTE] Okay what about if there's two people in a similar condition, and only one organ. What criteria do you use then?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677659]So the people who do not smoke die because they weren't as severe? We don't have unlimited organs. Where one person gets an organ nine don't.[/QUOTE] And this wouldn't happen with private healthcare? Which might I add also exists in parallel with the NHS?

[QUOTE=James*;16677661]Okay what about if there's two people in a similar condition, and only one organ. What criteria do you use then?[/QUOTE] Flip a coin. Which is precisely what private health can do, where public health cannot.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677730]Flip a coin. Which is precisely what private health can do, where public health cannot.[/QUOTE] So you're in favour of denial of healthcare on the grounds of income?