'Evil and Orwellian' – America's right turns its fire on Britain's NHS - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677730]Flip a coin. Which is precisely what private health can do, where public health cannot.[/QUOTE] I thought public health can do that, because it's not discriminatory. It's just a silly thing to do. [editline]11:14PM[/editline] I personally believe that discrimination in an NHS is a necessary evil

[QUOTE=Athelus;16677712]And this wouldn't happen with private healthcare? Which might I add also exists in parallel with the NHS?[/QUOTE] No, it doesn't, because private health is based on getting what you paid for. With public health, you are ALWAYS paying the bill whether you need it or not. Everyone pays the same amount and therefore everyone is entitled to equal preference. With private healthcare if you can and will be denied treatment on a discretionary basis if you are seen unfit to take care of yourself and the transplanted organ. You do not pay for the treatment, you are sent home, meanwhile someone more deserving of that organ gets treatment. Given you have not paid anything for a treatment you can be denied treatment. If you want discretionary transplants and treatment to truly be fair you owe people you deny service to a refund of the exact cost of the treatment, so at very least they'll die with the money they had paid for that treatment already, or better yet they can go to the private sector for treatment. [editline]06:15PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Athelus;16677764]So you're in favour of denial of healthcare on the grounds of income?[/QUOTE] No. You idiots keep saying that. I'm in favor of denial of healthcare based on responsibility. This is only ethical, possible and legal in the private sector. [editline]06:16PM[/editline] [QUOTE=James*;16677780]I thought public health can do that, because it's not discriminatory. It's just a silly thing to do. [editline]11:14PM[/editline] I personally believe that discrimination in an NHS is a necessary evil[/QUOTE] I personally believe there should be no evils in the government at all. It clearly isn't necessary given we're living without it right now. We need insurance and private reform, not public health revolution. The insurance industry is responsible for most of these problems. We should address THEM specifically, not the entire industry.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677828]Everyone pays the same amount and therefore everyone is entitled to equal preference.[/QUOTE] Well actually people pay different amounts, but are given equal preference anyway. If they weren't it would basically be private healthcare.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16675395]It being such a vast and complex undertaking doesn't do anything but solidify the point. Nothing should be done until we have a legitimately good plan of action. [b]An NHS is not a legitimately good plan of action, insurance and healthcare reform are. We need evolution, not revolution[/b].[/QUOTE] How can you be so fucking right all the time and not get rated dumb and shunned away? My jaw dropped when I read that.

[QUOTE=James*;16677899]Well actually people pay different amounts, but are given equal preference anyway. If they weren't it would basically be private healthcare.[/QUOTE] I'm talking the ideal American NHS here, not British NHS or even the reality of how fucking incompetent our government would be in healthcare. The US government can't even manage medicare. [editline]06:19PM[/editline] [QUOTE=DrMortician;16677910]How can you be so fucking right all the time and not get rated dumb and shunned away? My jaw dropped when I read that.[/QUOTE] It's a disease I have to live with every day.

Personally i'm happy to pay a little so that the less fortunate don't get refused treatment. Ok, maybe i'm 'one of those idiots' but how does only allowing people with enough money for private inurance allow for greater responsibility? Didn't you just rant about the right to smoke too? In any case, I know few people who never need medical care. And very few private healthcare plans that have as reasonable rates as the tax contributions to the NHS. To further that point, I know few people in the US who do not have medical insurance of some form. Sureley that should mean they shouldn't be turned away by your logic? Or should they be refunded for not claiming?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677955] It's a disease I have to live with every day.[/QUOTE] That's liberal politics for you :v:

[QUOTE=Conscript;16678311]That's liberal politics for you :v:[/QUOTE] Really you should say left wing... it annoys me that people think of moderate socialism as liberalism... semantics I know, but still...

[QUOTE=Athelus;16678138]Personally i'm happy to pay a little so that the less fortunate don't get refused treatment.[/QUOTE] They will. You think smokers and drinkers are rich motherfuckers? No. Smokers and drinkers are mostly members of the lower class, and under the system we are proposing they are refused many services. [editline]06:41PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Conscript;16678311]That's liberal politics for you :v:[/QUOTE] Wait did he mean right as in correct or right as in conservative? Because I'm not conservative by any meaning of the word. I just assumed he meant right as in correct because I am correct in everything I ever say.

[QUOTE=DrMortician;16677910]How can you be so fucking right all the time and not get rated dumb and shunned away? My jaw dropped when I read that.[/QUOTE] Having a quite reasonable opinion on an internet forum populated primarily by early teens may be a rare sight, but it doesn't make him infallibly correct on the subject. This thread has only covered an extremely small portion of the issue. Also, the reason he isn't given dumb ratings and shunned is because the way he talks to people who disagree with him isn't inflammatory like most other people here.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16678536]Also, the reason he isn't given dumb ratings and shunned is because the way he talks to people who disagree with him isn't inflammatory like most other people here.[/QUOTE] Yes it is. That dude Zeke11something or whatever went around saying we should let the entirety of Africa die so we can invade and use it to grow corn for ethanol-based fuel. Then he went on to say Africa is making no progress and its inhabitants are stupid idiots incapable of running their own government and they believe in raping virgins. I called him a fucking racist idiot. I just don't get all inflammatory when people make sense and at very least make a concerted effort at educating themselves on an issue, even if they still don't really understand what they're talking about. The realistic fact is that I am one of the few people here with a formal education in the fields I discuss. If I recall Avon is a physicist or something and Thisispain is a med student, other than that I don't know of anyone else who knows anything about the shit they talk about.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16677297]But what if he doesn't quit? What if he refuses? You let him die on a government budget? This is the fundamental flaw in nationalized healthcare in any country that isn't fit for mandated health. It turns into social engineering. [editline]06:02PM[/editline] We don't like cigarettes so on a government budget we are going to try to get you to stop using them. Fuck that, fuck them. That's a personal choice the government has absolutely no place in dictating.[/QUOTE] I honestly don't see how that's a "Flaw".

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16678595]I honestly don't see how that's a "Flaw".[/QUOTE] If you don't see how social engineering is a flaw you clearly don't have the foresight OR the hindsight to make an intelligent point on the issue. Social engineering is why drugs are illegal and people hate gays. Religion is the forefather to social engineering and taxation and nationalized-anything is its modern successor. Unless you don't know what the term means then I'll be happy to explain. It's when someone takes a subjective opinion, presents it as a fact and uses established government systems to nail that falsified fact into the heads of the citizenry. i.e. instead of "Ciggarettes are bad for you" through heavy taxation and nationalized bullshit it turns into "You should not use cigarettes." It's completely defiant of the philosophy of personal choice and responsibility. True modern freedom is giving everyone the ability to do to themselves as they please so long as it does not violate another person's right to do the same. Social engineering is a method of usurping that philosophy.

-snip, totally lost my train of thought. fuck-

[QUOTE=Lankist;16678465]They will. You think smokers and drinkers are rich motherfuckers? No. Smokers and drinkers are mostly members of the lower class, and under the system we are proposing they are refused many services.[/QUOTE] But in the NHS they don't get turned away, there is normally enough funding... Maybe it will be different in the US, but I don't pay taxes there. [editline]11:57PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Conscript;16678798]There is no such thing as 'moderate socialism', only in the minds of strictly minarchists does it exist. It's a strawman, quite simply. What better word to use against your opponents that want 'big government' then calling them socialists, after exiting a long lasting cold war against a socialist-big-government enemy? What we think today of 'moderate socialism' in the US is a product of dirty politics. The fact that many have become disillusioned with the free marketers is the reason why we have taken a 180 degree turn and have thought twice about the ideology that the people who led us were so quick to condemn.[/QUOTE] My point was that Free Market is a liberal invention. You confused Liberalism with Left wing politics. And I don't live in the US, and we do call people socialist without it being an insult.

[QUOTE=Athelus;16678840]But in the NHS they don't get turned away, there is normally enough funding... Maybe it will be different in the US, but I don't pay taxes there.[/QUOTE] It is different in the proposed US plan. Drug users go to the back of the line or do not get treatment at all, it is considered willful affliction. I'm talking about the US NHS, not the UK. I don't live in the UK, I don't care about the UK, you guys can do whatever the hell you want. It's your country, it's your money and your people, I do not have a say in your affairs. I am a US Citizen only, I only have a say in US politics and I only understand US politics. UK politics are completely alien to me. I can safely say you know more about them than I do. [editline]07:00PM[/editline] I can say I do not understand the vehemence displayed by people who live in the UK about OUR politics. They don't live here, why the fuck do they care about our shit? We're the ones who benefit or suffer from it.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16678906]It is different in the proposed US plan. Drug users go to the back of the line or do not get treatment at all, it is considered willful affliction. I'm talking about the US NHS, not the UK. I don't live in the UK, I don't care about the UK, you guys can do whatever the hell you want. It's your country, it's your money and your people, I do not have a say in your affairs. I am a US Citizen only, I only have a say in US politics and I only understand US politics. UK politics are completely alien to me. I can safely say you know more about them than I do. [editline]07:00PM[/editline] I can say I do not understand the vehemence displayed by people who live in the UK about OUR politics. They don't live here, why the fuck do they care about our shit? We're the ones who benefit or suffer from it.[/QUOTE] Well, this is a thread on the UK NHS, so excuse me for feeling you may disagree with it. I did at no point say anything about your politics, I think i made that fairly clear. I hardly see how I am being 'vehement' about US politics by explaining the structure of the British NHS? This thread is about the phenomenon of the reverse taking place. Anyway, and I don't mean this as a challenge, what overt drug users have a decent health plan as it is?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16678638]If you don't see how social engineering is a flaw you clearly don't have the foresight OR the hindsight to make an intelligent point on the issue. Social engineering is why drugs are illegal and people hate gays. Religion is the forefather to social engineering and taxation and nationalized-anything is its modern successor. Unless you don't know what the term means then I'll be happy to explain. It's when someone takes a subjective opinion, presents it as a fact and uses established government systems to nail that falsified fact into the heads of the citizenry. It's completely defiant of the philosophy of personal choice and responsibility. True modern freedom is giving everyone the ability to do to themselves as they please so long as it does not violate another person's right to do the same. Social engineering is a method of usurping that philosophy.[/QUOTE] Wow, that's nice and one sided of you. I'm ingorant on this because I don't agree with you? The reason I don't see that as a "Flaw" is because if the man goes ahead and smokes again, so be it, the government should help him, he's a human being. now, I know you have a hatred for all things human, Lankist, but yous till have to acknowledge the fact all humans should have the same chance at life. The one thing I've noticed in your spiteful, anti-human, arrogant, lolbertarian rants is how you favor money above EVERYTHING else. So fucking what if your taxes go into helping a guy who brought his problems on himself. With all the wasted money America has today, you're going to protest health? And by the way, genius, your money is already being wasted. America has the highest expenditure in the world. Why aren't you whining about the failures of Well guess what, Lankist, if the supposed "social engineering" you say exists in Europe fails as much as you say, then why hasn't Europe fallen into chaos? Are you implying cigarettes are not bad for you? A doctor trying to prevent a person from harming them self further is not social engineering. Sorry if that whole "Helping people in need" thing bothers you so much. If you have such a hatred for any ounce of compasion, then why don't you lock yourself up in a hole for the rest of your life.

[QUOTE=Athelus;16678840] My point was that Free Market is a liberal invention. You confused Liberalism with Left wing politics. And I don't live in the US, and we do call people socialist without it being an insult.[/QUOTE] I really fucked up on that post but yeah. I'm pretty sure liberalism is on the left, so why are we now making a distinction between liberalism and left wing politics? Also the free market is not an invention in the sense you're using it in, it belongs to no ideology. There are ideologies that support it, and have a wealth of reason and arguments supporting it, but it still belongs to no one. And yeah, socialism has a bit of a nice tone to it in the UK because of the Labour party and its movement. The US, at least as far as everyday people know, has never been graced with one. Currently, information outlets are a bit more focused on the cold war and how we're the beacon of freedom, democracy, etc. and how it relates to today's government and politics.

[QUOTE=Conscript;16679020]I really fucked up on that post but yeah. I'm pretty sure liberalism is on the left, so why are we now making a distinction between liberalism and left wing politics? Also the free market is not an invention in the sense you're using it in, it belongs to no ideology. There are ideologies that support it, and have a wealth of reason and arguments supporting it, but it still belongs to no one.[/QUOTE] Actually, no it isn't. Political conservatism is also aligned with liberalism, but the term is often misused. We generally consider the Bush Doctrine, for example, as a liberal viewpoint.

[QUOTE=Athelus;16678951]Well, this is a thread on the UK NHS, so excuse me for feeling you may disagree with it. And I don't see how we, with a lower budget would succeed where you would not... Anyway, and I don't mean this as a challenge, what overt drug users have a decent health plan as it is?[/QUOTE] I don't disagree with the UK NHS. If it works for you guys it works, but our NHS is entirely different as is our political system. It simply would not work over here. Plus the UK government is about fifty times more competent than ours. The reason you guys can succeed, from a foreign perspective, is because you are much smaller and your government is much more unified. Our government runs on three basis tiers: Local, state and federal governments. Anything not in the Constitution falls to local and state government, where Federal government's job is to administrate the union itself and not its members. This system works for us because of how big we are. Each of our states has its own culture, geography, and even its own stereotypes. Fuck, our Texas is like your Ireland, always shooting its mouth off about the Union. Really the US is more like the EU than it is the UK. Each state runs more or less as a mildly independent nation-state with the union itself being a military and financial alliance between all fifty. Given this fact, and the Constitution being such a radically different foundation from the UK's base literature, our politics run on a completely different level. We are a more self-reliant society, and we are more willing to take the risk of unhealth and death for the sake of the reward of individual liberties. This is why handguns are legal here, this is why drugs (should be) legal here, this is why we have such a privatized system and were characterized as the "land of opportunity" for so long. We run on a dangerous yet rewarding basis. We are essentially Highway to the Dangerzone on a literal level. [editline]07:08PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Trotsky;16679014]Wow, that's nice and one sided of you. I'm ingorant on this because I don't agree with you? The reason I don't see that as a "Flaw" is because if the man goes ahead and smokes again, so be it, the government should help him, he's a human being. now, I know you have a hatred for all things human, Lankist, but yous till have to acknowledge the fact all humans should have the same chance at life. The one thing I've noticed in your spiteful, anti-human, arrogant, lolbertarian rants is how you favor money above EVERYTHING else. So fucking what if your taxes go into helping a guy who brought his problems on himself. With all the wasted money America has today, you're going to protest health? And by the way, genius, your money is already being wasted. America has the highest expenditure in the world. Why aren't you whining about the failures of Well guess what, Lankist, if the supposed "social engineering" you say exists in Europe fails as much as you say, then why hasn't Europe fallen into chaos? Are you implying cigarettes are not bad for you? A doctor trying to prevent a person from harming them self further is not social engineering. Sorry if that whole "Helping people in need" thing bothers you so much. If you have such a hatred for any ounce of compasion, then why don't you lock yourself up in a hole for the rest of your life.[/QUOTE] Between the poor grammar and syntax all I got out of that was the term "anti human" which is interesting to say the very least. I honestly can't reply to that because I do not understand the assertion. Could you please reformat and streamline the point, because I don't see any direct rebuttal to what I said. I don't get where you got nihilism out of that. I don't understand how you interpreted "social engineering is wrong" as "I get a boner watching people with cancer."

[QUOTE=Lankist;16679085] Between the poor grammar and syntax all I got out of that was the term "anti human" which is interesting to say the very least. I honestly can't reply to that because I do not understand the assertion. Could you please reformat and streamline the point, because I don't see any direct rebuttal to what I said.[/QUOTE] oh dear, I made two grammatical mistake. Well, there goes my argument, i r defeted.

[QUOTE=Athelus;16679064]Actually, no it isn't. Political conservatism is also aligned with liberalism, but the term is often misused. We generally consider the Bush Doctrine, for example, as a liberal viewpoint.[/QUOTE] Yes, conservatism and today's liberals both follow enlightenment thought, and in that sense they are liberal. But today's liberals are the left, and the conservatives the right. I was using 'liberal politics' in today's sense. I'm well aware that you can call both ideologies liberal. UK politics is a bit different, I have to say.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16679085]I don't disagree with the UK NHS. If it works for you guys it works, but our NHS is entirely different as is our political system. It simply would not work over here. Plus the UK government is about fifty times more competent than ours. The reason you guys can succeed, from a foreign perspective, is because you are much smaller and your government is much more unified. Our government runs on three basis tiers: Local, state and federal governments. Anything not in the Constitution falls to local and state government, where Federal government's job is to administrate the union itself and not its members. This system works for us because of how big we are. Each of our states has its own culture, geography, and even its own stereotypes. Fuck, our Texas is like your Ireland, always shooting its mouth off about the Union. Really the US is more like the EU than it is the UK. Each state runs more or less as a mildly independent nation-state with the union itself being a military and financial alliance between all fifty. Given this fact, and the Constitution being such a radically different foundation from the UK's base literature, our politics run on a completely different level. We are a more self-reliant society, and we are more willing to take the risk of unhealth and death for the sake of the reward of individual liberties. This is why handguns are legal here, this is why drugs (should be) legal here, this is why we have such a privatized system and were characterized as the "land of opportunity" for so long. We run on a dangerous yet rewarding basis. We are essentially Highway to the Dangerzone on a literal level.[/QUOTE] Er... actually Ireland is a seperate country, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have their own parliaments and act like states to England's parliament which acts as the Federal Government. Hell, this year we even adopt an american style Supreme Court... And please, never compare the US to the EU, it's just not the same thing. As for our government being competent and unified, you should probably be aware that we may have a hung parliament next election, so it may be completeley stuffed... Actually, our politicians have gone into overdrive to copy the US recently. I'm just hoping for a written constitution...

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16679160]oh dear, I made two grammatical mistake. Well, there goes my argument, i r defeted.[/QUOTE] No, it's that you didn't make a direct rebuttal to social engineering. You only said I hate people and that I have no compassion and should die. You don't seem to be able to make out a difference between "healthcare cannot be entrusted to the government" and "We should have absolutely no healthcare."

[QUOTE=Lankist;16674075]So smokers who get lung cancer get surgery with no prefferential treatment above or below someone who has lung cancer who does not smoke. [editline]03:59PM[/editline] Snuwoods is arguing a rhetoric. I am arguing purely rational downfalls to an NHS like: -Government Mandated Health -Detriments to Drug legalization -Clear and approaching danger of Social Engineering -Egregious violations of an individual's right to live their life by their own accord. -The heavy taxation of those individuals. He is arguing: Health is not a right because even though I do not have a firm understanding of what rights are and what rights we enjoy in the united states and even though I am not engaging in the creation of logical counterpoints to MY OWN argument I know this shit is for real. We are not on the same side.[/QUOTE] Stop Lankist - I fully comprehend what my argument is. I'll even remember to use the correct capitalization with your name. You're welcome. I argued, thus far, that health is not a right because health is directly affected by your own personal decisions. Ergo, it would be completely untenable to make someone compulsorarily pay for the mistake of another person.

[QUOTE=Athelus;16679189]Er... actually Ireland is a seperate country, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have their own parliaments and act like states to Englands parliament which acts as the Federal Government. Hell, this year we even adopt an american style Supreme Court... And please, never compare the US to the EU, it's just not the same thing.[/quote] But what you said is identical to the US system. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and shit act as independent nation states and answer to a central government. That's how it works here. That's why we have our tenth amendment. [quote]As for our government being competent and unified, you should probably be aware that we may have a hung parliament next election, so it may be completeley stuffed... Actually, our politicians have gone into overdrive to copy the US recently. I'm just hoping for a written constitution...[/QUOTE] Has the modern iteration of the English government ever started internment camps for a specific racial group of the citizenry?

[QUOTE=Lankist;16679244]But what you said is identical to the US system. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and shit act as independent nation states and answer to a central government. That's how it works here. That's why we have our tenth amendment.[/QUOTE] That's what I meant, just saying how it's more similar than you think. [QUOTE=Lankist;16679244] Has the modern iteration of the English government ever started internment camps for a specific racial group of the citizenry?[/QUOTE] You should see how long you can be held without charge here now... Clue: US=2 days UK=28 days (Prime Minister is pushing for 42)

[QUOTE=Lankist;16679201]No, it's that you didn't make a direct rebuttal to social engineering. You only said I hate people and that I have no compassion and should die. You don't seem to be able to make out a difference between "healthcare cannot be entrusted to the government" and "We should have absolutely no healthcare."[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing for social engineering. You claimed Social engineering makes up NHC, I'm saying not in the case of Europe. The British government does a fine job running healthcare.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16679284]I'm not arguing for social engineering. You claimed Social engineering makes up NHC, I'm saying not in the case of Europe. The British government does a fine job running healthcare.[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about the UK NHS. I am talking about the U.S. proposed NHS which is entirely different. Our proposition is fraught with social engineering schemes. I've said time and time again I have nothing against the UK NHS. If it works for you guys it works.