'Evil and Orwellian' – America's right turns its fire on Britain's NHS - Polidicks

[QUOTE=James*;16697044]IMO everyone should be entitled to necessities[/QUOTE] There you go with "entitlements"; look , the only thing people are entitled to is their own free will and their own individual liberty. The miracle of our society is that you can get wherever you want through work, if you start entitling people to things obtained otherwise through their own labor, then you strip people of their liberty in that they can no longer support themselves through their own actions. Let people have the standard of living they create for themselves, not the standard of living dictated to them by the government.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697042]Are you kidding- illegal immigrants are a huge part of the healthcare debate because of the sheer number of them. Any sort of public option is going to include funding the healthcare of illegal immigrants with taxpayer dollars.[/QUOTE] No they aren't. There won't be exceptions for illegal immigrants because they are unaccountable. This is just the fact of the matter. If you see this as an issue it is going to take an entirely separate immigration reform to solve it, doing things like ensuring say 5-10 years with stable employment in-country is an automatic citizenship, becoming more generous with greencards and visas, and lowering the costs of actually becoming a citizen. There is always going to be a market for illegal immigrants, though, because there will always be employers wanting to pay lower than minimum wage and there will always be immigrants happy to work for less if it means a job.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697087]There you go with "entitlements"; look , the only thing people are entitled to is their own free will and their own individual liberty. The miracle of our society is that you can get wherever you want through work, if you start entitling people to things obtained otherwise through their own labor, then you strip people of their liberty in that they can no longer support themselves through their own actions.[/QUOTE] I'm only talking the very basics, giving poor people enough money to feed themselves is not a disincentive for work for most of us. Sure I could live off benefits if I wanted to, but I want more than that and that's why I work.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16697104]No they aren't. There won't be exceptions for illegal immigrants because they are unaccountable. This is just the fact of the matter. If you see this as an issue it is going to take an entirely separate immigration reform to solve it, doing things like ensuring say 5-10 years with stable employment in-country is an automatic citizenship, becoming more generous with greencards and visas, and lowering the costs of actually becoming a citizen. There is always going to be a market for illegal immigrants, though, because there will always be employers wanting to pay lower than minimum wage and there will always be immigrants happy to work for less if it means a job.[/QUOTE] Are you saying that under a single payer system illegals will not be treated if they enter a hospital with a problem? [editline]07:15PM[/editline] [QUOTE=James*;16697132]I'm only talking the very basics, giving poor people enough money to feed themselves is not a disincentive for work for most of us. Sure I could live off benefits if I wanted to, but I want more than that and that's why I work.[/QUOTE] Fact of the matter is that it strips them of their individual liberty if you start giving them handouts- if they rely on the government then they aren't free.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697139]Fact of the matter is that it strips them of their individual liberty if you start giving them handouts- if they rely on the government then they aren't free.[/QUOTE] That seems a bit of a shallow argument based on ideology more than reason tbh. No one forces free money on them.

They are just doing this to undercut the left's references to the NHS as an example of how well government health care plans can be run. It's bullshit but it's simple politics. The crazies will believe it, the normal conservatives will take it with a grain of salt, and everyone else will ignore it because that's how democracy works. :911:

[QUOTE=James*;16697275]That seems a bit of a shallow argument based on ideology more than reason tbh. No one forces free money on them.[/QUOTE] It's not based on ideology, it's based on the Constitution.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697334]It's not based on ideology, it's based on the Constitution.[/QUOTE] So are you saying that welfare payments, that the US already gives, are unconstitutional?

[QUOTE=James*;16697362]So are you saying that welfare payments, that the US already gives, are unconstitutional?[/QUOTE] Yes, because they violate individual liberty as I already said.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697390]Yes, because they violate individual liberty as I already said.[/QUOTE] I don't agree they do violate individual liberty, they aren't stopping anyone from doing anything beyond their will. If anything it gives people more options and more freedom.

[QUOTE=James*;16697442]I don't agree they do violate individual liberty, they aren't stopping anyone from doing anything beyond their will. If anything it gives people more options and more freedom.[/QUOTE] you shouldn't be so conciliatory in the face of fuckin' dumb arguments bro

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16696925]Do you want all these illegal immigrants to get free healthcare paid for by the US taxpayer? Nobody "deserves" healthcare so much as they deserve a house or a car; as is everything else in this world, healthcare is a good that is bought and sold. If you cannot pay for healthcare, you cannot have it same as if you cannot pay for a TV or for a loaf of bread.[/QUOTE] I tend to agree but who is going to campaign on that? The current Medicaid program is an astounding failure and insurance companies are constantly wriggling out of taxes and government regulation. The fact that Goldman-Sachs's financial ventures were insured by AIG is astounding. Think of this bill as fixing a leak in uncle sam's wallet, because we are pissing away taxpayer money already without even being able to help the people it is being spent on. Who do you think pays for hospital care for an uninsured gunshot victim if he dies? If he lives hospital bills may bankrupt him. There is to much money disappearing right now to continue applying these free-market laize-faire economic ideas to healthcare. In your world, Ryan, emergency care could only be provided if someone could pay. If not than the taxpayer will continue to pay for dying people who could have been saved and that old fuck's power chair that i keep seeing on TV.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697488]you shouldn't be so conciliatory in the face of fuckin' dumb arguments bro[/QUOTE] I'm not a confrontational person. I take it that's not actually your opinion then, are you just mocking Lankist or something?

[QUOTE=Jewsus;16697571]I tend to agree but who is going to campaign on that? The current Medicaid program is an astounding failure and insurance companies are constantly wriggling out of taxes and government regulation. The fact that Goldman-Sachs's financial ventures were insured by AIG is astounding. Think of this bill as fixing a leak in uncle sam's wallet, because we are pissing away taxpayer money already without even being able to help the people it is being spent on. Who do you think pays for hospital care for an uninsured gunshot victim if he dies? If he lives hospital bills may bankrupt him. There is to much money disappearing right now to continue applying these free-market laize-faire economic ideas to healthcare. In your world, Ryan, emergency care could only be provided if someone could pay. If not than the taxpayer will continue to pay for dying people who could have been saved and that old fuck's power chair that i keep seeing on TV.[/QUOTE] why would you tend to agree with an opinion as abhorrent and infantile as that

[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697612]why would you tend to agree with an opinion as abhorrent and infantile as that[/QUOTE] Because in principle I don't agree with giving people things they don't deserve. For instance I don't like welfare. But it is not fiscally, politically or humanly sound to offer anything less than a small form of government run health care program. That's why I "tend to agree" but in fact don't in this case.

[QUOTE=Xesum;16648515]American's that are being ignorant = :downs:[/QUOTE] specifically right wing americans. not all of us are ignorant.

[QUOTE=Jewsus;16697712]Because in principle I don't agree with giving people things they don't deserve. For instance I don't like welfare. But it is not fiscally, politically or humanly sound to offer anything less than a small form of government run health care program. That's why I "tend to agree" but in fact don't in this case.[/QUOTE] Do people deserve to live in poverty with no means to escape? Do people deserve help from the government if they are in poverty with no means to escape? If you think welfare of all things is wrong, then your priorities as far as society is concerned are misplaced. There are far greater wrongs that affect people in far more negative ways than welfare. What is truly wrong is how rich the United States is yet how backwards we are relative to the rest of the world. [editline]07:55PM[/editline] [QUOTE=M_B;16697769]specifically right wing americans. not all of us are ignorant.[/QUOTE] naw Americans by and large are pretty fucking dumb

[QUOTE=Athelus;16696353]Wearing bright colours and standing in a field is the best way to avoid enemy fire.[/QUOTE] Reverse psychology. [img]http://d2k5.com/sa_emots/emot-smug.gif[/img] [editline]08:30PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;16697847]Do people deserve to live in poverty with no means to escape? Do people deserve help from the government if they are in poverty with no means to escape? If you think welfare of all things is wrong, then your priorities as far as society is concerned are misplaced. There are far greater wrongs that affect people in far more negative ways than welfare. What is truly wrong is how rich the United States is yet how backwards we are relative to the rest of the world. [editline]07:55PM[/editline] naw Americans by and large are pretty fucking dumb[/QUOTE] People are pretty fucking dumb. It's just a rule of thumb of humanity. [editline]08:32PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Jewsus;16697712]Because in principle I don't agree with giving people things they don't deserve. For instance I don't like welfare. But it is not fiscally, politically or humanly sound to offer anything less than a small form of government run health care program. That's why I "tend to agree" but in fact don't in this case.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah oh Lord God, please, tell us what the poor of the world deserve. Tell us what they should have based on their lower status! Speak unto us and give us your divine and infallible view of the world! You're a naive asshole who thinks he can judge millions of people offhand.

Not that you care, but the majority of Britain probably [i]really[/i] hate America right now. Everyone here complains about the NHS a bit, but it's always directed at the bosses or politicians badly managing it. The NHS is somewhat of a sacred institution over here - probably because of all the lives it saves and stuff, you know, that sort of boring stuff. And the fact that no matter how bad things are, no matter how poor you are, you know you'll still be getting some pretty excellent medical care. Isn't it kinda ironic that they describe an institution providing free - high quality - medical care to all as 'evil', while in their own system people die because they can't afford to be treated? Isn't that somewhat like a sick corporate dystopia?

Excuse me, but please stop shoving your rhetoric down our throats. I don't want my children growing up in a country that can't make money by denying health-care to others.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16704562]Excuse me, but please stop shoving your rhetoric down our throats. I don't want my children growing up in a country that can't make money by denying health-care to others.[/QUOTE] Not disagreeing, but what does "can't make money by denying health-care to others" mean?

[QUOTE=Hivemind;16704774]Not disagreeing, but what does "can't make money by denying health-care to others" mean?[/QUOTE] Well... health insurance companies do one thing as a business. Finding ways to pay as little as possible for the client. If they fail, they pay more and lose money. I want my kids to have the opportunity to do such great work one day.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16704839]Well... health insurance companies do one thing as a business. Finding ways to pay as little as possible for the client. If they fail, they pay more and lose money. I want my kids to have the opportunity to do such great work one day.[/QUOTE] Ah, I see, and I agree, such people are truly saints - it has indeed always been my dream to do such things, right after my internship in hell of course.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16678587] That dude Zeke11something or whatever went around saying we should let the entirety of Africa die so we can invade and use it to grow corn for ethanol-based fuel. Then he went on to say Africa is making no progress and its inhabitants are stupid idiots incapable of running their own government and they believe in raping virgins. I called him a fucking racist idiot. [/QUOTE] Only that's not what I said, and I didn't rate you dumb.

[QUOTE=Hivemind;16704442]Not that you care, but the majority of Britain probably [i]really[/i] hate America right now. Everyone here complains about the NHS a bit, but it's always directed at the bosses or politicians badly managing it. The NHS is somewhat of a sacred institution over here - probably because of all the lives it saves and stuff, you know, that sort of boring stuff. And the fact that no matter how bad things are, no matter how poor you are, you know you'll still be getting some pretty excellent medical care. Isn't it kinda ironic that they describe an institution providing free - high quality - medical care to all as 'evil', while in their own system people die because they can't afford to be treated? Isn't that somewhat like a sick corporate dystopia?[/QUOTE] america's a lost cause fuck all it would take is to open medicare up to everyone and disband medicaid

[QUOTE=Lankist;16696800]The UDHR is a joke. [editline]02:56PM[/editline] And what the fuck is this about mexicans?[/QUOTE] Not everyone hates humanity like you, Lankist.

[img]http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8140/leftvsconservatards.png[/img] It's funny because it's true.

Also notice how the organizations that put together the protests are advertised plainly in the open in an anti-war protest, but concealed and secret in a "tea party" protest.

America should fucking get an NHS like system , you faggots don't want to pay extra taxes but [b] wait until your insurance expires and you break your back. Who is laughing now?[/b]

[QUOTE=Hemroid_Man;16718752]America should fucking get an NHS like system , you faggots don't want to pay extra taxes but [b] wait until your insurance expires and you break your back. Who is laughing now?[/b][/QUOTE] You are correct, this thread is now stupid and pointless because you've given some logical answer.