'Evil and Orwellian' – America's right turns its fire on Britain's NHS - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Wolf_Marine;16725484]And we can trust a government overrun by lobbyists for every business imaginable?[/QUOTE] hmm, maybe we should restrict lobbyi- NO THAT'S AGAINST THE FREE MARKET besides, you understand that the vast majority of big corporate lobbyists are lobbying against a public option for health care, right?

[QUOTE=Wolf_Marine;16725484]And we can trust a government overrun by lobbyists for every business imaginable? [/QUOTE] Uh... Not that I want to get back into this thread or anything, but lobbyists are literally the representatives of corporate interests, and you're saying that's inferior to holding a plan with the corporations themselves?

[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;16730017]hmm, maybe we should restrict lobbyi- NO THAT'S AGAINST THE FREE MARKET besides, you understand that the vast majority of big corporate lobbyists are lobbying against a public option for health care, right?[/QUOTE] FYI lobbyists actually contribute a lot besides corporate opinion. They spend a lot of time drafting legislation in lieu of their respective congressman. If we do too much fucking with lobbyists our legislative process will slow down tremendously. Shit, odds are the health proposal was drafted by lobbyists at several points in time.

[QUOTE=Vandl92;16648819]This just in. Government sucks everywhere, people die everywhere, get over it.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but America's healthcare is exceptionally bad.

[QUOTE=Droogie;16731986]I'm sorry but America's healthcare is exceptionally bad.[/QUOTE] im sorry but that post is exceptionally bad

[QUOTE=Lankist;16731996]im sorry but that post is exceptionally bad[/QUOTE] Because he's right?

[QUOTE=Trotsky;16732026]Because he's right?[/QUOTE] Oh, he's right? Because I don't see any reason to think he's right in that post. I see a blind assertion. [editline]03:32AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Trotsky;16732026]Because he's right?[/QUOTE] Also do you LIVE in the US?

You gave as much of a reason to debate me. Your post was identical in fact.

[QUOTE=Droogie;16732342]You gave as much of a reason to debate me. Your post was identical in fact.[/QUOTE] NAWW my sarcastic post about your post being a bad post with no legitimate reasons mentioned was on the same level as your dumb post with no legitimate reasons mentioned. I had no idea. [editline]03:41AM[/editline] I wasn't mirroring your poor argument in order to lampshade its invalidity, that's for sure.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16732363]NAWW my sarcastic post about your post being a bad post with no legitimate reasons mentioned was on the same level as your dumb post with no legitimate reasons mentioned. I had no idea. [editline]03:41AM[/editline] I wasn't mirroring your poor argument in order to lampshade its invalidity, that's for sure.[/QUOTE] Not the best way to go about it though, don't you think? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[QUOTE=Droogie;16732441]Not the best way to go about it though, don't you think? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.[/QUOTE] I could just call you uneducated and elaborate on that fact for the next hour if you would prefer.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16732465]I could just call you uneducated and elaborate on that fact for the next hour if you would prefer.[/QUOTE] Sure, I have time. [editline]07:57AM[/editline] Or you could just try not to make the same mistake again and type out your arguments in one post instead of dragging this on so much, would save us the next hour that's for sure.

[QUOTE=Droogie;16732480]Sure, I have time. [editline]07:57AM[/editline] Or you could just try not to make the same mistake again and type out your logic in one post instead of dragging this on so much, would save us the next hour that's for sure.[/QUOTE] You realize this is Lankist's wank material, right?

Well now I feel dirty.

[QUOTE=Droogie;16732480]Sure, I have time.[/QUOTE] You clearly have no formal education in the subjects of politics, geopolitics, macrofinancing, health care, insurance systems, insurance reform proposals, etc etc. You clearly have not read the proposed US health reform in any of its iterations, you clearly have no idea how to read that sort of legal documentation because, as previously stated, you are uneducated. If you WERE educated you would realize that such a complex issue as national health standards over here stateside is rarely fixed with direct intervention, history demonstrating that evolution has a much greater effect than revolution. While an expanded Medicare may sound good to someone as uneducated as you, it is in fact not much of a change from the current insurance standards. The government still gives itself room to play the insurance-runaround when someone files a claim, making a clear intention to investigate claims and refuse service to people on the exact same basis that private insurance does. These include drug use, that which they consider "self harm" and similar issues. Furthermore a nationalized health system deals massive blows to both the Drug Reform and Right-To-Die movements. When we let health take precedence over every other government affair, we make drug legalization entirely impossible. Not even marijuana is going to make it out of the woodwork after this thing is passed. Drug use will be enforced via the Super-Medicare system, drug users will be fucked with constantly and people who want to use drugs either for personal or civilly disobedient reasons will in fact AVOID going to hospitals and doctors under the same logic that prostitutes who get attacked on-the-job will not go to the police. As soon as the government knows you've committed a crime they have an obligation to pursue legal justice, whether it is ethically just or not. Lest we forget right to die. You think quadriplegics, terminal cancer patients and vegetables will ever get to decide when their lives get to end and on what terms when the fucking government will be footing the bill? Fuck no. Maybe you're one of these healthy idealistic idiots who thinks suicide is never the answer, but then again on the basis of American philosophy nobody gives a fuck what you think someone else should do. You are supposed to have supreme power over your body, and your body alone. That's why we can smoke and drink, that's why we can race cars and jump ramps on motorcycles, that's why drug users SHOULD have the ability to put into their body exactly what they want to, and that's why people who WANT to die have full right to make that decision for themselves. But no. You don't fucking think about this shit because you have the foresight of a deaf, headless mole. You want to ease your insecurities by thinking you're doing something good in the world without giving a fucking thought as to whether or not the shit you want to do is actually going to cause more harm than good, especially goddamn considering basic private insurance reform and government oversight of the aforementioned private companies can solve 100% of our medical problems with the addition of further incentives for employers to provide better benefits. Is that better? No subtleties because you are clearly incapable of perceiving them. [editline]04:11AM[/editline] Also do you even live here?

I really don't remember at any point suggesting a revolution or any form of direct intervention to be preferable. I said your healthcare was bad, I'll allow for that being a bit simple of a statement, I think so because having to support your own self with the help of the insurance companies (largely driven by profit) if available is in my opinion worse than having the government, as prone to employ their own management as they may be, support it's citizens. Your opinion is that the only morally correct route is keeping healthcare expensive and unavailable to so many to protect junkies and terminally ill people's right to euthanasia? You're right that the government will exercise the right to influence it's investment and as I mentioned, I'd prefer that to being denied insurance because I do drugs, engage in dangerous activities, et cetera. And yes, I'm relatively healthy myself (all of which I owe to my government funded healthcare plan) and try not to interfere with other's people personal life, even though it involves suicide although I've seen first hand the damage it does, and keeps doing, to those related to those who do take their own life.

Our health care is superb, our system of insurance and payment is bad. [editline]04:44AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Droogie;16732923]Your opinion is that the only morally correct route is keeping healthcare expensive and unavailable to so many to protect junkies and terminally ill people's right to euthanasia?[/QUOTE] I assume this is a question and the answer is no. GG gr8 reeding m8

[QUOTE=Lankist;16732933]Our health care is superb, our system of insurance and payment is bad. [editline]04:44AM[/editline] I assume this is a question and the answer is no. GG gr8 reeding m8[/QUOTE] sorry my village only affords one book :( [editline]08:50AM[/editline] And I agree your healthcare is good in it's practices, it's the payment system that I was under the impression is a part of it, which is the problem, on top of that comes the insurance policies. Which is a shame since it limits it's availability to a lot of people.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16732261]Oh, he's right? Because I don't see any reason to think he's right in that post. I see a blind assertion. [editline]03:32AM[/editline] Also do you LIVE in the US?[/QUOTE] 5 years. Blind assertion? Instead of making a shit post, ask him to elaborate. By that logic, you make a fuck load of blind assertions. [QUOTE=Lankist;16732465]I could just call you uneducated and elaborate on that fact for the next hour if you would prefer.[/QUOTE] Why are you such an arrogant prick? You almost always lose arguments, why do you continue? [editline]10:27AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;16732933]Our health care is superb, our system of insurance and payment is bad.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html[/url] Oh look at that, Cuba's slightly less better then you guys. This doesn't even cover expenditure, its quality.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16732595]You clearly have no formal education in the subjects of politics, geopolitics, macrofinancing, health care, insurance systems, insurance reform proposals, etc etc. You clearly have not read the proposed US health reform in any of its iterations, you clearly have no idea how to read that sort of legal documentation because, as previously stated, you are uneducated. If you WERE educated you would realize that such a complex issue as national health standards over here stateside is rarely fixed with direct intervention, history demonstrating that evolution has a much greater effect than revolution. While an expanded Medicare may sound good to someone as uneducated as you, it is in fact not much of a change from the current insurance standards. The government still gives itself room to play the insurance-runaround when someone files a claim, making a clear intention to investigate claims and refuse service to people on the exact same basis that private insurance does. These include drug use, that which they consider "self harm" and similar issues. Furthermore a nationalized health system deals massive blows to both the Drug Reform and Right-To-Die movements. When we let health take precedence over every other government affair, we make drug legalization entirely impossible. Not even marijuana is going to make it out of the woodwork after this thing is passed. Drug use will be enforced via the Super-Medicare system, drug users will be fucked with constantly and people who want to use drugs either for personal or civilly disobedient reasons will in fact AVOID going to hospitals and doctors under the same logic that prostitutes who get attacked on-the-job will not go to the police. As soon as the government knows you've committed a crime they have an obligation to pursue legal justice, whether it is ethically just or not. Lest we forget right to die. You think quadriplegics, terminal cancer patients and vegetables will ever get to decide when their lives get to end and on what terms when the fucking government will be footing the bill? Fuck no. Maybe you're one of these healthy idealistic idiots who thinks suicide is never the answer, but then again on the basis of American philosophy nobody gives a fuck what you think someone else should do. You are supposed to have supreme power over your body, and your body alone. That's why we can smoke and drink, that's why we can race cars and jump ramps on motorcycles, that's why drug users SHOULD have the ability to put into their body exactly what they want to, and that's why people who WANT to die have full right to make that decision for themselves. But no. You don't fucking think about this shit because you have the foresight of a deaf, headless mole. You want to ease your insecurities by thinking you're doing something good in the world without giving a fucking thought as to whether or not the shit you want to do is actually going to cause more harm than good, especially goddamn considering basic private insurance reform and government oversight of the aforementioned private companies can solve 100% of our medical problems with the addition of further incentives for employers to provide better benefits. Is that better? No subtleties because you are clearly incapable of perceiving them. [editline]04:11AM[/editline] Also do you even live here?[/QUOTE] hey that post of yours was super cool and all trotsky but i'm not going to engage you in your typical "dhur you lose and im not going to respond to your points" arguments when you too have clearly never even come close to reading the proposal. my post is up there [editline]05:33AM[/editline] ITT trotsky loses like always [editline]05:33AM[/editline] fulfill your destiny and become stalin's bitch

Being pathalogically stubborn is truly a markable trait.

Hmm, once again, not trying to get back in here, but due to the WHO abandoning the production of their healthcare rankings lists due to "the complexity of the task", I have my doubts as to the accuracy of their previous lists in many contexts.

[QUOTE=johnlukeg;16733351]Hmm, once again, not trying to get back in here, but due to the WHO abandoning the production of their healthcare rankings lists due to "the complexity of the task", I have my doubts as to the accuracy of their previous lists in many contexts.[/QUOTE] Remember we're talking about the same organization that is currently flipping their shit over swine flu and is assisting David Caruso's pun-making career.

[QUOTE=Lankist;16733357]Remember we're talking about the same organization that is currently flipping their shit over swine flu and is assisting David Caruso's pun-making career.[/QUOTE] fucker is always either wearing glasses, or taking off glasses

[QUOTE=Lankist;16731781]FYI lobbyists actually contribute a lot besides corporate opinion. They spend a lot of time drafting legislation in lieu of their respective congressman. If we do too much fucking with lobbyists our legislative process will slow down tremendously. Shit, odds are the health proposal was drafted by lobbyists at several points in time.[/QUOTE] I'd rather have a slow, fair(er) government than one run by corporate interests. [editline]04:11AM[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;16733363]fucker is always either wearing glasses, or taking off glasses[/QUOTE] he never puts on the glasses because he doesn't have to, they grow from his face like a never ending series of tumors

[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;16733605]I'd rather have a slow, fair(er) government than one run by corporate interests.[/QUOTE] If you actually think we are run by corporate interests you are a lost cause. Lobbyists drafting legislation for the congressmen they are assigned to =/= running an entire company on corporate interests. Lobbyists drafting legislation = giving congressmen time to handle the large bills while their subordinates focus on the minor bills. FYI the health proposal is just as much a corporate interest as anything else. [editline]06:20AM[/editline] We wouldn't have been able to churn out five versions of the bill in just a few months had not been for some other demographic lending a hand with the smaller stuff. [editline]06:21AM[/editline] If you're in favor for a slower process you're essentially in favor of reform and not immediate government intervention. You can't demand an immediate response on one hand and then say they can't use resources to speed everything up on the other.

This thread stopped being about healthcare reform oh, say, three days ago, and is now about how much Lankist can troll Facepunch before he's banned for Trolling for the Nth time.

How is he trolling?

[QUOTE=James*;16734718]How is he trolling?[/QUOTE] His primary goal being to argue with everyone in on Facepunch. He doesn't care about Healthcare Reform, just arguing with people for the sake of arguing. Just the way I see it.

[QUOTE=Madman_Andre;16734754]His primary goal being to argue with everyone in on Facepunch. He doesn't care about Healthcare Reform, just arguing with people for the sake of arguing. Just the way I see it.[/QUOTE] That's good ol' lankist for you.