That's so raven and Corey in the house are originals though
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792007]Be cliff secord, the main character of the franchise since 1982. Would you not care if black panther was made a white teen? If spawn were made a white guy (before the origin, I'm aware he comes back to earth white briefly)
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Hell Id be annoyed if they changed his hair color[/QUOTE]
I was annoyed when they changed the Mandarin in IM3. Then later realized I was being petty and that it's inconsequential. And that was a complete change of archetype - a change of appearance is even more so
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50792024]Tell me what? That I'm a vindictive idiot for rolling my eyes at a very sleazy trend in media?[/QUOTE]
I never said idiot (hey, didn't you talk about "putting words in your mouth" not even 30 minutes ago? Follow your own advice, bud)
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ithon;50792065]You probably live a sheltered life from these people, it's a bigger impact and a larger group of people doing this then you think.[/QUOTE]
nah I just don't actively look for controversy where there is none
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792085]I was annoyed when they changed the Mandarin in IM3. Then later realized I was being petty and that it's inconsequential[/QUOTE]
they didn't though
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Aldritch Killian isn't the real mandarin just like the actor that was advertised isn't. Watch the All Hail The King short
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
I agree with you though if it WAS meant to be the real mandarin and not a identity thief it'd be fucking stupid, I thought it was when I thought so too
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792105]they didn't though
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Aldritch Killian isn't the real mandarin just like the actor that was advertised isn't. Watch the All Hail The King short
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
I agree with you though if it WAS meant to be the real mandarin and not a identity thief it'd be fucking stupid, I thought it was when I thought so too[/QUOTE]
IMO the one-shot was an afterthought. Aside from Ghostbusters, the mention of the Mandarin in All Hail The King is the most overt example of pandering I've seen in this thread so far.
Not that I mind it, it's easily the best one-shot Marvel has put out, and the Mandarin's re-introduction is just as inconsequential as his change
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;50790950]what
how at all was rey being strong because she was a woman?
kylo had been shown to be a twat beforehand and she was straight up told she was powerful. its not like star wars has every shyed away from overpowered characters[/QUOTE]
The problem with Rey is that there wasn't any buildup or characterization.
She was just suddenly really powerful with the Force. Luke at least had a small amount of proper training and spiritual guidance from Ben.
Rey was just 100% fucking perfect and dandy from the start. She fixes the hyperdrive, for gods sake. The HYPERDRIVE. You know, the one thing that even Han and Chewie, experienced pilots, couldn't fix.
Rey was written incredibly poorly and you can't deny that. Give me one example of character development for Rey in the movie. You can't, because there is none.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50791964]I just don't agree with your concerns??? [b]You can be as frustrated as you want about that, it isn't suddenly ly going to make me mad about movies with female leads.[/b] I hear your arguments, I understand your position, I just do not agree.[/QUOTE]
Jesus, BDA, case-in-fuckin-point dude, you dont have a single clue why people get mad when stuff like this happens.
Its like you didnt even read what anyone actually said and you're just jumping to conclusions.
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792085]I was annoyed when they changed the Mandarin in IM3. Then later realized I was being petty and that it's inconsequential. And that was a complete change of archetype - a change of appearance is even more so
I never said idiot (hey, didn't you talk about "putting words in your mouth" not even 30 minutes ago? Follow your own advice, bud)
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
nah I just don't actively look for controversy where there is none[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792170]IMO the one-shot was an afterthought. Aside from Ghostbusters, the mention of the Mandarin in All Hail The King is the most overt example of pandering I've seen in this thread so far.
Not that I mind it, it's easily the best one-shot Marvel has put out, and the Mandarin's re-introduction is just as inconsequential as his change[/QUOTE]
Theres a massive problem with Iron Man 3's Mandarin twist besides that it shits all over the character, in that it shits all over the previous movies too. The Ten Rings organization, the Mandarins organization, THE REAL Mandarins organization, were introduced in the very
And while the twist was pretty interesting, the actual Mandarin on screen would've been just as great if not better. All of Iron Mans' solo movie villains were just dudes in suits, and continued to just be dudes in suits, when Mandarin could've broken that mold and been crazy as shit with alien magic-tech to contrast Iron Mans hard science.
"Making rocketeer a black teenage girl isn't pandering, you know what's pandering? Clarifying that Mandarin isn't actually white washed"
Jesus
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792007]Be cliff secord, the main character of the franchise since 1982. Would you not care if black panther was made a white teen? If spawn were made a white guy (before the origin, I'm aware he comes back to earth white briefly)
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Hell Id be annoyed if they changed his hair color[/QUOTE]
People always use Black Panther as an example and it's ridiculous. His race is important, he was the first black superhero! Other people not so much.
Just pointing out how terrible that example is.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50792316]People always use Black Panther as an example and it's ridiculous. His race is important, he was the first black superhero! Other people not so much.
Just pointing out how terrible that example is.[/QUOTE]
to be fair there's only a handful of original black superheroes to choose from since yknow people insist on just changing races of other heroes, instead of making a real effort to create a real black hero
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
What about Static Shock?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Falcon?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
War Machine?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Hell War Machine is practically black Iron Man but he has his own fucking identity and he's actually really cool
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50792316]People always use Black Panther as an example and it's ridiculous. His race is important, he was the first black superhero! Other people not so much.
Just pointing out how terrible that example is.[/QUOTE]
What about Luke Cage?
The Falcon?
Static Shock?
Killer Croc, Bane, White Tiger, Spawn, Goliath, War Machine, John Stewart, Blue Beetle III, Amadeus Cho, Steel, Red Wolf, Shang Chi, Patriot, Storm, Bishop, Sunfire?
How about those? Black, hispanic, asian, native american?
What if those were changed?
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792326]to be fair there's only a handful of original black superheroes to choose from since yknow people insist on just changing races of other heroes, instead of making a real effort to create a real black hero
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
What about Static Shock?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Falcon?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
War Machine?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Hell War Machine is practically black Iron Man but he has his own fucking identity and he's actually really cool[/QUOTE]
Also Blade. Blade is awesome. Best part about him is that they never made a big deal about him being black. He just kind of is. It's a trivial part of his character.
That's what I'm talking about. We need more heroes like Blade. He's not a copycat character and him being a minority is portrayed and advertised as totally normal, as it should be. I forgot Blade and so did Aaron because he's displayed as just a hero instead of explicitly a "black hero", even though he is black and a hero
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Steel and War Machine are also good examples because they're spiritual, they don't share names with the people they're inspired by. They have their own divided identity that makes them special so you don't have to say "the iron man that was a black girl" like you do with Riri Williams
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
It's not even just race really, Nightwing is the same ethnicity as Batman but it's still cool that rather than being "Batman but in Bludhaven" he's Nightwing with his own identity and set of weapons and abilities, even if he did eventually moonlight as Batman, but there it's ok because he was established for like 70 years as Robin and it made sense he'd carry on the banner for his adoptive father
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Then there's Eddie and Flash, Flash became Agent Venom instead of just normal Venom and has his own version of the suit and uses firearms and military tactics. Much better than when they made Mac Gargan Venom for some reason.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792315]"Making rocketeer a black teenage girl isn't pandering, you know what's pandering? Clarifying that Mandarin isn't actually white washed"
Jesus[/QUOTE]
They literally admitted that All Hail the King was an apology to the fans. Is your head so far up your ass that self-proclaimed pandering seems less pander-y to you than a negligible switch of appearance? Get real.
Yeah except the real mandarin was set up as that nationality in the first film and it was just clarifying that Killian wasn't Mandarin. Also since that's how it was supposed to be it isn't exactly "pandering".
[quote]Gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.)[/quote]
I don't see how letting your audience know that they didn't actually change anything fits this definition
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
The apology was for tricking the audience into thinking you'd see the real Mandarin in the trailers, not for Aldrich Killian, a character that already existed in the source material. The short was to give a tease of the true Mandarin so people wouldn't give up hope of seeing him.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792538]Yeah except the real mandarin was set up as that nationality in the first film and it was just clarifying that Killian wasn't Mandarin. Also since that's how it was supposed to be it isn't exactly "pandering".
I don't see how letting your audience know that they didn't actually change anything fits this definition[/QUOTE]
You're talking out of your ass
[quote]"Marvel saw so many negative things they made a whole other movie just to apologize called [sic] Hail to the King," Black told Uproxx's Mike Ryan when the topic of negative online comments regarding Iron Man 3 came up. "In which they said, 'No, no, the Mandarin is still alive. That wasn't him. There's a real Mandarin." The only reason it was made, he added, was to apologize to angry fans.[/quote]
[url]http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/16/iron-man-3-director-shane-black-says-real-mandarin-was-marvels-apology-to-fans[/url]
I think the reason Blade worked so much was because not only was he his own character, but he was totally unique in just about every sense. He was a half man, half vampire, and he HUNTED vampires.
Him being black was just trivial. That fact didn't stand out, it was just kind of there.
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
It's even more amazing that it hasn't been made a big deal of, because Blade isn't just black, he was originally British too.
also that interview has a pretty convenient bit for this discussion
[quote]Black also revealed there was an "early draft" of the film where the villain was a woman. The director was explicitly told by Marvel executives the villain could not be a woman "because, after consulting, [they] decided that toy won't sell as well it it's a female."[/quote]
so much for the "extremely visible trend" of pandering, huh
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792326]to be fair there's only a handful of original black superheroes to choose from since yknow people insist on just changing races of other heroes, instead of making a real effort to create a real black hero
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
What about Static Shock?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Falcon?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
War Machine?
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Hell War Machine is practically black Iron Man but he has his own fucking identity and he's actually really cool[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50792370]What about Luke Cage?
The Falcon?
Static Shock?
Killer Croc, Bane, White Tiger, Spawn, Goliath, War Machine, John Stewart, Blue Beetle III, Amadeus Cho, Steel, Red Wolf, Shang Chi, Patriot, Storm, Bishop, Sunfire?
How about those? Black, hispanic, asian, native american?
What if those were changed?[/QUOTE]
I think you could replace most of those without there being (much) of an uproar. Did they not get a new Falcon when Sam became Captain America? It's more of a mantle with those characters, same with War Machine, Blue Beetle, Patriot, Goliath, White Tiger, and I don't really know Spawn but maybe?
John Stewart is also ridiculous because he's just a Green Lantern, he has a backstory and personality but it's not the same as a superhero mantle. His race isn't really a defining part of the character but at the same time there would be no reason to change it, and an actual negative effect of changing it since there are more white characters than black.
Luke Cage is another major breakout black character, he's quite similar to Black Panther in that regard as being an original black character.
I can't tell if you're serious about Killer Croc because he is a crocodile man and not really black, white, asian or whatever, but yeah, nobody would care if they had a story where some other kid who wasn't black transformed into a Killer Croc kind of monster. It could actually be quite interesting if they went extreme and had a rich white kid change.
Storm, Bishop and Sunfire should again, not be changed unless it was a new related character who had similar powers and was the 'new Storm' or whatever, but even then I'm not sure if I see the point in a change like that.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792577]also that interview has a pretty convenient bit for this discussion
so much for the "extremely visible trend" of pandering, huh[/QUOTE]
what does marvel stopping an attempt at pandering have to do with rocketeer
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50792379]Also Blade. Blade is awesome. Best part about him is that they never made a big deal about him being black. He just kind of is. It's a trivial part of his character.[/QUOTE]
Blade, War Machine and Spawn are probably the best of the bunch. They're superheroes/antiheroes who happen to be black, not black dudes who are superheroes/antiheroes.
Their entire personalities don't gravitate towards them being black, and that makes them more special.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792565]You're talking out of your ass
[url]http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/16/iron-man-3-director-shane-black-says-real-mandarin-was-marvels-apology-to-fans[/url][/QUOTE]
Says right there in the thing you quoted that they were telling you the real Mandarin still exists and they didn't retcon anything
[quote]"In which they said, 'No, no, the Mandarin is still alive. That wasn't him. [/quote]
saying rude things doesn't make me read your quotes different
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50792582]I think you could replace most of those without there being (much) of an uproar. Did they not get a new Falcon when Sam became Captain America? It's more of a mantle with those characters, same with War Machine, Blue Beetle, Patriot, Goliath, White Tiger, and I don't really know Spawn but maybe?[/QUOTE]
Sam Wilson is Cap now but for all intents and purposes is still Falcon, just with a new paintjob. I dont like it. The rest? With the exception of Blue Beetle and White Tiger, none of those would likely go over well.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50792582]John Stewart is also ridiculous because he's just a Green Lantern, he has a backstory and personality but it's not the same as a superhero mantle. His race isn't really a defining part of the character but at the same time there would be no reason to change it, and an actual negative effect of changing it since there are more white characters than black.[/QUOTE]
Are you implying that turning white characters black is a positive change? I feel like, with some notable exceptions, changing the color of a character is pretty much always negative because that effort could go into making a new one. Some exemptions are the Michael Clarke Duncan Kingpin and Sam Jackson Fury.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50792582]I can't tell if you're serious about Killer Croc because he is a crocodile man and not really black, white, asian or whatever, but yeah, nobody would care if they had a story where some other kid who wasn't black transformed into a Killer Croc kind of monster. It could actually be quite interesting if they went extreme and had a rich white kid change.[/QUOTE]
Uh, what? Are you confusing Killer Croc with The Lizard? Killer Croc is the Batman villain, a black man with a skin condition that grew out of control. He's always been a black guy, whenever his family is shown in flashbacks they're black, in Suicide Squad, he's being played by a black dude.
In certain comics where they're not fucking idiots about the skin condition thing he actually looks it.
[t]http://i39.tinypic.com/vo0i8g.jpg[/t]
[t]https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5b0irjRYHSU/V22TAF8zvyI/AAAAAAAAnKY/FrXavgGTHF4QVfkHhxi-B-XlXrnZHFW2QCKgB/s1600/The%2BDark%2BKnight%2BReturns%2B-%2BThe%2BLast%2BCrusade%2B%25282016-%2529%2B001-033.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792610]Says right there in the thing you quoted that they were telling you the real Mandarin still exists and they didn't retcon anything
saying rude things doesn't make me read your quotes different[/QUOTE]
I wish it did, because you completely misread that quote
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792591]what does marvel stopping an attempt at pandering have to do with rocketeer[/QUOTE]
Sorry, what? Why was that pandering? Because it was a woman? Will you listen to yourself for a second, what you're saying is ridiculous and only serves to prove my point
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
You're crying "pandering!!" just because it involves a woman
Because changing a character's race/gender for fuckall reason is what we're talking about
Aldrich Killian isn't a woman
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792857]I wish it did, because you completely misread that quote
Sorry, what? Why was that pandering? Because it was a woman? Will you listen to yourself for a second, what you're saying is ridiculous and only serves to prove my point
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
You're crying "pandering!!" just because it involves a woman[/QUOTE]
In his defense, its because its a minority genderswap replacing a role formerly belonging to a white dude, which has been happening a lot recently in some form or another in relation to superheroes, most of them either terrible, poorly thought out, poorly executed, or just meh, with few actually being good.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792889]Because changing a character's race/gender for fuckall reason is what we're talking about
Aldrich Killian isn't a woman[/QUOTE]
Shane didn't say they were going to change Killian's gender, just they the female character would've served the purpose he did. Please, it's not that hard to grasp
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792889]Because changing a character's race/gender for fuckall reason is what we're talking about
Aldrich Killian isn't a woman[/QUOTE]
Sidenote, the woman comment thing was due to notorious psychopath and greedy creep Ike Perlmutter being on the MCU creative committee, which was disbanded because he was fucking with the movies.
Imagine thinking making Aldrich Killian a woman for female villain points isn't pandering
Plus all we have to go on is Shane Black's venting which isn't worth much at all. I remember when that interview was new. There's no proof that they shut down his genderswap "because toys"
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50792900]Shane didn't say they were going to change Killian's gender, just they the female character would've served the purpose he did. Please, it's not that hard to grasp[/QUOTE]
I saw the articles about this when it happened it was about Aldrich. In the one you linked he says "the villain was" too and the villain was Aldrich and Mandarin
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50792913]Imagine thinking making Aldrich Killian a woman for female villain points isn't pandering[/QUOTE]
Imagine being this bad at reading things
[QUOTE=AaronM202;50792909]Sidenote, the woman comment thing was due to notorious psychopath and greedy creep Ike Perlmutter being on the MCU creative committee, which was disbanded because he was fucking with the movies.[/QUOTE]
Link? That's interesting
[editline]28th July 2016[/editline]
Also you called it pandering first with your "look they're not pandering because they stopped a gendertwist at one point"
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