• Movie massacre proves need for armed citizens, says gun law expert
    151 replies, posted
[QUOTE=David29;36961242]Yeah, except I wasnt talking specifically about wars between two nuclear-armed countries. If he is limiting argument to that specifically, then he is hardly disproving my statement since I have shown nuclear weapons don't stop wars. So, no, not moot.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I was assuming you were responding to the post you were quoting.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;36957690]Imagine, oh, around fifty people pulling out guns in a crowded theater, in the dark, in the smoke...yeah, that would have improved things. About ten of them would have accidentally shot themselves just out of stress and adrenaline, another ten would have shot the person sitting next to them for the same reason, fifteen would have shot the first other person they saw with a gun, another ten would have been unable to fire at anyone because they couldn't bring themselves to hurt anyone, and the other five would have shot at the gunman while holding their guns with arms as floppy as the licorice sticks the theater sells. So maybe they hit the gunman, maybe they hit a bystander, maybe they hit nothing.[/QUOTE] The Wild West all over again.
[QUOTE=The golden;36961700]Oh cool. So instead of one person armed and shooting, we have 20 people armed and shooting. That would end smooth as butter. Oh yeah, throw smoke grenades into the mix and you have a really safe party![/QUOTE] Yeah the people who concealed carry that know how to use their weapons and know exactly who to shoot at (the guy in the armor with the assault rifle) are gonna make it worse? Smoke doesn't make you blind.
[QUOTE=kevlar jens;36960942][img]http://cinemasalem.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mark-wahlberg-.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] I hope this becomes a thing because it does a really good job.
[QUOTE=The golden;36961876]Smoke grenades in an enclosed space would pretty much destroy your ability to see your target and make sure no one is in the way. He also alleged used tear gas too. Between the smoke and the tear gas, vision is going to be severely impaired. Not a great time to be shooting a firearm with innocents around you.[/QUOTE] In a ventilated high ceiling movie theater? I've got no right to nit pick the conditions or the survivability or a possibly armed would be victim as much as you do. Plus I'd rather be shooting through smoke and take my chances at not hitting innocents around me then just stand there and wait for everyone to be killed around me.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;36957576]I hate it when people use a tragedy to boost their own agendas. That said, unless this guy can somehow prove to me that the tragedy could have been prevented/lessened if some of the other moviegoers had firearms of their own, this guy is COMPLETELY wrong. This is all a "what-if" scenario rather than anything based on hard evidence.[/QUOTE] Funny, you could say the same for anti-guns people.
Guns don't kill people, crazy people with guns kill people. The second amendment was created to protect the first.
[QUOTE=nivek;36961948]Plus I'd rather be shooting through smoke and take my chances at not hitting innocents[/QUOTE] No. Just no. Fourth rule of gun handling. Always be aware of your target and what is beyond it.
[QUOTE=David29;36961242]Yeah, except I wasnt talking specifically about wars between two nuclear-armed countries. If he is limiting argument to that specifically, then he is hardly disproving my statement since I have shown nuclear weapons don't stop wars. So, no, not moot.[/QUOTE] The nuclear programs of both India and Pakistan never stopped the conflicts between them, and in fact was a serious threat to global security.
this movie massacre proved we need to provide universal access to mental health care and put in place laws that don't make it so easy to get guns, especially assault rifles and pistols. it's imbecilic to think that a theater where everyone has a gun is safer than a theater where no one has one.
Turn it into an all out shootout, yeah, that'd be better. Everyone in panic, pulling guns in the dark, what could possibly go wrong. Nothing like giving everyone the power to decide the death of a person on the spot because, as we all know, people are by all means not idiots and have the best judgement in all situations.
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;36957836]In the U.S. (In a 2006 report), 68% of homicides were committed with firearms. In Australia (2006 again), 15% of them were committed with them guns, reduced to 13% with firearms in the new 2012 report.[/QUOTE] All that means is that people will start killing people in other ways
[QUOTE=The golden;36962025]Holy shit I hope you are never allowed to hold a firearm.[/QUOTE] I own many ;)
I work with guns every day. Gun control isn't the way- you only restrict the rights of those who own them and will use them for a good cause.
[QUOTE=nivek;36961948]In a ventilated high ceiling movie theater? I've got no right to nit pick the conditions or the survivability or a possibly armed would be victim as much as you do. Plus I'd rather be shooting through smoke and take my chances at not hitting innocents around me then just stand there and wait for everyone to be killed around me.[/QUOTE] jesus fuck. are you an example of the people we allow to carry firearms?
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36962480]All that means is that people will start killing people in other ways[/QUOTE] Not necessarily, America has quadruple the murder rate of Australia.
[QUOTE=ShadowSocks8;36961406]Ohhh facepunch. You guys really need a reality check. People who carry handguns know how to use them, they wouldn't just start shooting blindly at the sound of gunfire. That's how you get your license, you learn how to safely use the fucking gun. There is [B][U]much[/U][/B] more reason to believe that less people would have died if some civilians had been armed.[/QUOTE] This. In Alaska, any non-criminal citizen over the age of 21 is allowed to carry a concealed firearm [b]without[/b] a permit. There are certain stipulations and rules regarding interaction with police (you have to declare it and allow the police to 'secure' it for the duration of the interaction, which basically means unload it) and a few places you aren't allowed to carry concealed, but overall the law is pretty lax. In Anchorage, the largest city in the state, it isn't uncommon to see someone who is carrying a handgun. I have seen traffic stops take a little longer because a police officer is securing a legally possessed and carried firearm. At social gatherings, I see a number of people who have an empty holster on their belt (you are not allowed to carry on private property without the explicit consent of the owner.) A lot of women carry a firearm in a purse. Almost any time I go to a sporting goods store (Or even a Fred Meyer or Walmart), I see people purchasing firearms, and more often than not I see couples purchasing a handgun for self- or home defense. This being said, I rarely see, hear about, or read about incidents where a handgun was used in self defense and caused additional, unnecessary death or injury, and in my 23 years of living here I've never heard of an incident where there was a mass panic and people started shooting indiscriminately. Most people here that I've spoken with understand that firearms are dangerous, and that safety is extremely important. Part of safety is knowing how to operate and correctly use a firearm, and I see lots of people practicing doing just that down at the firing range, and doing so responsibly without putting everyone around them at risk. The really neat thing here is that [b]none[/b] of these people who are practicing and training themselves to correctly use a firearm are required by law to do so. State law doesn't mandate it; they are doing it of their own accord. So I think it is safe to say that a lot of people who choose to carry legally are proficient with their weapon. Like any other state, we have numerous incidences of violent confrontation. We have assaults, burglaries, rapes, etc. For the most part, we don't have a lot of mass shootings. Furthermore, most of the gun related deaths or injuries I have read about in the last five years have involved either A., a police officer shooting someone who was charging him with a melee weapon, or B., [i]fucking morons[/i] mixing firearms and alcohol, which [b]is not[/b] legal. Kind of an ironic side note is that the two most recent cases of firearms and alcohol mixing and causing death involved trained military personnel.
I personally will have get my carry and conceal permit. I've never been extremely paranoid--in fact, most gun owners are not paranoid hicks like most people would think. It all comes down to it being better to have it and not need it than to not have it and need it.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;36957690]Imagine, oh, around fifty people pulling out guns in a crowded theater, in the dark, in the smoke...yeah, that would have improved things. About ten of them would have accidentally shot themselves just out of stress and adrenaline, another ten would have shot the person sitting next to them for the same reason, fifteen would have shot the first other person they saw with a gun, another ten would have been unable to fire at anyone because they couldn't bring themselves to hurt anyone, and the other five would have shot at the gunman while holding their guns with arms as floppy as the licorice sticks the theater sells. So maybe they hit the gunman, maybe they hit a bystander, maybe they hit nothing.[/QUOTE] I said it before but I seriously cannot reiterate enough how fucking stupid this is. Something as ridiculous as this theoretical situation has never occurred (and most definitely will never occur). Explain to me how the fuck 20 people would accidentally shoot themselves or other people out of sheer adrenaline. It's a completely insane thing to think that that could even happen. First off, adrenaline and stress usually tend to make a person fight/focus better than normal, not go crazy and panic. Second, gun owners don't hear a gun shot, reach for their holster and start hammering the trigger before they even get it out, that's absurd. I can tell you've never actually operated a weapon before or talked to a person that does operate weapons. Please, educate yourself on gun control/the effects of adrenaline in a combat situation before you say stupid things.
[QUOTE=ShadowSocks8;36963248]I said it before but I seriously cannot reiterate enough how fucking stupid this is. Something as ridiculous as this theoretical situation has never occurred (and most definitely will never occur). Explain to me how the fuck 20 people would accidentally shoot themselves or other people out of sheer adrenaline. It's a completely insane thing to think that that could even happen. First off, adrenaline and stress usually tend to make a person fight/focus better than normal, not go crazy and panic. Second, gun owners don't hear a gun shot, reach for their holster and start hammering the trigger before they even get it out, that's absurd. I can tell you've never actually operated a weapon before or talked to a person that does operate weapons. Please, educate yourself on gun control/the effects of adrenaline in a combat situation before you say stupid things.[/QUOTE] The theater was full of tear gas.
[url]http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx[/url] situation in which CCW is a good idea well lit
[QUOTE=Falubii;36963280]The theater was full of tear gas.[/QUOTE] Anyone properly trained with a firearm obviously does not shoot blindly unless they can see their intended target. Many courses actually teach you to react to such public scenarios in an effective manner.
[QUOTE=nivek;36961948]In a ventilated high ceiling movie theater? I've got no right to nit pick the conditions or the survivability or a possibly armed would be victim as much as you do. Plus I'd rather be shooting through smoke and take my chances at not hitting innocents around me then just stand there and wait for everyone to be killed around me.[/QUOTE] I bet you believe in the concept of shooting to disable too.
[QUOTE=Falubii;36963280]The theater was full of tear gas.[/QUOTE] Oh wow I didn't know tear gas is made to stimulate trigger fingers and makes people fire blindly in various directions around them, teach me more.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;36963443]I bet you believe in the concept of shooting to disable too.[/QUOTE] Well, getting shot in general is pretty disabling.
[QUOTE=Daemonshadow;36963522]Well, getting shot in general is pretty disabling.[/QUOTE] That's not the point though. When you shoot at someone it is always to kill. Every shot you fire at someone has the potential to kill them. There's a reason it's called lethal force. It just further compounds the stupidity of why anyone would think blindly firing in smoke in a theater full of innocent people would in any way be a good idea.
[QUOTE=The golden;36963127]Then they should be removed from your residence. You clearly do not understand basic firearm safety procedures.[/QUOTE] The point of my post was you can see a guy wearing armor through smoke in a ventilated theater with a high ceiling. You can take it however you want but as a trained shooter I would know exactly what I'm shooting at - so my point is I'd shoot my target and not think of who is around him / me because I wouldn't miss - maybe the shots would be infective due to armor who knows. - Nobody will ever know what difference an armed victim would make in that situation. I own many guns and am very religious of the unwritten rules and actual laws. You don't know me enough to judge my firearm ownership based on one post. I have hundreds of hours in police / swat weapons training.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;36957692][URL]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/batman-shooting-audio-century-16_n_1692926.html[/URL] abc also says it but i cant load it so w/e [editline]27th July 2012[/editline] yeah because a. youll totally have 50 dudes in a theatre with a gun and b. people don't just become fucking blind when they pull a gun, yeah officer accuracy in a firefight goes to shit but you really think for a second that someone is going to pull out their pistol and just start shooting in the general direction of him?[/QUOTE] Yes. Panicked in a crowded theatre. Cops have low accurace over ten meters in a critical situation. Put that into an incredibly critical situation and with civilians, with a target rich environment (where even a miss generally means you have a high chance of hitting someone) [QUOTE=nivek;36963608]The point of my post was you can see a guy wearing armor through smoke in a ventilated theater with a high ceiling. You can take it however you want but as a trained shooter I would know exactly what I'm shooting at - so my point is I'd shoot my target and not think of who is around him / me because I wouldn't miss - maybe the shots would be infective due to armor who knows. - Nobody will ever know what difference an armed victim would make in that situation. I own many guns and am very religious of the unwritten rules and actual laws. You don't know me enough to judge my firearm ownership based on one post. I have hundreds of hours in police / swat weapons training.[/QUOTE] have you ever been in a situation where you had a gun and someone was actually shooting at you? In a constrained area, full of screaming people, full of smoke, sounds of shots and who knows what else? generally speaking unless you were in the military you had no one actually shoot at you. You didn't have to deal with panicking people and who knows what else. Again keep in mind, that police officers are not accurate with pistols above ten meters in dangerous situations. People who are trained for these situations. I would much rather have far better gun control, which limits that guys chances of getting a weapon in the first place, than the chance of a second gung ho idiot show up in that situation or even more of them.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;36963621] have you ever been in a situation where you had a gun and someone was actually shooting at you? In a constrained area, full of screaming people, full of smoke, sounds of shots and who knows what else? generally speaking unless you were in the military you had no one actually shoot at you. You didn't have to deal with panicking people and who knows what else. Again keep in mind, that police officers are not accurate with pistols above ten meters in dangerous situations. People who are trained for these situations.[/QUOTE] Another thing to consider is what would have happened if multiple civilians were armed in that theater. Imagine the confusion of shots being fired in a smoke filled room full of people and not even being able to tell who the actual murderer is.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;36963621]Again keep in mind, that police officers are not accurate with pistols above ten meters in dangerous situations. People who are trained for these situations.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying I don't agree with you - nobody could know how they would react in this situation so I won't further speculate how I would. But this statement is pretty ignorant. - I understand the basis of the statement but It's just not true entirely.
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