[QUOTE=Melnek;45882754]That still doesn't negate the fact that this only hurts France.
And you have no idea how economy and trade works if you think none of the money that will be made in this deal will ever see productive use. These ships don't cost 20 bucks.
All of this is beside the main point anyway. Both France and Russia have already signed the trade agreement. Russia ALREADY payed for one of the ships. It's illegal to back out of this agreement without paying a shitload of compensation.
Also "hostile nation", lol. You guys are literally treating Russia as if it's some Nazi Germany and North Korea hybrid state, just because they illegally annexed some tiny piece of land in the midst of a civil war that technically always belonged to them and happened to be given away on a drunken whim a couple of decades ago.
How long are you guys planning on blowing shit out of proportion? Get some perspective, lol.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck man
'' [URL="http://liveuamap.com/?ll=42.98979173558226;-14.807626953125016&zoom=3"]Get some perspective, lol.[/URL] ''
The contract is from 2011. At the time it was an amazing opportunity for a whole city ( Saint Nazaire ) and it's surroundings, as the shipyards are one of the central economic sector here. Since then the ship has been finished and the Russian crew has been trained. Suddenly rioting begin in Ukraine, Russia take the opportunity of this whole mess to annex Ukraine. They didn't stopped and are continually supporting the assaulting against Ukraine's main land and everyday controlling a bigger portion of Ukraine, shelling convoys, destroying planes ( including a civilian one with almost 300 civillians onboard a month ago ) ...
le white flag frnch flag xd might be funny sometimes, now there's a risk that the ships might be used to kill Ukrainian people or even Europeans if the situation really fuck up. It is the first time that a country make a move of that importance, susceptible to hurt putin. Now it's true that france will suffer from that. But regarding the actual geopolitic situation, it was necessary. Also the contract isn't cancelled. It's just a halt. If Russia stops doing shit, they will get the ships
[QUOTE=Melnek;45882754]That still doesn't negate the fact that this only hurts France.
And you have no idea how economy and trade works if you think none of the money that will be made in this deal will ever see productive use. These ships don't cost 20 bucks.
All of this is beside the main point anyway. Both France and Russia have already signed the trade agreement. Russia ALREADY payed for one of the ships. It's illegal to back out of this agreement without paying a shitload of compensation.[/QUOTE]
France can take a hit. You're the one taking things out of proportion here.
[QUOTE=Melnek;45882754]Also "hostile nation", lol. You guys are literally treating Russia as if it's some Nazi Germany and North Korea hybrid state, just because they illegally annexed some tiny piece of land in the midst of a civil war that technically always belonged to them and happened to be given away on a drunken whim a couple of decades ago.
How long are you guys planning on blowing shit out of proportion? Get some perspective, lol.[/QUOTE]
They've been caught lying about supplying and training rebels that support ceding Ukraine to Russia, they're occupying a "tiny piece of land" that is highly important. What was the deal with the white trucks and using them to obtain equipment after claiming multiple times they were working with the Red Cross and wanted to help? I'm treating like Russia is Nazi Germany? Russia literally said that Ukraine is ruled by Nazis, are you kidding?
You want to talk about perspective, you're treating a tyrannical behavior of a President still living in the Soviet Union mentality like it's nothing. You're treating Crimea like it's a meaningless piece of land. Historical claims of land doesn't have place these days, that's medieval era mentality.
Blowing shit out of proportion? You're swinging back and forth by treating this as an international crime that needs to be addressed immediately and treating invasion as a normal thing.
Please sir, YOU need some perspective.
[QUOTE=Melnek;45882754]That still doesn't negate the fact that this only hurts France.
And you have no idea how economy and trade works if you think none of the money that will be made in this deal will ever see productive use. These ships don't cost 20 bucks.
All of this is beside the main point anyway. Both France and Russia have already signed the trade agreement. Russia ALREADY payed for one of the ships. It's illegal to back out of this agreement without paying a shitload of compensation.
Also "hostile nation", lol. You guys are literally treating Russia as if it's some Nazi Germany and North Korea hybrid state, just because they illegally annexed some tiny piece of land in the midst of a civil war that technically always belonged to them and happened to be given away on a drunken whim a couple of decades ago.
How long are you guys planning on blowing shit out of proportion? Get some perspective, lol.[/QUOTE]
Russia could also, y'know, just stop supporting the uprising in Eastern Ukraine and that would be the end of it.
Also, I love "yeah they kinda gave away but you know not really lol!". And just because it's tiny (rather big compared to Denmark for example) doesn't mean that it isn't a violation of Ukraine sovereignty.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45882205]Seriously; if France doesn't deliver at least the first ship (which Russia has paid for already) they do have good grounds to sue the French Government.[/QUOTE]
Oh stop being a little bitch.
If russia wants to threaten the EU, then they get fucked. No ships for putin, keep his money.
If the faggot complains, point at crimea and say "There, you already got that you filthy thieving rat"
Oh didn't see it was Melnek we're argueing with.
[QUOTE=Orkel;45882191]The French are probably my favourite europeans. They always seem to have the necessary balls to do things, whether that is mass protesting against bad government decisions, sending military to kick ass in africa, or spit in putin's face.[/QUOTE]
Hey! That's no fair we British write great angry letters! And if you're not careful I'll send you one!
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45882205]Seriously; if France doesn't deliver at least the first ship (which Russia has paid for already) they do have good grounds to sue the French Government.[/QUOTE]
doesn't really matter at this point, if putin keeps stepping it up, we'll be at full world war by december
[QUOTE=Miskav;45882972]Oh stop being a little bitch.
If russia wants to threaten the EU, then they get fucked. No ships for putin, keep his money.
If the faggot complains, point at crimea and say "There, you already got that you filthy thieving rat"[/QUOTE]
That's not really how nations should deal with each other, though. France might be able to defend the argument that Russia is currently doing some bullshit, and therefore they won't get the ships before they their support for the rebels (I don't think Crimea is going to be part of any deal, Russia is going to keep that), but they can't just say "nope".
Not to say I'm an expert in international dealings, but then again, very few people have any credentials on Facepunch.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45882263]If France shows that it's willing to go back on deals after the other side has already kept up their end of the transaction that will hurt their ability to make similar deals with other countries.
Do you think China will risk money doing business with the French if they know it could all be pissed away at a moment's notice for purely political reasons?[/QUOTE]
With the exception of a few countries, most countries, especially those near France, fully support their actions here, so I doubt it would brush up too much dust when it comes to their business relations with other countries.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45883021]That's not really how nations should deal with each other, though. France might be able to defend the argument that Russia is currently doing some bullshit, and therefore they won't get the ships before they their support for the rebels (I don't think Crimea is going to be part of any deal, Russia is going to keep that), but they can't just say "nope".
Not to say I'm an expert in international dealings, but then again, very few people have any credentials on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
really the only one who might be buying french ships and not support their decision today is china and theres not much they could do short of invading their neighbors (which are much more heavily armed) to raise france's wrath
[QUOTE=Sableye;45883011]doesn't really matter at this point, if putin keeps stepping it up, we'll be at full world war by december[/QUOTE]
There's a simple solution: facilitate the peaceful transfer of all disputed territories to Russia.
Seriously; we've dissolved whole countries in the past as an alternative to war, it just requires acceptance that your side won't get a 100% of what it wants.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883131]There's a simple solution: facilitate the peaceful transfer of all disputed territories to Russia.
Seriously; we've dissolved whole countries in the past as an alternative to war, it just requires acceptance that your side won't get a 100% of what it wants.[/QUOTE]
I'm literally lacking words to manage answering this, what the fuck
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883131]There's a simple solution: facilitate the peaceful transfer of all disputed territories to Russia.
Seriously; we've dissolved whole countries in the past as an alternative to war, it just requires acceptance that your side won't get a 100% of what it wants.[/QUOTE]
how about no
russia can abide by the budapest memorandum instead of being cunts, how about that?
[QUOTE=DemonElite;45883182]how about no
russia can abide by the budapest memorandum instead of being cunts, how about that?[/QUOTE]
Unconditional surrender only occurs when a nation experiences catastrophic defeat in a war. In negotiations you have to make some sort of concession. What kind of concessions is the west prepared to make towards Russia?
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883254]Unconditional surrender only occurs when a nation experiences catastrophic defeat in a war. In negotiations you have to make some sort of concession. What kind of concessions is the west prepared to make towards Russia?[/QUOTE]
well considering they broke their own treaties, im not sure that there is any concession the west can do towards russia, maybe giving them crimea but doubt much more, this isn't some 2 way debate, they went into ukraine took their shit and now are demanding ukraine to allow armed squads of russian militants occupy half their country in exchange for "peace"
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883131]There's a simple solution: facilitate the peaceful transfer of all disputed territories to Russia.
Seriously; we've dissolved whole countries in the past as an alternative to war, it just requires acceptance that your side won't get a 100% of what it wants.[/QUOTE]
This must be a troll account, there is simply too much irony contained in this post.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883254]Unconditional surrender only occurs when a nation experiences catastrophic defeat in a war. In negotiations you have to make some sort of concession. What kind of concessions is the west prepared to make towards Russia?[/QUOTE]
You're probably trolling but I'll bite anyways.
Not sure why you're bringing up unconditional surrender, is that what you think the west wants from Russia? If so then you are sadly deluded. As for "concessions" the only concessions Russia will see by halting it's aggression is the removal of sanctions that are probably going to cause severe economic damage in the future.
You guys should know better, watch this pointless documentary by Oliver Stone and wake up!
[QUOTE=Sableye;45883273]well considering they broke their own treaties, im not sure that there is any concession the west can do towards russia, maybe giving them crimea but doubt much more, this isn't some 2 way debate, they went into ukraine took their shit and now are demanding ukraine to allow armed squads of russian militants occupy half their country in exchange for "peace"[/QUOTE]
The territories in question hardly comprise "half their country".
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45882948]
You want to talk about perspective, you're treating a tyrannical behavior of a President still living in the Soviet Union mentality like it's nothing. You're treating Crimea like it's a meaningless piece of land. Historical claims of land doesn't have place these days, that's medieval era mentality.
Blowing shit out of proportion? You're swinging back and forth by treating this as an international crime that needs to be addressed immediately and treating invasion as a normal thing.
Please sir, YOU need some perspective.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, big bad "Czar Putin", the only actually sane leader that ever ran for Russian presidency in the last 20 years that has legitimately high approval ratings from people actually living under his "tyrannical and oppressive" regime that's apparently so bad, people actually like it! Truly he is the most clever dictator to ever come about.
And historical claims of land don't have a place in politics these days? What about Palestine? Or Cyprus? Or Tibet? Do you even know what you're saying right now, lmao?
I'm treating the most peaceful and least bloody invasion of the last ~50 years of global history like it's not really that awful, yeah. I'm so unreasonable. Maybe because this invasion pales in comparison to other conflicts where tens of thousands were killed, which I wont name obviously because that really upsets people from a certain nationality and all sorts of deflective insults and "but"s will start flying.
The people currently fighting in Ukraine aren't Russian soldiers, they're Russian nationals/citizens/sympathizers etc that are backed and funded by Russia, this is a given. Until they start annexing territory waving the Russian flag, I'm going to treat them as militant separatists. But for now, when has proxy warfare been illegal or morally wrong at any point in time during history? Literally everyone did it and still does it, all supporting the lesser evil in their eyes and that lesser evil is several degrees worse than these Russian separatists.
This is the definition of blowing shit out of proportion, because those places where these interventions and sanctions are truly needed, remain in a constant state of warfare, while petty shit like this still makes it to the frontpage news with people treating it like it's literally the rise of the RusReich, drawing comparisons to Hitler (by Cameron) and drumming up fear as if Russia has a secret plan to annex every post-Soviet state in its vicinity.
But by all means, keep shitposting about Putin and Russia if that makes you feel better. Just dont pretend like you know what you're actually talking about.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45883021]That's not really how nations should deal with each other, though. France might be able to defend the argument that Russia is currently doing some bullshit, and therefore they won't get the ships before they their support for the rebels (I don't think Crimea is going to be part of any deal, Russia is going to keep that), but they can't just say "nope".
Not to say I'm an expert in international dealings, but then again, very few people have any credentials on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
Just like Russia can't just claim Crimea???
Oh boy, better not piss off russia here, lest uncle putin throw a shitfit.
[editline]3rd September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883131]There's a simple solution: facilitate the peaceful transfer of all disputed territories to Russia.
Seriously; we've dissolved whole countries in the past as an alternative to war, it just requires acceptance that your side won't get a 100% of what it wants.[/QUOTE]
You are literally retarded. Go read a book.
[QUOTE=Melnek;45883380]Yeah, big bad "Czar Putin", the only actually sane leader that ever ran for Russian presidency in the last 20 years that has legitimately high approval ratings from people actually living under his "tyrannical and oppressive" regime that's apparently so bad, people actually like it! Truly he is the most clever dictator to ever come about.
And historical claims of land don't have a place in politics these days? What about Palestine? Or Cyprus? Or Tibet? Do you even know what you're saying right now, lmao?
I'm treating the most peaceful and least bloody invasion of the last ~50 years of global history like it's not really that awful, yeah. I'm so unreasonable. Maybe because this invasion pales in comparison to other conflicts where tens of thousands were killed, which I wont name obviously because that really upsets people from a certain nationality and all sorts of deflective insults and "but"s will start flying.
The people currently fighting in Ukraine aren't Russian soldiers, they're Russian nationals/citizens/sympathizers etc that are backed and funded by Russia, this is a given. Until they start annexing territory waving the Russian flag, I'm going to treat them as militant separatists. But for now, when has proxy warfare been illegal or morally wrong at any point in time during history? Literally everyone did it and still does it, all supporting the lesser evil in their eyes and that lesser evil is several degrees worse than these Russian separatists.
This is the definition of blowing shit out of proportion, because those places where these interventions and sanctions are truly needed, remain in a constant state of warfare, while petty shit like this still makes it to the frontpage news with people treating it like it's literally the rise of the RusReich, drawing comparisons to Hitler (by Cameron) and drumming up fear as if Russia has a secret plan to annex every post-Soviet state in its vicinity.
But by all means, keep shitposting about Putin and Russia if that makes you feel better. Just dont pretend like you know what you're actually talking about.[/QUOTE]
Propaganda exists, just because others do something doesn't justify continuing doing it, innocents died it doesn't matter if it was one or many, the higher the number of deaths the worst it is, there's been Russian soldiers captured by Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine territory, they're occupying Crimea have you forgotten this?
You just called this situation "petty" and say I'm shitposting for rebutting your argument.
[QUOTE] Just dont pretend like you know what you're actually talking about.[/QUOTE]
Why doesn't this apply to you when you're doing things so ironically?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45883427]Propaganda exists, just because others do something doesn't justify continuing doing it, innocents died it doesn't matter if it was one or many, the higher the number of deaths the worst it is, there's been Russian soldiers captured by Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine territory, they're occupying Crimea have you forgotten this?
You just called this situation "petty" and say I'm shitposting for rebutting your argument.
Why doesn't this apply to you when you're doing things so ironically?[/QUOTE]
Lol lmao dude! Didn't you even know about those historical land disputes that started over 60 years ago? Because its totally 1950 and not 2014. Lmao
[QUOTE=Miskav;45883415]Just like Russia can't just claim Crimea???
Oh boy, better not piss off russia here, lest uncle putin throw a shitfit.
[editline]3rd September 2014[/editline]
You are literally retarded. Go read a book.[/QUOTE]
Russia hasn't officially said that the Donbas (?) region is part of Russia. Releasing Crimea would be admitting that Russia at any point did something wrong by annexing Crimea.
Sure, I think it's "unfair" that Russia took Crimea, but I don't think there's much to do about it either, at least politically.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45883427]Propaganda exists[/QUOTE]
Propaganda? You do realize that there are countless of both national and international independent organizations operating in Russia that actually show that Putin has made a lot of progress in all his terms? Thanks for confirming once again that the only thing you know about Russia or in general, Eastern Europe is just this recent Ukraine conflict and nothing beyond that.
Because if you actually knew what goes on in Russia, you would know that the Russian population has lost faith in its government several decades ago, and there was a very good reason why many analysts predicted Russia would collapse at the end of the 90's. It wasn't just the economic indicators, it was also socio-economic factors of the post-Soviet Russian society that promoted this belief. Russians literally do not give a shit about propaganda and can easily recognize and trash it a mile away, so the fact that they approve of Putin speaks volumes of his achievements. He's not perfect and everybody knows it, he's just the best there is in Russian politics and has factually proven himself repeatedly. The fact that other people hold him to the same standards of other progressive Western leaders is laughable because that's just blind arguing.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45883427]just because others do something doesn't justify continuing doing it, innocents died it doesn't matter if it was one or many, the higher the number of deaths the worst it is[/QUOTE]
Oh boy, just look at all these wonderfully impossible moral standards you've got going there. [QUOTE=Gwoodman;45883427]there's been Russian soldiers captured by Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine territory, they're occupying Crimea have you forgotten this?[/QUOTE]
They are occupying Crimea, they're not actively engaged in other parts of the country. Because if they actually were, Kiev would be de-facto Russian territory by now probably, lol. The people currently fighting are separatists.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883352]The territories in question hardly comprise "half their country".[/QUOTE]
No but Crimea and Eastern Ukraine contain a significant part of their heavy industry. Take those away, and the economy suffers dearly. This is exactly what Russia is trying to do, they want Ukraine to become a failed state by stripping them of their industry. All because their friend was ousted from the Government and the new Government told Putin they weren't going to bend over for him anymore.
[QUOTE=Melnek;45883700]Propaganda? You do realize that there are countless of both national and international independent organizations operating in Russia that actually show that Putin has made a lot of progress in all his terms? Thanks for confirming once again that the only thing you know about Russia or in general, Eastern Europe is just this recent Ukraine conflict and nothing beyond that.
Because if you actually knew what goes on in Russia, you would know that the Russian population has lost faith in its government several decades ago, and there was a very good reason why many analysts predicted Russia would collapse at the end of the 90's. It wasn't just the economic indicators, it was also socio-economic factors of the post-Soviet Russian society that promoted this belief. Russians literally do not give a shit about propaganda and can easily recognize and trash it a mile away, so the fact that they approve of Putin speaks volumes of his achievements. He's not perfect and everybody knows it, he's just the best there is in Russian politics and has factually proven himself repeatedly. The fact that other people hold him to the same standards of other progressive Western leaders is laughable because that's just blind arguing.
Oh boy, just look at all these wonderfully impossible moral standards you've got going there.
They are occupying Crimea, they're not actively engaged in other parts of the country. Because if they actually were, Kiev would be de-facto Russian territory by now probably, lol. The people currently fighting are separatists.[/QUOTE]
And I'm the one shitposting. Absolutely worthless.
The day will come eventually and we'll all see what happens.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45883587]
Sure, I think it's "unfair" that Russia took Crimea, but I don't think there's much to do about it either, at least politically.[/QUOTE]
Then there's nothing to do about these ships.
Russia isn't going to be the only one getting their way.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45883131]There's a simple solution: facilitate the peaceful transfer of all disputed territories to Russia.
Seriously; we've dissolved whole countries in the past as an alternative to war, it just requires acceptance that your side won't get a 100% of what it wants.[/QUOTE]
So, whenever Russia happens to decide it wants some piece of land, the absolutely best solution is just to roll over and give it whatever it wants so there won't be a war? And then, newly installed Russian rulers can declare "We don't need people group X", and quietly make them disappear in order to retain order (see recent Crimea thread).
You're priceless. No argument can refute this flawless reasoning for never-ending appeasement. You win the thread.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45883736]And I'm the one shitposting. Absolutely worthless.
The day will come eventually and we'll all see what happens.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you are, by tackling complex issues with these overspoken obvious slogans like "death is wrong and bad" and "innocents dying is wrong". Well no shit it's bad and wrong, but you're not going to stop it by throwing around pretty words, but rather by analyzing the situation and not falling for retarded black and white rhetoricals.
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