Danmark delivers, professor at health institure wants to ban smoking for everyone born after 2000. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Jojje;46336474]I disagree with prohibition of anything, but it shouldn't be glorified and perhaps not advertised as rigorously as it is. Let people make their own decisions, no matter how wrong they may seem.[/QUOTE] Nice avatar.

[QUOTE=demoguy08;46337046]Being american, your focus on government is understandable (and I don't mean that as an insult). But when we talk social healthcare in Scandinavia, we usually talk in terms of us, the people, since we collectively pay for our healthcare. So what we have here is a situation in which, since we the people pay the bill, we are arguing that we the people should also have a say in how care is distributed. Since we live in societies where knowledge regarding, say, risks involving smoking is high, we then put higher responsibility on individuals to care for their bodies.[/QUOTE] First off, let me thank you for being non-insulting. Many are. It would be "we the people" that pay for it here too, but it would be controlled by government. You actually bring up the point I've been trying to make all along. When someone other than yourself contributes to paying for your healthcare, they start to feel like they have a say in your health. This means that to them, they are justified in telling you what you should and shouldn't do because they foot the bill. That's why I've never like the idea of bringing socialized medicine to the U.S. It's not about "huuurrrr i haz to pay for lazy ppl", it's that I should be the one to make the decisions in my life and nobody else. It's like your parents saying "well I'm paying for it, so I get to make the decisions".

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46337111]First off, let me thank you for being non-insulting. Many are. It would be "we the people" that pay for it here too, but it would be controlled by government. You actually bring up the point I've been trying to make all along. When someone other than yourself contributes to paying for your healthcare, they start to feel like they have a say in your health. This means that to them, they are justified in telling you what you should and shouldn't do because they foot the bill. That's why I've never like the idea of bringing socialized medicine to the U.S. It's not about "huuurrrr i haz to pay for lazy ppl", it's that I should be the one to make the decisions in my life and nobody else. It's like your parents saying "well I'm paying for it, so I get to make the decisions".[/QUOTE] It also leads to poor people suffering because they can't afford it, which I'd say is infinitely worse than "oh no my cigarettes cost more"

[QUOTE=demoguy08;46337046]Being american, your focus on government is understandable (and I don't mean that as an insult). But when we talk social healthcare in Scandinavia, we usually talk in terms of us, the people, since we collectively pay for our healthcare. So what we have here is a situation in which, since we the people pay the bill, we are arguing that we the people should also have a say in how care is distributed. Since we live in societies where knowledge regarding, say, risks involving smoking is high, we then put higher responsibility on individuals to care for their bodies. That's why when you say "my body, my choice" a dane or swede might raise an eyebrow since we're well aware of who will be paying your bill when your lungs turn to shit.[/QUOTE] Given the UK has arguably the best social healthcare in the world, I still don't agree that we should stop people from smoking. Have them pay fairly large taxes on the product they take, but don't outright ban it. That just stops money going to where it's needed.

There is really no legitimate reason for anyone born after 1990 to start smoking in the first place. You can't claim ignorance or being misled by advertising anymore, it's common knowledge that smoking will make you die early of COPD and/or lung cancer. I have zero respect for young people that start smoking, IMO it's a wonderfully efficient way of telling the entire world how irredeemably stupid you are.

make it so nicotine patches, other products can be legal, but not cigarettes and other harmful products maybe?

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46337193]There is really no legitimate reason for anyone born after 1990 to start smoking in the first place. You can't claim ignorance or being misled by advertising anymore, it's common knowledge that smoking will make you die early of COPD and/or lung cancer. I have zero respect for young people that start smoking, IMO it's a wonderfully efficient way of telling the entire world how irredeemably stupid you are.[/QUOTE] Or, or, or, orr.... There could be a lot of societal pressures on them to start smoking, they could have been born with a nicotine addiction or a couple of other things that you are passing over so you can feel superior because you were able to avoid cigarettes thus far.

[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;46336672]In a socialized healthcare system, I wouldn't want to pay for the expensive lung cancer meds and procedures of someone who made the choice to smoke.[/QUOTE] That's what the high taxes on such products are for. I remember reading a report on the matter some time ago, which concluded that tobacco consumption in Sweden actually benefited the healthcare, due to it being bigger of an income than a cost

[QUOTE=valkery;46337230]Or, or, or, orr.... There could be a lot of societal pressures on them to start smoking, they could have been born with a nicotine addiction or a couple of other things that you are passing over so you can feel superior because you were able to avoid cigarettes thus far.[/QUOTE] What societal pressure? Also is it even possible to be born with a nicotine addiction?

[QUOTE=kaine123;46337200]make it so nicotine patches, other products can be legal, but not cigarettes and other harmful products maybe?[/QUOTE] Nicotine is harmful itself, much like alcohol, doesn't matter if it's beer, wine or vodka you're drinking, the damage caused by the alcohol will be the same [editline]26th October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=buro;46337302]What societal pressure?[/QUOTE] He's referring to young people who start to smoke to fit in/seem "cool", I suppose

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46336865]So you're saying that your body is no longer your body once you implement socialized medicine? You're saying that my body now belongs to the government and they get to make the choices for me because they pay for my healthcare? How could anyone be against that?!?!?!?!?[/QUOTE] No. I'm not saying your body belongs to the government. In fact, how did you even draw that conclusion from what I said?

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46337193]There is really no legitimate reason for anyone born after 1990 to start smoking in the first place. You can't claim ignorance or being misled by advertising anymore, it's common knowledge that smoking will make you die early of COPD and/or lung cancer. I have zero respect for young people that start smoking, IMO it's a wonderfully efficient way of telling the entire world how irredeemably stupid you are.[/QUOTE] Here's the thing that no one ever tells you about smoking: [b]Smoking is the best thing in the whole world[/b] No lies. It is the BEST thing. It creates a problem and it solves it. It is like winning the lottery fifteen times a day. I knew about heroin. I knew about cocaine. I knew heroin would feel like the best orgasm I've ever had times a thousand. I knew cocaine would make me feel sexier than god but also like, if I got in a fight with god, I would win. I knew X would make every weekend better so long as I had it. I stayed FAR FAR away from that shit. Good things are good until you don't have them and then life sucks beyond the telling of it. I had a handle on that. The only thing people told me about cigarettes was how much they sucked. Kissing a smoker was like licking an ashtray. They'll rob you blind. You'll die early. You'll smell bad. You'll talk through a hole in your throat. I watched them slowly march my father closer to death. Don't smoke.....easy enough. Here's the problem: if cigarettes are so nasty and terrible you have nothing to worry about. Have one. Have another. You'd never be stupid enough to fall into that trap, right? You can be that magic unicorn that can just have one socially with your friends, right? After all, people who get hooked get hooked before they turn 18 and you're nineteen so you're past the cutoff? Plus you're so smart! You'd never do something as dumb as getting addicted to the dumbest, most loserish drug on the market, right? It's never going to be you. Because smoking seems so innocuous. You know that 1/3 people who try heroin are addicted the first time out, but how can smoking, something so stupid, be so dangerous? It's just one cigarette....and the first time that's true! The first time you don't like it and it was as awful as you were expecting and you're completely disarmed for what's coming for you. Then it's a long weekend of drinking in college and your friends smoke and they keep going outside to do so and you get curious again or you want to be "in" and the first one did NOTHING do you have the second. Then the eighth. And then it's only on the weekends. And then it's only while you drink. And then you "cut back" and only smoke when your friends have them (and they ALWAYS have them). You kind of know, in the back of your head, that you want them but you'd have to be stupid (remember?) to fall in that pit. You're crazy smart and good at life and you know all the facts and you'd never be that kid. Here's where it gets serious: something terrible happens. You get broken up with, your dog gets hit by a car, you fail a class, something goes to hell in a hand basket. So you reward yourself with this self-destructive thing. Just for now. Just because this shitty thing has befallen you. So you go and buy some and you feel dirty doing it but feeling dirty is part and parcel with the shitty thing that happened. And you feel like an adult. And you feel like you're coping even though you're doing anything but. Cigarettes are the best part of your day. The feeling of wanting one and then getting one is straight up euphoria. In a world of turmoil and despair, they become your favorite life raft. They make everything better, they make everything that sucks immediately suck less. And that's why they are IMPOSSIBLE to quit. You know you're sinking, and you will do nothing. You'll suddenly come to the realization that you've become a smoker (how the fuck did that happen?) but you won't care. Because the best part of your day is this shitty, expensive, debilitating thing. It's like having a crush on someone who doesn't love you back or having a really arrogant best friend. You love them all the more for how much the situation sucks. At some point you realize you have to quit but you can't. Shitty things keep happening. Your job sucks, your relationship sucks, your classes suck. Finals are coming, your taxes are due, your friend is imploding in front of your face. Any stress, any little thing, becomes unbearable and you need that solution/problem in one to make it seem surmountable. You'll feel like your whole life is caving in and then you have a smoke and you're fine again. For twenty minutes. And twenty minutes is really all you need...for now. Until that time passes and you need it again. And in the back of your head you are RANTING at yourself about how dumb this is and how much you hate yourself for being this person but the pleasure, the relief, drowns it out. You don't get it. You can't. If you never went down the rabbit hole, it won't make sense to you. If you have gone down the rabbit hole, it won't really make sense either. But you will get why you do it to a certain extent. We all made the decision to never smoke. Some of us just fucked it up without meaning to. It was not all at once or with intention. It just happens. All the health facts and scary stories in the world won't change it. The thing that will change it is arming people with the foreknowledge that smoking is the best thing ever. That's what would have saved me. I've quit for two years and that's great, but I'm still not over it. It's still a thing for me. If you don't get it, be GLAD not arrogant. It could have easily been you. This post isn't mine, it can be found [url=http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1l39f3/anybody_who_has_taken_up_smoking_tobacco_since/cbvf2wq]here.[/url]

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46337193]There is really no legitimate reason for anyone born after 1990 to start smoking in the first place. You can't claim ignorance or being misled by advertising anymore, it's common knowledge that smoking will make you die early of COPD and/or lung cancer. I have zero respect for young people that start smoking, IMO it's a wonderfully efficient way of telling the entire world how irredeemably stupid you are.[/QUOTE] My brother started smoking a few months ago, and every time I see him lighting a cigarette I tell "So how's that lung cancer working out for you?". Fact of the matter is that he just moved to England, as he's studying at Oxford University, and he's one of the most intelligent people I know. He just likes smoking (he thinks it's relaxing), and that doesn't necessarily make him irredeemably stupid. I hope he's going to kick the habit soon, though.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46336947]Too fucking bad. You're doing something inherently bad for you, that's GOING to cause health issues at a higher rate than non smokers, you SHOULD pay your fair share. The same should be said with booze too. Cant afford it? Too bad, guess it's time to quit.[/QUOTE] Yes, most definitely this. But at the same time if you are so adamant in making smokers pay for the consequences of their choice the system should be transparent in order to make sure all the additional taxation on smokes and booze go to treatment of illnesses caused by them, or for providing insurance coverage for such diseases, not for anything else.

Instead of spending money on trying to stop something you cannot, it'd be infinitely better to use it for helping those who want to quit or are in need of assistance in quitting

I'm fucking tired of the streets being full of smoked cigs, and people smelling like they haven't had a shower in two weeks. Fuck smokers and smoking, just ban that shit already, it's unsanitary as hell.

maybe i just enjoy the taste of a cigarette. has that crossed your mind, you fucking pro-censorists. Maybe people [I]like it.[/I] but no, they can only be careless and dumb :downs:

[QUOTE=Tmaxx;46337505]maybe i just enjoy the taste of a cigarette. has that crossed your mind, you fucking pro-censorists. Maybe people [I]like it.[/I] but no, they can only be careless and dumb :downs:[/QUOTE] I don't see how someone liking it makes it any less dumb tbh, it's still a really short sighted decision

[QUOTE=buro;46337302]What societal pressure? Also is it even possible to be born with a nicotine addiction?[/QUOTE] Societal pressure like: all friends are doing it, therefore, do it to be cool. Grow up in house with smokers, smoke because it seems natural. Also, there are various articles online about nicotine addiction at birth. While it may not be present at birth, there is an increased risk of nicotine addiction later in life as a result of a smoker mother. [url]http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2002-03/02-143.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Tmaxx;46337505]maybe i just enjoy the taste of a cigarette. has that crossed your mind, you fucking pro-censorists. Maybe people [I]like it.[/I] but no, they can only be careless and dumb :downs:[/QUOTE] How can you like something like smoking? If anything you are dumb for degenerating your own health for something as shitty as a cigarette.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46337460]My brother started smoking a few months ago, and every time I see him lighting a cigarette I tell "So how's that lung cancer working out for you?". Fact of the matter is that he just moved to England, as he's studying at Oxford University, and he's one of the most intelligent people I know. He just likes smoking (he thinks it's relaxing), and that doesn't necessarily make him irredeemably stupid. I hope he's going to kick the habit soon, though.[/QUOTE] Just a tip from a smoker: Saying things like "How's that lung cancer working for you" is not helpful in any way. The only thing you're doing is annoying them and building resentment towards you. Smokers hear that so much, that after about the 10th time, you just start to resent anyone who says anything like that. You're not convincing them to quit. In fact, I found myself so annoyed that I would light up another one right after just out of spite. All it does is send them farther away from quitting. I've tried to quit many times. What I've learned is that no matter what "logical reason" you can come up with to quit, you won't quit unless you really want to quit.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46337571]Just a tip from a smoker: Saying things like "How's that lung cancer working for you" is not helpful in any way. The only thing you're doing is annoying them and building resentment towards you. Smokers hear that so much, that after about the 10th time, you just start to resent anyone who says anything like that. You're not convincing them to quit. In fact, I found myself so annoyed that I would light up another one right after just out of spite. All it does is send them farther away from quitting. I've tried to quit many times. What I've learned is that no matter what "logical reason" you can come up with to quit, you won't quit unless you really want to quit.[/QUOTE] My brother is aware of the fact that I wouldn't push him to do anything, and honestly I know a lot more about the relationship with my brother than you do. It's not that I don't appreciate your tip, but that's really not the case. He knows I'm just messing with him (I'm not staring him in the eye dead serious while saying those words, mind you), and as I said I respect that the fact that he smokes. It's his own decision, not mine.

Lets outlaw alcohol because it is partly responsible for a great deal of death. Lets outlaw marijuana because it can cause lung cancer. Lets outlaw heroin because people will become self-destructive with it. Lets outlaw caffeine because it causes people to become obese and depressed and become a burden to healthcare. We have done these types of things before, and are doing them now, and you know where it gets us? Death. Lots and lots of fucking death. People are being tortured and killed in South and Central America. The Middle East is a hotbed for opium and cocaine. With how addictive caffeine is, we have entire jungles being destroyed to make way for kola nut farming. I'll be honest here, I agree with regulating drugs, but if someone wants to fuck themselves up, so be it. Outlaw methods that can cause second hand usage, and go about researching, and introducing methods which allow people to use drugs and get the effects of them, without putting others at risk for things like cancer. Simply outlawing the product or forcing the creation of a blackmarket is stupid and braindead at best. All this is going to accomplish is creating another worthless expenditure for a group of political whackoffs to cry about, and make another stereotypical enemy to DA CHILDRUN which will most likely be legalized within a century and have the cycle go into force repeat. [editline]26th October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=NiandraLades;46337494]Instead of spending money on trying to stop something you cannot, it'd be infinitely better to use it for helping those who want to quit or are in need of assistance in quitting[/QUOTE] Or spending money on creating new inventions which allow people to enjoy drugs without harming others.

[QUOTE=Jojje;46336474]I disagree with prohibition of anything, but it shouldn't be glorified and perhaps not advertised as rigorously as it is. Let people make their own decisions, no matter how wrong they may seem.[/QUOTE] Even when second-hand smoke harms others that don't smoke?

[QUOTE=freaka;46337557]How can you like something like smoking?[/QUOTE] Due to this: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Nicotine.svg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/SAVWRpC.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46337085] That's why you have a high enough tax on cigarettes/smokables to cover the cost of their healthcare. That way you're not paying for them any more than you'd be paying for a non smoker.[/QUOTE] Well that is a fair point, but I can tell you straight off the bat that the culmulative tobacco tax a smoker will generate during a lifetime is nowhere near enough to cover the cost of treating, say, lung cancer.

[QUOTE=freaka;46337557]How can you like something like smoking? If anything you are dumb for degenerating your own health for something as shitty as a cigarette.[/QUOTE] i don't smoke anymore i actually quit, but in a circumstance like what my brother in law pulled yesterday with his know it all mentality mixed with a spoiled rotten and super self centered and an immature view on things like for example he thinks that within just 4 months he will be as skilled as a programmer that has been doing it for 10 years straight. It's a dumb mentality and it pisses me the fuck off. had i had a smoke things would of went different i wouldn't have blown up and almost fractured his skull i would of just been passive aggressive. So in a situation like that, yes i would most certainly take degenerating my own health for the moment than to get violent and potentially send him to the hospital.

Drinking milk can have adverse effects on your health aswell. Imo you shouldn't ban cigars, but instead make them look bad, presenting scienficially proven research coupled with some witty marketing. People smoke them as a social habit, for the percieved prestige/rank/ w.e. they think smoking bestows them. So it won't be easy for them to let go. However, the less cool smoking becomes, the less smokers will there be. If smoking was as shamefuly percieved as walking naked or w/e, only a hardcore cabal would still not give up smoking.

I'm going to go full on lefty for the first time ever here, but the whole damn purpose of cigarettes is profit. Cigarettes do not fill any need or want by society EXCEPT for the need they create for themselves through addiction. Their used to be the want of wanting to be the cool kid, but not only is that a stupid want but no one thinks you're cool if you smoke cigs these days. I like the whole argument of 'hurr if you ban cigarettes you'll create a black market!' except this article isn't about banning cigarettes. It's about letting the people who currently smoke and kill themselves that way to continue killing themselves, while minimising the number of people born after 2000 who will take up the habit.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46337085]Oh no, I fully believe in people taking the consequences of their action. You're completely and totally free to smoke, there are no laws that stop you from smoking, but since you're electing to do something inherently bad for you, you're going to pay an additional fee ontop of the cost of cigarettes. If it's too much then too bad, maybe you should have a vice that's cheaper[/QUOTE] That's a manufactured consequence. The real consequence would be to pay for any health bills that you incur because of your choices. The issue with creating consequences is that many people will smoke and have no real health problems because of it, and yet they still have the consequence that you've created.