• Biggest Tube strike in 10 years next week
    224 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Reagy;48114683]That's pretty decent...[/QUOTE] I know right? I work 2 jobs, 7 days a week, 60 hours a week and only made 29k last year here on the east coast in USA. I'm always amazed at the whiney people that sit on their ass and want more without putting in more effort. I study nursing on the side to get ready for university plus work my 2 jobs. Study while you work if you can but don't bitch if you're just sitting around picking your nose.
"wah they're making me work nights". IF you don't like it, you can always quit, stop making other people's lives difficult. Your job is to get people places and you get paid a MORE than satisfactory salary.
[QUOTE=apierce1289;48152471]I know right? I work 2 jobs, 7 days a week, 60 hours a week and only made 29k last year here on the east coast in USA. I'm always amazed at the whiney people that sit on their ass and want more without putting in more effort. I study nursing on the side to get ready for university plus work my 2 jobs. Study while you work if you can but don't bitch if you're just sitting around picking your nose.[/QUOTE] So what? Why do people who make more money with less work have to be brought DOWN in pay, just because you have a shittier situation? If anything you should be "whining" more
[QUOTE=Trumple;48126525]I've just graduated with a First after a 4 year Masters course in Engineering at the top Uni for my degree and I'll be starting on a few thousand less at a software company. I don't feel that I'm entitled to more, because I was very fortunate with opportunities that lead to me getting a good education. Yes, I worked exceedingly hard for those 4 years to get a good result, but I feel lucky to be doing something I enjoy at the end of it. However I do feel that 30k for an unskilled job is exceedingly good and that the workers should feel lucky to have such an opportunity. £52k for a tube driver, however, is insane to me. That's ~$80k for Americans. Though, I did study Electronics Engineering so maybe one day I'll work for a firm that ends up automating such jobs. And train driving is most certainly "automatable". :v:[/QUOTE] If it's any consolation, similar wages are being provided for public transit tube workers too(I work in the San Francisco bay area). Though given what I understand, it's a pretty stressful job for the actual people on the ground, but the managerial roles take home over $150k /£97k. Pretty insane.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48124429]1. That's just how the free market works. Jobs aren't a charity handed out to people who want one. If the industry you work in just so happens to go bust, or if it turns out that your job can be done by someone else for a lower price, or even be automated, then tough luck. Find another job.[/QUOTE] It's a two way street, bud. Labor isn't a charity either. The vast majority of people don't do their jobs out of the kindness of their hearts or for the satisfaction of a job well done, they do it to get paid. Why are the people who run things the only ones that are allowed to act out of self-interest? Why is it that trying to pull in a bigger salary or have more desirable working conditions is only lazy, selfish and entitled if you don't own a business? If people have the opportunity to unionize to improve their quality of life, why shouldn't they, other than that it offends your sensibilities? [QUOTE]2. Yes, yes I would. And if the new company screws you over, or fires you, then go find another job. If you want to stop worrying about where to find a job, then obtain some qualifications for skills that the economy needs. Go to university and get a degree, or enter a trade that provides a service to society that is irreplaceable. There is always something to do.[/QUOTE] So you don't see how it's even a little unreasonable to expect people to just up and quit their jobs every time their employer takes action that they don't agree with? "just [i]become[/i] more educated and qualified and just go [i]get[/i] a better job!!!!" is not a solution. It isn't practical for people to look for a new job every time they aren't satisfied with their current working conditions, and people don't always have the opportunity even if they wanted to. That doesn't mean that they should have to just put up with it because it would be more convenient for their employers, especially when they have the means to do something about it.
[QUOTE=AK'z;48155203]"wah they're making me work nights". IF you don't like it, you can always quit, stop making other people's lives difficult. Your job is to get people places and you get paid a MORE than satisfactory salary.[/QUOTE] Indeed, i don't get this. Many, many jobs require you to work nights yet they pay substantially less. I mean a nurse working a night shift gets less than a tube worker, who gets paid more because they have to deal with dead people probably once a year (and even then they get several months paid leave after these events) while nurses will see this shit on a daily basis, work longer hours, do incredibly much more important work all the while.
[QUOTE=Ishwoo;48157728]Indeed, i don't get this. Many, many jobs require you to work nights yet they pay substantially less. I mean a nurse working a night shift gets less than a tube worker, who gets paid more because they have to deal with dead people probably once a year (and even then they get several months paid leave after these events) while nurses will see this shit on a daily basis, work longer hours, do incredibly much more important work all the while.[/QUOTE] so all in all you're saying nurses should be paid more than they are right now? I agree whole-fully. What is up with you people and your shitty mentality of trying to bring people that have better work conditions than you down? Shouldn't you organise and demand better conditions for yourself?
[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/09/tube-strike-james-obrien-rant-support_n_7759890.html[/url] listen to the audio clip in this article. Also we had a great day and support was pretty good, a lot of people who had been inconvenienced came up to us and supported us, with bus drivers beeping their horns as they passed, taxi drivers giving thumbs up and it was generally a good day. Also if all 20,000 of us who are unhappy just quit then good luck getting a tube to work for the foreseeable future! [IMG]https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11705124_572917846181049_7327590353556526476_n.jpg?oh=66be517213705c096ac37fd6f1725efa&oe=5616DAC0[/IMG] I'm the one in the maroon jumper
The thread died now we can no longer all rate you dumb
that's a strange feature i'd not heard of Ah just read the thread in GD
[QUOTE=Bengley;48158698]Also if all 20,000 of us who are unhappy just quit then good luck getting a tube to work for the foreseeable future![/QUOTE] If all 20,000 of you who are unhappy just quit then good luck finding another 30-50k with no qualification requirement, eh? They probably wouldn't have to look far for replacements with that kind of offering on the table in all honesty
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;48157640]It's a two way street, bud. Labor isn't a charity either. The vast majority of people don't do their jobs out of the kindness of their hearts or for the satisfaction of a job well done, they do it to get paid. Why are the people who run things the only ones that are allowed to act out of self-interest? Why is it that trying to pull in a bigger salary or have more desirable working conditions is only lazy, selfish and entitled if you don't own a business? If people have the opportunity to unionize to improve their quality of life, why shouldn't they, other than that it offends your sensibilities? So you don't see how it's even a little unreasonable to expect people to just up and quit their jobs every time their employer takes action that they don't agree with? "just [i]become[/i] more educated and qualified and just go [i]get[/i] a better job!!!!" is not a solution. It isn't practical for people to look for a new job every time they aren't satisfied with their current working conditions, and people don't always have the opportunity even if they wanted to. That doesn't mean that they should have to just put up with it because it would be more convenient for their employers, especially when they have the means to do something about it.[/QUOTE] Because their silly strike has cost the economy as a whole significant harm due to lost productivity, and the union will continue to lower economic efficiency by its very existence. Labour unions lead to inefficiencies in the labour market due to their undue power in dictating labour prices. Imagine if all fast food companies came together one day and decided to fix the price of a hamburger at $10. We would all lose our shit, and rightly so. Why should it be any different when workers come together and fix labour prices? Unionised workers benefit those in the union at the expense of those outside it. The Tube workers' union in particular has repeatedly lobbied and campaigned against automation that would increase the efficiency of the London Underground while lowering costs for commuters. Why? Because this would lead to lots of workers becoming unemployed. If that isn't selfish then I don't know what is. Here's the thing: jobs are not an entitlement. If you suddenly find yourself out of employment because you lack the skills that the economy currently needs, and you are unable to acquire new skills that will allow you to find employment, then sucks to be you, but you're going to be jobless.
I'm just glad it's all getting automated. The unions are far too strong, and are holding TFL hostage at this point. And it's making everyone's travel more expensive - all for a job that requires the entirety of TWO GCSE's to do on the same payscale as one you could expect from a degree
Strike together, defend your interests. There is no entitlement in claiming more of the share your productivity affords. There is no divide between the working class and the public, this is a liberal delusion, part of a divide and conquer strategy that diffuses blame and pits labor against itself. Liberals are just butthurt solidarity gets in the way of the downward pressure on wages atomization and job competition brings, but it's never class warfare when they enforce such things (with the state ironically). Britain has a long standing labor tradition that must not perish in the neoliberal era.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;48164857]I'm just glad it's all getting automated. The unions are far too strong, and are holding TFL hostage at this point. And it's making everyone's travel more expensive - all for a job that requires the entirety of TWO GCSE's to do on the same payscale as one you could expect from a degree[/QUOTE] I can't stand the union's bullshit arguments about safety. Plenty of other cities do perfectly well with completely driverless trains, with less accidents even. Why can't London do the same?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48157270]So what? Why do people who make more money with less work have to be brought DOWN in pay, just because you have a shittier situation? If anything you should be "whining" more[/QUOTE] Why would I bitch I'm lucky to have a job in this economy and I make do with what I have I don't complain about my situation. You should deal with the cards you're dealt and make the best of it not bitch about it because you could be without a job. Do what it takes to make more money and go the extra mile people aren't going to pay for you to do less or pay you more to do the same thing that you already do. Unless you go to school and gain skills that normal people do not have then you are worth more.
I wonder what will happen to the world underclass/service class once machines take over their work. Public education is universally still too poor to turn everyone into a skilled worker who is ready for positions that computers aren't able to do.
I really hope they don't give in to you dickbags. I know you're whining about unsociable hours and no social life but fuck me, there are post graduates who don't make what you earn. You want real unsociable hours? Go stack shelves night shift for tescos or Sainsburys earning just above minimum wage. Hell, I just finished my degree. In January I start my training at Sandhurst to become an Officer in the Army. My salary for the next two years will be only £30,000. That's low for a post graduate but I accept that pay and I accept that's the life I'll have. You guys don't think £49,000 is enough for you to to drive trains? What an absolute joke. I really hope your union gets torn to shit by either the public or the government
[QUOTE=apierce1289;48169209]Why would I bitch I'm lucky to have a job in this economy and I make do with what I have I don't complain about my situation. You should deal with the cards you're dealt and make the best of it not bitch about it because you could be without a job. Do what it takes to make more money and go the extra mile people aren't going to pay for you to do less or pay you more to do the same thing that you already do. Unless you go to school and gain skills that normal people do not have then you are worth more.[/QUOTE] Actually people will pay you more, you've just got to fight for it. There is absolutely no reason to passively take what you've been dealt when you could unite and struggle for something better. Why should we all be content with just getting fucked over continuously just because 'oh well it could be worse!'? Fuck that, we should all fight for what we deserve and not settle until we do get it. It's absurd to say people should just deal with it and stop whining for things like a union and decent wages & benefits. You and everybody else has got no reason to settle for less they you're worth.
[QUOTE=Conscript;48164923]Strike together, defend your interests. There is no entitlement in claiming more of the share your productivity affords. There is no divide between the working class and the public, this is a liberal delusion, part of a divide and conquer strategy that diffuses blame and pits labor against itself. Liberals are just butthurt solidarity gets in the way of the downward pressure on wages atomization and job competition brings, but it's never class warfare when they enforce such things (with the state ironically).[/quote] What about automation? Automation of much of the London Underground is very feasible now. [quote]Britain has a long standing labor tradition that must not perish in the neoliberal era.[/QUOTE] You're speaking about something that's already dead. All that's left is a few unions, a bunch of tankies, aristocrats rejected from the tory party, and some bitter college lecturers. [editline]11th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Octavius;48169561]Actually people will pay you more, you've just got to fight for it. There is absolutely no reason to passively take what you've been dealt when you could unite and struggle for something better. Why should we all be content with just getting fucked over continuously just because 'oh well it could be worse!'? Fuck that, we should all fight for what we deserve and not settle until we do get it. It's absurd to say people should just deal with it and stop whining for things like a union and decent wages & benefits. You and everybody else has got no reason to settle for less they you're worth.[/QUOTE] Sometimes they get too strong though, especially in the case of 1960s/1970s Britain where the Labour Cartels held a rather tight grip on industry.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48169567]Sometimes they get too strong though, especially in the case of 1960s/1970s Britain where the Labour Cartels held a rather tight grip on industry.[/QUOTE] Yeah, unions can get strong, though that is not necessarily a bad thing, at least go me. I can see why some people may not like it but, oh well.
[QUOTE=Octavius;48169746]Yeah, unions can get strong, though that is not necessarily a bad thing, at least go me. I can see why some people may not like it but, oh well.[/QUOTE] When unions get too aggressive in wage demands it contributes to high inflation rates which negates the benefit gained through wage increases while hurting non-union workers through reduced buying power. In addition, Britain at the end of the 1970s had an outdated and unsustainable industrial sector that was a relic of the 19th century. British industry was already starting to suffer before the world wars came along and kept it on life support for another half century.
[QUOTE=Octavius;48169746]Yeah, unions can get strong, though that is not necessarily a bad thing, at least go me. I can see why some people may not like it but, oh well.[/QUOTE] It's not just a matter of people "not [liking] it". Unions lead to inefficient allocation of resources, and the RMT is a prime example of this. Instead of spending more on upgrading infrastructure and improving the standard of service through the addition of more trains and other good stuff, the London Underground has been consistently crippled by the RMT whinging for more pay and lesser hours, thus forcing the Underground to hire more workers than necessary, and pay them more than they should. All this has lead to the London Underground costing way too much and delivering subpar service. Driverless trains should have been implemented years ago, yet the RMT insists that they are unsafe, despite the fact that dozens of cities have been using them for years without incident. It's an absolute joke.
[QUOTE=some_hobo;48169519]I really hope they don't give in to you dickbags. I know you're whining about unsociable hours and no social life but fuck me, there are post graduates who don't make what you earn. You want real unsociable hours? Go stack shelves night shift for tescos or Sainsburys earning just above minimum wage. Hell, I just finished my degree. In January I start my training at Sandhurst to become an Officer in the Army. My salary for the next two years will be only £30,000. That's low for a post graduate but I accept that pay and I accept that's the life I'll have. You guys don't think £49,000 is enough for you to to drive trains? What an absolute joke. I really hope your union gets torn to shit by either the public or the government[/QUOTE] Officers start on lower than that mate. Hell, I fix aircraft in the Army for £32k a year whilst if I was a civvy I would be on a minimum of £45k, good thing we can't strike eh? And that's for 45 hours a week minimum (63 if we work weekends which is often).
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48164813]Because their silly strike has cost the economy as a whole significant harm due to lost productivity, and the union will continue to lower economic efficiency by its very existence. Labour unions lead to inefficiencies in the labour market due to their undue power in dictating labour prices. Imagine if all fast food companies came together one day and decided to fix the price of a hamburger at $10. We would all lose our shit, and rightly so. Why should it be any different when workers come together and fix labour prices? Unionised workers benefit those in the union at the expense of those outside it. The Tube workers' union in particular has repeatedly lobbied and campaigned against automation that would increase the efficiency of the London Underground while lowering costs for commuters. Why? Because this would lead to lots of workers becoming unemployed. If that isn't selfish then I don't know what is. Here's the thing: jobs are not an entitlement. If you suddenly find yourself out of employment because you lack the skills that the economy currently needs, and you are unable to acquire new skills that will allow you to find employment, then sucks to be you, but you're going to be jobless.[/QUOTE] Automation isn't even what they're striking about though, so I don't entirely see how it's relevant. If you want to talk about the merits and pitfalls of automation in a free market, that's an entirely different subject.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;48176063]Automation isn't even what they're striking about though, so I don't entirely see how it's relevant. If you want to talk about the merits and pitfalls of automation in a free market, that's an entirely different subject.[/QUOTE] They are striking about having to work "unsociable hours" and having no say in this, a problem that would be solved by automating the train system and laying off all of them.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48176119]They are striking about having to work "unsociable hours" and having no say in this, a problem that would be solved by automating the train system and laying off all of them.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, I'm sure that the obvious solution for these people is to be unemployed. Bravo, what a reasonable response.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;48176428]Ah yes, I'm sure that the obvious solution for these people is to be unemployed. Bravo, what a reasonable response.[/QUOTE] It's the solution that provides maximum utility. Tube fares become cheaper, service is improved, commuters are happier on their commute to work and thus workplace productivity increases.
If I were in charge of the tube I'd just start automating the system, but I'd also make sure that they wouldn't have to work "unsociable hours" and the such by introducing automation gradually. I also probably wouldn't lay off people either, I'd just let attrition reduce staff numbers while freezing recruitment.
[QUOTE=Bengley;48114162]I find it quite insulting being called lazy. Have you tried working in a tunnel for 8 hours in the sweltering heat, with people sneezing all over you, abusing you, constant queries from passengers, all while trying to maintain a safe environment for hundreds, if not thousands of people every minute at all hours of the day and having no social life as a result? EVERYONE should have the right to a strong union which can put pressure on the company for better conditions. And before anyone says we're paid enough already... £30k in London is not a fantastic wage. I net approximately £1600 a month - try paying rent for a flat in London for that much and afford to be able to have an enjoyable life.[/QUOTE] that's quite low for london, which is [I]insane[/I] by the way since it's 2225€, which is ~1600€ more than the minimum wage (and 1100€ more than standard wage) in my country.
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