I wore a "Free Bradley Manning" sticker at the Stewart/Colbert rally back in October. :911:
[QUOTE=Zeke129;26769540]In this case it became necessary to attack you because I won't be getting around your stubborn opinions anytime soon. Your patriotism extends beyond what is considered healthy patriotism and falls somewhere in the realm of blind subservience to your [i]omnipotent country[/i]. You dislike the way the TSA is handling itself, and I acknowledged and praised that in its relevant thread, but when it comes to torture and various other war crimes that your government openly commits, USA can do no wrong with you. But as long as you're not inconvenienced at the airport who gives a shit about journalists gunned down by choppers, civilians killed in drone strikes, and young men being held and tortured without due process. It became necessary to attack you because the vast majority if your views are abhorrent and disgusting and a perfect example of what is wrong with the average American today. I've fucking gone [i]easy[/i] on you because you have a green name but if you want to play it this way, I am much obliged.[/QUOTE]
What should have happened with the journalists? There is no play there that benefits the United States. Which sounds selfish, and it most certainly is, but you can't think of a government as a person. A government is a machine. The machine works only in its own interest and for that of its own citizens. The components of the machine are hired and retained based on their ability to pursue that goal. Letting the information go public only serves to put out bad press. Firing the helicopter pilots and imprisoning them costs millions upon millions of dollars in terms of incarceration, lost value in training, and further costs of training a replacement. No play worked in the interest of the United States, thus the machine elected to pursue the path of least destruction. It wasn't evil, it was basic logic. I don't expect the military to sabotage its own war effort. But at the end of the day it was certainly fucked up.
Originally the civilians killed by the drone strikes were said to have been caused by orders coming from the host country. We lent them gear and it was misused basically. But I believe one of the cables reveal that it was all US action, which is bullshit and the people issuing the orders need to be fired. They do not operate in the best interest of the US and logically should be removed. Drone pilots likely aren't responsible and should remain unblackened by the event.
This guy isn't being tortured. He is in solitary probably because he is a security leak. Due process for the military is different than conventional due process. The US constitution specifically gives congress the power to form the military justice system. This is why you are not permitted a jury trial and the like during military justice. Everything thus far is in line with an article 32 hearing. Usually the military prefers to avoid pursuing military justice, instead offering honorable discharges simply for leaving. However when someone does something so exceptionally damaging, they are forced to follow procedure.
The truth of the matter is that I find our entire presence in the middle east to be ridiculous. Vast numbers of lives lost for a pointless conflict. Terrorism isn't a legitimate threat. Aside from sinking cargo ships in our ports and a handful of other specific attack avenues, there isn't a lot you can do to a nation the size of the United States with terrorism provided you make it clear that no amount of terrorist activity will result in a policy change that affects the people. And stick to that claim, of course.
As it stands this prolonged conflict has hurt us substantially. Bush and whoever else was responsible for misleading congress in order to bring about the Iraqi conflict should be put on trial in a US military court and left to rot in solitary for the rest of their pathetic existence.
My ultimate point here is that we probably have the same ultimate desires, but I'm not going to complain about the stuff which is ultimately inconsequential, not because the people involved (killed) don't matter, but because everyone with any sort of authority on every side of the issue is indifferent to the situation. The conflicts are already shutting down as fast as they can and have cost the US enough money that we won't be sticking our nose in anyone's business for some time (Barring everyone's favorite brothers, the Koreas, getting into a real fight). So really the goal has been achieved. When something shows up which is legitimately illegal or fucked up, I still get angry about it, but not to the point where I let my rage blind me and accept an article which is obviously a fabrication or bends the truth. Journalism is a business. It's in their interesting to produce headlines which draw the most attention. Since there is virtually no penalty for lying, they basically have free reign to make shit up.
As you get older, you absorb more information and are able to step further and further back from the situation. As a young kid I, like most, was certainly very patriotic. We're the good guys, they're the bad guys, and all that silly jazz. As a teenager I stepped back and realized that wasn't the case at all and it became we are unjust assholes! And finally as an adult I was able to step way way back and come to the depressing conclusion that for any action, a governing body only has a few realistic choices. There are no bad guys or good guys, just a bunch of puppets which pursue the only options available to them. There is no justice at that level. No wrong. No right. Governments operate with remarkable predictability.
tl;dr: We're actually on the same side. Sorta.
I'm not going to touch on the back half of your post since it was just your feelings and not something that is my place to argue right now; just putting this disclaimer here so you know I read it.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651]What should have happened with the journalists? There is no play there that benefits the United States. Which sounds selfish, and it most certainly is, but you can't think of a government as a person. A government is a machine. The machine works only in its own interest and for that of its own citizens. The components of the machine are hired and retained based on their ability to pursue that goal. Letting the information go public only serves to put out bad press.[/quote]
Why is bad press against the government a bad thing?
When a machine (as you call it) is malfunctioning you need to warn people who work around it. And if this machine is letting chopper gunners shoot everything up recklessly it most certainly is a malfunction.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651][highlight]Firing the helicopter pilots and imprisoning them costs millions upon millions of dollars in terms of incarceration, lost value in training, and further costs of training a replacement.[/highlight][/quote]
This has been highlighted for a reason. Hold the thought.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651]No play worked in the interest of the United States, thus the machine elected to pursue the path of least destruction. It wasn't evil, it was basic logic. I don't expect the military to sabotage its own war effort. But at the end of the day it was certainly fucked up. [/quote]
Absolutely, it was fucked up. It was negligent. And people need to be held accountable. A government that does not keep its own power in check (not necessary self-sabotage) is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. People own the government. People have a right to know when the government is not living up to their standards and the standards of the rest of the world whom they interact with. And people have the right to make someone pay for that negligence.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651]Originally the civilians killed by the drone strikes were said to have been caused by orders coming from the host country. We lent them gear and it was misused basically. [b]But I believe one of the cables reveal that it was all US action[/b], which is bullshit and the people issuing the orders need to be fired. They do not operate in the best interest of the US and logically should be removed. Drone pilots likely aren't responsible and should remain unblackened by the event.[/quote]
Alright, go back up to the highlighted portion. Why should these people need to be fired but not the chopper gunners? What's the difference?
The bolded part is also important. Manning is responsible for you getting this information, you should care a little bit more about his well-being.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651]This guy isn't being tortured.[/quote]
Hold your shit right here. Psychological torture in the form of isolation [b]most certainly is torture[/b]. Do not downplay this.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651]He is in solitary probably because he is a security leak. Due process for the military is different than conventional due process. The US constitution specifically gives congress the power to form the military justice system. This is why you are not permitted a jury trial and the like during military justice. Everything thus far is in line with an article 32 hearing. Usually the military prefers to avoid pursuing military justice, instead offering honorable discharges simply for leaving. However when someone does something so exceptionally damaging, they are forced to follow procedure.[/quote]
Now that we've established that he is being tortured, we can see that government procedure is allowing torture. We're back to the malfunctioning machine analogy.
In the back half of the post you also mentioned that people like Bush should be tried and imprisoned, I want you to go back up to the red highlighted part and tell me again what the difference is.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26770651]
tl;dr: We're actually on the same side. Sorta.[/QUOTE]
No we aren't. I don't even know what this logical fallacy is called but it's hilarious.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;26771545]I'm not going to touch on the back half of your post since it was just your feelings and not something that is my place to argue right now; just putting this disclaimer here so you know I read it. [/quote]
Fair enough
[quote]Why is bad press against the government a bad thing?
When a machine (as you call it) is malfunctioning you need to warn people who work around it. And if this machine is letting chopper gunners shoot everything up recklessly it most certainly is a malfunction. [/quote]
For what purpose? If memory serves the pilots were reprimanded from the start. They misidentified targets after vehicles in the area were attacked. The reporters were positioned close to a ground unit and had been warned that it was an area of operations and to stay away. It was a shitty situation, but it was a mistake on the part of the flight crew, not a thirst for blood. Gunship pilots are pretty strenuously vetted.
[quote]Absolutely, it was fucked up. It was negligent. And people need to be held accountable. A government that does not keep its own power in check (not necessary self-sabotage) is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. People own the government. People have a right to know when the government is not living up to their standards and the standards of the rest of the world whom they interact with. And people have the right to make someone pay for that negligence.[/quote]
People have a right to know, provided it doesn't put lives at risk unnecessarily. Corruption and a failure to operate properly as a government should certainly be brought to light. It ultimately helps the nation far more than it hurts it. Determining where that line lies is difficult to a degree. The freedom of information act helped, but it doesn't seem to be enforced properly, which is highly problematic. Like the Gunship video should have been turned over when requested by Reuters.
[quote]Alright, go back up to the highlighted portion. Why should these people need to be fired but not the chopper gunners? What's the difference?[/quote]
I agree it is an odd distinction, but one is a strategic decision made by well informed people who willfully decided to engage houses on numerous separate occasions without looking into it further. The other was a single decision made on the ground based on the best information which could be provided without putting the infantry down the street at risk. Willful ignorance (I hope/assume) vs what was probably a mistake brought on by a series of events that resulted in a very bad conclusion.
[quote]The bolded part is also important. Manning is responsible for you getting this information, you should care a little bit more about his well-being.[/quote]
But manning could have released that and, other documents indicating corruption, and been protected by the law. He chose to dump everything. He gave unedited documents to a 3rd party. He wasn't doing it to be altruistic, he was doing it to be a jerk because he got demoted for assaulting another soldier.
[quote]Hold your shit right here. Psychological torture in the form of isolation [b]most certainly is torture[/b]. Do not downplay this. [/quote]
Yeah I'm gonna backpedal on myself here and agree that this is pretty inhumane. I'd originally made the assumption that the article was making it more than it really was. He was, at one time, apparently on suicide watch. But it has also apparently been lifted for some time. That along with a few other things made me question the article initially, but everything else seems to check out. This is way over the top, even for military justice. I can understand the confinement itself until they manage to effectively determine the extent of the damage done and if he might have taken more files than the government is aware of, but there is no reason to deny him sheets or basic entertainment. Give him a TV, books, proper bedding. Let him exercise. More yard time if possible.
[quote]Now that we've established that he is being tortured, we can see that government procedure is allowing torture. We're back to the malfunctioning machine analogy. [/quote]
Aye, someone needs to be fired for this.
[quote]In the back half of the post you also mentioned that people like Bush should be tried and imprisoned, I want you to go back up to the red highlighted part and tell me again what the difference is.[/quote]
Intentionally inflicted suffering that is immeasurable and has cost the lives of thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people vs a mistake made the intention of defending soldiers on the ground from an ambush.
[quote]No we aren't. I don't even know what this logical fallacy is called but it's hilarious.[/QUOTE]
The goals are the same, the details differ, but the goals largely remain the same.
To the people who think Bradley did the right thing:
It's called loyalty. And patriotism. What Bradley did was borderline TREASON and should be punished.
[QUOTE=Layley;26773955]To the people who think Bradley did the right thing:
It's called loyalty. And patriotism. What Bradley did was borderline TREASON and should be punished.[/QUOTE]
What you call patriots in the USA we like to call Nazis in germany... But of couuuurse thats a totally different thing... yeah.
Americans and their hypocritical pride.
[QUOTE=Layley;26773955]To the people who think Bradley did the right thing:
It's called loyalty. And patriotism. What Bradley did was borderline TREASON and should be punished.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.deviantart.com/download/162491044/Hitler_smiling_looking_at_maps_by_samyemma_tobi.jpg[/img]
As you can see, he's very happy. Since you're acting just like how he wanted his people to act.
[editline]18th December 2010[/editline]
:ninja:
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26732781]Nothing, which I have stated a couple times.
Just because certain people on the internet disagree with the law doesn't justify breaking the law.
Someone obviously leaked the documents, so someone obviously broke the law.[/QUOTE]
You're right. Someone did break the law, and it wasn't Manning.
Take a look at the people holding him illegally.
The same people who covered up illegal killings of civilians and reporters.
You have the right event, just the wrong guy.
[QUOTE=Vinze;26774710][img_thumb]http://www.deviantart.com/download/162491044/Hitler_smiling_looking_at_maps_by_samyemma_tobi.jpg[/img_thumb]
As you can see, he's very happy. Since you're acting just like how he wanted his people to act.
[editline]18th December 2010[/editline]
:ninja:[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDCwP2SnI4[/media]
[QUOTE=Layley;26773955]To the people who think Bradley did the right thing:
It's called loyalty. And patriotism. What Bradley did was borderline TREASON and should be punished.[/QUOTE]
Bradley showed bad things the army was doing, including war crimes and was willing to get in major trouble in order to do it. I wish there were more Americans like him. willing to say that your government is wrong and do something about it is the greatest thing a person can do for there country.
[editline]18th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Melnek;26775703][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDCwP2SnI4[/media][/QUOTE]
well you have to admit it was a valid point and not just a "lol you hate jews"
[QUOTE=Zeke129;26769540]In this case it became necessary to attack you because I won't be getting around your stubborn opinions anytime soon. Your patriotism extends beyond what is considered healthy patriotism and falls somewhere in the realm of blind subservience to your [i]omnipotent country[/i]. You dislike the way the TSA is handling itself, and I acknowledged and praised that in its relevant thread, but when it comes to torture and various other war crimes that your government openly commits, USA can do no wrong with you. But as long as you're not inconvenienced at the airport who gives a shit about journalists gunned down by choppers, civilians killed in drone strikes, and young men being held and tortured without due process. It became necessary to attack you because the vast majority if your views are abhorrent and disgusting and a perfect example of what is wrong with the average American today. I've fucking gone [i]easy[/i] on you because you have a green name but if you want to play it this way, I am much obliged.[/QUOTE]
Fucking win.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26772019]For what purpose? If memory serves the pilots were reprimanded from the start. They misidentified targets after vehicles in the area were attacked. The reporters were positioned close to a ground unit and had been warned that it was an area of operations and to stay away. It was a shitty situation, but it was a mistake on the part of the flight crew, not a thirst for blood. Gunship pilots are pretty strenuously vetted.[/quote]
A simple reprimand doesn't sit well with me in this case. What I'd like to see is a mandatory psychological evaluation to attempt to determine the mindset of the gunners at the time. If a trained professional can say that these guys honestly believed their lives were in danger instead of just the apathy towards human life that seems to be the case on the video, I'd be fine with a simple "now don't fuck it up again".
[QUOTE=GunFox;26772019]Willful ignorance (I hope/assume) vs what was probably a mistake brought on by a series of events that resulted in a very bad conclusion.[/quote]
If those truly were the events in both cases, then you're right. But I can only go by what I read/see/hear and there seems to be an undercurrent of negligence in both cases.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26772019]But manning could have released that and, other documents indicating corruption, and been protected by the law. He chose to dump everything. He gave unedited documents to a 3rd party. He wasn't doing it to be altruistic, he was doing it to be a jerk because he got demoted for assaulting another soldier.[/quote]
You can't speak to why he did it, neither can I. Not worth arguing, and not relevant.
[quote]The goals are the same, the details differ, but the goals largely remain the same.[/QUOTE]
I didn't realize we posted on facepunch to achieve a goal, actually.
Anything I didn't quote I likely agreed with and didn't feel like stretching the page with.
[editline]18th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Layley;26773955]To the people who think Bradley did the right thing:
It's called loyalty. And patriotism. What Bradley did was borderline TREASON and should be punished.[/QUOTE]
But "borderline treason" isn't treason
One is and one isn't
that's a huge distinction
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26732045]He's in solitary confinement, he's not being tortured.
As terrible as that is, misleading title.[/QUOTE]
Being in solitary confinement feels like torture.
Don't mess with the USA. :patriot:
Just kidding. That is pretty harsh, He should be treated like another prisoner not a war criminal. Julian Assange, who leads wikileaks, is living in a mansion.
I can't stand torture. It shouldn't be done to anyone.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26732045]He's in solitary confinement, he's not being tortured.
As terrible as that is, misleading title.[/QUOTE]
[quote]barred even from exercising[/quote]
Yeah i'd call that torture
[QUOTE='[sluggo];26790122'] Julian Assange, who leads wikileaks, is living in a mansion.[/QUOTE]
no hes not
Didn't McCain describe solitary as the "most powerful form of mistreatment"?
Kid must be going through hell, especially when his own people are doing it to him.
slap ma bitch up
Good, He is going to be convicted as a traitor and either hanged or shot anyways.
[QUOTE=Melnek;26775703][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDCwP2SnI4[/media][/QUOTE]
Pfft, I'm not worked up. I just act like a jerk here to ventilate my aggressions so that I can be nice to people I actually give a damn about. :downs:
[QUOTE=the dopest;26732098]can you imagine being completely alone for 7 months? it would be torture[/QUOTE]
I am alone :saddowns:
[QUOTE=Shadow Core;26801078]Good, He is going to be convicted as a traitor and either hanged or shot anyways.[/QUOTE]
Im sorry but your a horrible person.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Foo King;26804133]I am alone :saddowns:[/QUOTE]
yea but without internet
[quote]From the beginning of his detention, Manning has been held in intensive solitary confinement. For 23 out of 24 hours every day -- for seven straight months and counting -- he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he's barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he's being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch). For the one hour per day when he is freed from this isolation, he is barred from accessing any news or current events programs. Lt. Villiard protested that the conditions are not "like jail movies where someone gets thrown into the hole," but confirmed that he is in solitary confinement, entirely alone in his cell except for the one hour per day he is taken out.[/quote]
Sounds like fun
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