Ukip leader Nigel Farage provokes anger after agreeing with 'basic principle' of Enoch Powell’s noto - Polidicks

I think the highlight so far was the hand-waving of all instances of European slavery

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;43431879]Nah. Nationalism's alive and well. It's just that tons of people like you have no idea what it is and are completely unawares of how it continues to impact our lives. Which doesn't surprise me; Facepunch has demonstrated plenty of times in the past it has no idea what nationalism is exactly. Civic/liberal nationalism is what drives modernized nations in the western hemisphere today actually, centered around the idea that we should strive to create a free society that values individual rights, tolerance, equality, etc.[/QUOTE] The concept of the nation-state is dying the slow and painful death it deserves.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43431921]I think the highlight so far was the hand-waving of all instances of European slavery[/QUOTE] Muslims tried to conquer Langue d'Oc so the Crusades were totally fine [editline]5th January 2014[/editline] etc. etc.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43430903]If you want to know why people like Nigel Farage are growing in popularity, you and people like you are the reason. Dismissing views and insulting those that hold them does not make them go away, it allows the views to stand without effective opposition. If a debate is held and one sides makes seemingly logical points and the other hubristically brushes them off, ignores any points they make and attempts to shame them into opposition, the former comes across as a "common sense" underdog ignored by the political establishment and the latter comes across as crass and out of touch. UKIP are growing in popularity because they are dismissed rather than combatted. Try as you might you can not shame a group out of power when a secret ballot is in place. If UKIP is not taken seriously and the issues they raise directly addressed by the political establishment they will continue to grow in popularity.[/QUOTE] I fail to see how the views are being dismissed when a huge chunk of the press echo and express the same views, and all three major parties are trying to pander to it as well. Yet right-wing views are still being espoused as the subject of victimisation , even when even the left most major party, Labour, is at best centrist (which is part of the reason the SNP did so well in the last election), and the most read paper (The Sun) and the most read news website (The Mail) are heavily skewed to the right as well. What more could the Conservatives and UKIP want?

TBH ROMANS AND ALEXANDER THE GREAT TRIED TO CONQUER THE WHOLE WORLD SO I FEEL THAT the easts cultural and moral opposition to europe & their historical war against all non-europeans is entirely justified. I AM A EUROPAPHOBE

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;43431879]Nah. Nationalism's alive and well. It's just that tons of people like you have no idea what it is and are completely unawares of how it continues to impact our lives. Which doesn't surprise me; Facepunch has demonstrated plenty of times in the past it has no idea what nationalism is exactly. Civic/liberal nationalism is what drives modernized nations in the western hemisphere today actually, centered around the idea that we should strive to create a free society that values individual rights, tolerance, equality, etc. Ethnic/racial nationalism and ultranationalism, which used to be popular in the west, are for the most part dead. Certainly dated because of the xenophobia, which isn't of course really an appealing political characteristic anymore, but not entirely dead. You have parties and movements that still cling to their conceptual points.[/QUOTE] Wait. You say we don't know the definition of nationalism? WE? Ahahahahahh. Hehehehehehehheeheeheehhhhehehe. HOHOHOHOHO. Haaa. Heh.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43431929]The concept of the nation-state is dying the slow and painful death it deserves.[/QUOTE] Globalization and internationalist politics [i]are[/i] helping to remove more barriers between nations (and people), but the concept of the nation as a sovereign territorial entity with distinctive cultural, linguistic, even ethnic characteristics is not anywhere near death nor in the process of dying. We're a long ways off from that point yet. [QUOTE=archangel125;43432010]Wait. You say we don't know the definition of nationalism? WE? Ahahahahahh. Hehehehehehehheeheeheehhhhehehe. HOHOHOHOHO. Haaa. Heh.[/QUOTE] Thanks for proving my point. Not that I'm surprised in your case, since [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1343696&p=43429406&viewfull=1#post43429406]you demonstrated quite clearly earlier in this same thread that you know fuckall about the Crusades[/url]. Why would I expect you in particular to be anymore knowledgeable about what exactly nationalism is?

"Historical war against Europe" good lord what shite

I still can't believe somebody could seriously type that in defence of their generalized hatred for Muslims RIP merge, killed by Islam's historical war against functioning internet forums

Mods can we have a monthly SH thunderdome where posters are summoned into a thread to defend their opinions if they win the poll? [editline]6th January 2014[/editline] I think my proposal will help improve the quality of posting in here

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;43432011] Thanks for proving my point.[/QUOTE] [B]na·tion·al·ism[/B] ˈnaSHənəˌlizəm/Submit noun noun: nationalism [I]1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, flag-waving, xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism "their extreme nationalism was frightening" an extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries. plural noun: nationalisms advocacy of political independence for a particular country. [/I] That's TOTALLY about striving to create a free society that values individual rights, tolerance, equality, etc. See? It's right there in the definition. By-the-by, I'd like to draw your attention to the synonyms.

[QUOTE=archangel125;43432098]na·tion·al·ism ˈnaSHənəˌlizəm/Submit noun noun: nationalism 1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, flag-waving, xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism "their extreme nationalism was frightening" an extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries. plural noun: nationalisms advocacy of political independence for a particular country.[/quote] You're should probably consider not relying on a dictionary as your primary source of information about this kind of complex topic. I know it's difficult for you to invest the time and effort necessary to actually understand this stuff, but it's really not [i]that[/i] complicated of a thing to do. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism[/url] [quote]Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.[1] From a psychological perspective, nationalism (national attachment) is distinct from other types of attachment, for example, attachment to a religion or a romantic partner. The desire for interpersonal attachment, or the need to belong, is one of the most fundamental human motivations. Like any attachment, nationalism can become dysfunctional if excessively applied.[2] From a political or sociological perspective, there are two main perspectives on the origins and basis of nationalism. One is the primordialist perspective that describes nationalism as a reflection of the ancient and perceived evolutionary tendency of humans to organize into distinct groupings based on an affinity of birth. The other is the modernist perspective that describes nationalism as a recent phenomenon that requires the structural conditions of modern society in order to exist.[3] There are various definitions for what constitutes a nation, however, which leads to several different strands of nationalism. It can be a belief that citizenship in a state should be limited to one ethnic, cultural, religious, or identity group, or that multinationality in a single state should necessarily comprise the right to express and exercise national identity even by minorities.[4] The adoption of national identity in terms of historical development has commonly been the result of a response by influential groups unsatisfied with traditional identities due to inconsistency between their defined social order and the experience of that social order by its members, resulting in a situation of anomie that nationalists seek to resolve.[5] This anomie results in a society or societies reinterpreting identity, retaining elements that are deemed acceptable and removing elements deemed unacceptable, in order to create a unified community.[5] This development may be the result of internal structural issues or the result of resentment by an existing group or groups towards other communities, especially foreign powers that are or are deemed to be controlling them.[5] National flags, national anthems and other symbols of national identity are commonly considered highly important symbols of the national community.[6][7][8][9][/quote] [QUOTE=archangel125;43432098]That's TOTALLY about striving to create a free society that values individual rights, tolerance, equality, etc. See? It's right there in the definition.[/quote] Take your ten-second attention span and at least attempt to understand what civic/liberal nationalism is. It's not a new concept in the slightest; Rousseau is the one who outlined it. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism[/url] [quote]Civic nationalism, also known as civil nationalism, is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic[citation needed] form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights.[1] Ernest Renan[2] and John Stuart Mill[3] are often thought to be early Civic nationalists. Civic nationalists often defend the value of national identity by saying that individuals need a national identity in order to lead meaningful, autonomous lives[4] and that democratic polities need national identity in order to function properly.[5] ... Civic nationalism lies within the traditions of rationalism and liberalism, but as a form of nationalism it is contrasted with ethnic nationalism. Membership of the civic nation is considered voluntary, as in Ernest Renan's classical definition in "Qu'est-ce qu'une nation?" of the nation as a "daily referendum" characterized by the "will to live together".[6] Civic-national ideals influenced the development of representative democracy in countries such as the United States and France (see the United States Declaration of Independence of 1776, and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789).[/quote]

My general thoughts on this are immigration needs to be tighter, it's nothing to do with countries, races or nationalism it's to do with we're a [I]small fucking island[/I] and our public services are unable to cope with the amount of people entering the country. There's nothing wrong with immigration if it's legal and the person contributes to society. It's when they come here in the back of trucks and then conveniently lose their passports and our current system can't do shit about it. Sorry if that seems "xenophobic" to you, but that's just the state of things.

What the fuck is all this world without any borders everyone is the same nation shit. America and canada are right beside each and I still need to get a cavity search to visit the south

[QUOTE=Lord Xenoyia;43432501]My general thoughts on this are immigration needs to be tighter, it's nothing to do with countries, races or nationalism it's to do with we're a [I]small fucking island[/I] and our public services are unable to cope with the amount of people entering the country. There's nothing wrong with immigration if it's legal and the person contributes to society. It's when they come here in the back of trucks and then conveniently lose their passports and our current system can't do shit about it. Sorry if that seems "xenophobic" to you, but that's just the state of things.[/QUOTE] The UK has some of the tightest immigration polices in the world. how does that sit with you.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;43432545]The UK has some of the tightest immigration polices in the world. how does that sit with you.[/QUOTE] Tight policies are worth shit all when it's easier to get in and stay illegally

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;43432557]Tight policies are worth shit all when it's easier to get in and stay illegally[/QUOTE] but it isn't lmao there is this fucking stupid myth that this is the UK [img]http://www.cornel1801.com/1/t/TITANIC/11-awards-pictures-quotes/No-you-ll-swamp-us.jpg[/img] with farage the only person willing to hold an oar to smack all the filthy immigrants swamping the country

[QUOTE=Vasili;43430123]Africans rounded up slaves for Arabs and Europeans, they traded [U][B]humans [/B][/U]for goods. Africans were as much involved in the dealings of the slave trade as much as being the victim of it, they still practice slavery today.[/QUOTE] Is that a Freudian slip I see. [QUOTE]I'm actually surprised that you care enough about something which happened 1000 years in the past enough for it to shape your current views on entire regions and ethnic groups even when their connection to that past is tenuous at best.[/QUOTE] The problem is that [U]they[/U] are STILL trying to make war on western civilization. They have a long history of doing this that they haven't quit at doing. I'm not even gonna BS - I dislike Islam because it's an all encompassing religion - either you submit or you don't, and radical Islam itself is a particularly frightening ideology - a radical theocratic-fascist conservative religious fanatic ideology dedicated to bringing down western civilization and replacing it with Islamic theocracy. I don't like the idea of submitting to any imaginary friend, thank you very much. Back on topic: Fact of the matter is though that this bastard is racist. It's not hard to see it, and that speech is the most godawful racist piece of shit I've ever heard.

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;43432557]Tight policies are worth shit all when it's easier to get in and stay illegally[/QUOTE] How so? Perhaps you can explain.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;43431749]No it isn't. Nationalism is the concept of a person identifying themselves with their respective nation and its national identity. That's all it is. How they choose to identify themselves with it is entirely up to them. And there's no shortage of different opinions on this. Some base it off ethnicity and race ([i]that's[/i] stupid), some base it off cultural and linguistical characteristics, legal allegiance (as in citizenship), etc.[/QUOTE] But that's still dumb? Identifying with your nation and their interests puts you at odds with the other people who do the same to their nations. No matter how you define it and whether you're intending to or not, it creates an "us vs. them" mentality which is wholly unhealthy.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;43431749]No it isn't. Nationalism is the concept of a person identifying themselves with their respective nation and its national identity. That's all it is. How they choose to identify themselves with it is entirely up to them. And there's no shortage of different opinions on this. Some base it off ethnicity and race ([I]that's[/I] stupid), some base it off cultural and linguistical characteristics, legal allegiance (as in citizenship), etc.[/QUOTE] Nationalism is an 18th Century invention and the only thing that came out of it was two devastating world wars and a handful of generations who think believe down to their bone marrow that they're better because they were born at a certain latitude and longitude. [editline]6th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;43432159]You're should probably consider not relying on a dictionary as your primary source of information about this kind of complex topic. I know it's difficult for you to invest the time and effort necessary to actually understand this stuff, but it's really not [I]that[/I] complicated of a thing to do. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism[/URL] Take your ten-second attention span and at least attempt to understand what civic/liberal nationalism is. It's not a new concept in the slightest; Rousseau is the one who outlined it. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism[/URL][/QUOTE] Yes, you handily quote wikipedia and shallowly try to explain yourself with passages from it, but at the core, you're still making excuses for your bigotry based on your dated antics. Furthermore, you're clinging to the defense of one sub-idea of nationalism based on the fact that someone said that Nationalism as a belief is idiotic. And now that you're caught defending it, you try to move the conversation to make it appear as if people were attacking Civic nationalism.

[QUOTE=Xystus234;43432729] The problem is that [U]they[/U] are STILL trying to make war on western civilization. They have a long history of doing this that they haven't quit at doing. [/QUOTE] This is absolute grade-a bullshit and no amount of hand-wringing over what the Umayyads did in Valencia can change that fact.

[QUOTE=Xystus234;43432729]The problem is that [U]they[/U] are STILL trying to make war on western civilization. They have a long history of doing this that they haven't quit at doing. I'm not even gonna BS - I dislike Islam because it's an all encompassing religion - either you submit or you don't, and radical Islam itself is a particularly frightening ideology - a radical theocratic-fascist conservative religious fanatic ideology dedicated to bringing down western civilization and replacing it with Islamic theocracy. I don't like the idea of submitting to any imaginary friend, thank you very much.[/QUOTE] this is a load of crap, 1. every religion in it's extreme forms is 'all encompassing' and frightening, ask muslims in myanmar about how peaceful buddhists are. 2. you realize that there are shitloads of muslims within western civilization right? the vast majority of whom are just normal people with a different religion. and the whole thing about making war on western civilization, that is exactly the same rhetoric that the fanatic muslims use in regards to the west, that we are still trying to take over the world in iraq & afghanistan etc etc [editline]6th January 2014[/editline] islam is just another religion and like every religion people that go too hardout on it are fucked in the head psychos