France's Marine Le Pen seen in Trump Tower: Does not confirm or deny meeting with Trump
83 replies, posted
[QUOTE=1239the;51675948]It may be a 'conspiracy' but following the money has usually been a pretty safe bet when it comes to politics.
[URL="https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-12-22/le-pen-struggling-to-fund-french-race-after-russian-backer-fails"]Le Pen of France searches for new Russian funding after losing old Russian funding.[/URL]
[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/world/europe/czech-republic-russia-milos-zeman.html"]Miloš Zeman of the Czech Republic gets massive court fine paid for by a Russian company.[/URL]
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/meet-the-pro-russian-anti-muslim-european-leader-who-was-just-invited-to-trumpswhite-house/2017/01/11/18c14536-d808-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7_story.html"]Bonus: He's invited to meet with Trump.[/URL]
[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/world/europe/austrias-far-right-signs-a-cooperation-pact-with-putins-party.html"]Heinz-Christian Strache in Austria signs cooperation pact with Russia.[/URL]
And then there's Trump. And they all share almost identical views: anti-Muslim, anti-EU/anti-NATO/anti-UN, pro-Russia, on good terms with Putin himself, extremely socially conservative, expouse populism, attack the media...[/QUOTE]
Russia does have an interest for disruptive movements to continue, and the links you bring up obviously illustrate that.
But that is a auxiliary piece in the failing policies and consequences of the examples I gave that stoked the populism of voters to keep growing and vote towards these candidates.
To say something that the working class individuals in these countries don't have legit grievances from those examples because it was all Russian interests/money is a huge simplification that is just not true.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51676003]Russia does have an interest for disruptive movements to continue, and the links you bring up obviously illustrate that.
But that is a auxiliary piece in the failing policies and consequences of the examples I gave that stoked the populism of voters to keep growing and vote towards these candidates.
To say something that the working class individuals in these countries don't have legit grievances from those examples because it was all Russian interests/money is a huge simplification that is just not true.[/QUOTE]
The point of a democracy is to represent the majority section of common interests of the population fairly, and currently the minority have an undue amount of influence - you could see this in the U.S. election where the majority voted for Hillary but Trump still won. I would argue that this would never have happened if it weren't for the Russian-backed media and political machine. Yes, the working class in many countries is being absolutely shafted, but I would vehemently disagree that this has to do with bad policy choices by 'liberal elites' - more it's to do with the extremely rapid pace of societal change that all sides of politics isn't keeping up with. Sen. Sanders identified this and proposed very good policy changes to help bring society up to speed (i.e. with massive education reform).
However the far-right (aided heavily by Russian interests) are subverting democracy to over-represent the minority, using the legitimate grievances of the working class as a springboard into pro-Russian interests with all the trappings thereof - most of these far-right political parties and media outlets would not survive without the capital provided by Russia and Russian-aligned businesses. Because of the funding, they can campaign massively under the impression it's entirely grass-roots instead of astroturfed, utilizing working class anger, amplifying it and turning it in their interests.
[URL="http://www.politico.eu/article/the-new-vladimir-putin-coalition-russia-donald-trump-francois-fillon-juri-ratas-rumen-radev-igor-dodon-geert-wilders-alexis-tsipras-viktor-orban/"]Here's an article doing a pretty good job of identifying the Russian links all these far-right politicians have.[/URL]
The margins in many of these elections have been so fucking slim that the possibility of Russian influence affecting the outcome by swaying it just that couple of percent becomes a very valid theory.
Le Pen is a piece of shit for multiple reasons before you even talk about Russian involvement. If the Trump government buddies up to her I would seriously be concerned. Her and her party are scum.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51675959]Is that a a belief in population or something. /s
I think I have stated several times at this point that I am all for people investigating the relationship between Putin and Trump. And that my disposition is to want to cooperate with Russia on several foreign affairs that I believe are bigger problems, hence why I am not joining the chorus on every speculative news piece between them.
So far the intelligence/evidence that has been verified on this topic is quite lacking to show that a conflict of interest exists where Putin is some kind of puppet-master.[/QUOTE]
I was referring to Le Pen, which you were talking about in the post I quoted.
I hope Le Pen can get into power in France.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676760]I hope Le Pen can get into power in France.[/QUOTE]
Why? What do you think she'll do that will be positive?
I've only heard negative thigns about her and her party. Her anti-EU stance is especially worrying for the fact that France is one of the biggest and most important members of the EU.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51676771]Why? What do you think she'll do that will be positive?
I've only heard negative thigns about her and her party. Her anti-EU stance is especially worrying for the fact that France is one of the biggest and most important members of the EU.[/QUOTE]
For me personally, I supported the British people's brexit move, I would hope France to do the same.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676760]I hope Le Pen can get into power in France.[/QUOTE]
Yes, more blonde nationalists with questionable standpoints in government positions.
It's a bit weird how that's actually a pattern lately.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676782]For me personally, I supported the British people's brexit move, I would hope France to do the same.[/QUOTE]
But [I]why.[/I] What positives are there to Brexit? What positives are there to France leaving the European Union? This is especially strange coming from an American, considering that Europe is a very important trading partner for America.
Brexit has and is only going to cause problems for the Brit, and it's going to more than likely have negative effects for us here, economically and politically. We at-least have some chance of benefiting a bit, but it's certainly not ideal.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676782]For me personally, I supported the British people's brexit move, I would hope France to do the same.[/QUOTE]
Given that the Brexit movement has produced many negative affects that the leave campaign either could not account for or in fact directly lied about, what makes you think France should leave the EU?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51676817]Given that the Brexit movement has produced many negative affects that the leave campaign either could not account for or in fact directly lied about, what makes you think France should leave the EU?[/QUOTE]
Nationalism needs to return to all countries, the E.U is a baby step towards globalism.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676782]For me personally, I supported the British people's brexit move, I would hope France to do the same.[/QUOTE]
Well I'm glad you support it but we're actually living with it and I can tell you its a fucking mistake.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676821]Nationalism needs to return to all countries, the E.U is a baby step towards globalism.[/QUOTE]
Do we need to have another world war before people like you stop harping on about the wonders of nationalism
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676821]Nationalism needs to return to all countries, the E.U is a baby step towards globalism.[/QUOTE]
I actually enjoy not having my economy collapse so anyone who thinks countries exiting the EU should become a trend can blow me.
All you've said so far is rhetoric Cinnamonbun. I'd like you to substantiate your arguments and reply to my post.
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;51676823]Well I'm glad you support it but we're actually living with it and I can tell you its a fucking mistake.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
Do we need to have another world war before people like you stop harping on about the wonders of nationalism[/QUOTE]
It won't happen again, we can still have nationalism and be friendly with all nations.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;51674671]so she's a Russian puppet?
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
what interest does Putin have in France[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/DZKbbmd.jpg[/IMG]
gotta counter germany
Cinnamonbun is pretty much just low-effort trolling at this point. I wish we had more Tudds who would at least try to make a case.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51676834]I actually enjoy not having my economy collapse so how about no.[/QUOTE]
Yeah the dutch economy was so bad before the EU.
Don't you remember the glory days of the trading companies? Netherlands was an extremely rich country.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=1239the;51676842]Cinnamonbun is pretty much just low-effort trolling at this point. I wish we had more Tudds who would at least try to make a case.[/QUOTE]
Yes, people with different opinions than you are trolling.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51676791]But [I]why.[/I] What positives are there to Brexit? What positives are there to France leaving the European Union? This is especially strange coming from an American, considering that Europe is a very important trading partner for America.
Brexit has and is only going to cause problems for the Brit, and it's going to more than likely have negative effects for us here, economically and politically. We at-least have some chance of benefiting a bit, but it's certainly not ideal.[/QUOTE]
Positives are that its closer to the disbandment of the E.U, and a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]Yeah the dutch economy was so bad before the EU.
Don't you remember the glory days of the trading companies? Netherlands was an extremely rich country.[/QUOTE]
Right now, I'm thinking of what'll happen to one of the largest export economies on the planet and who pretty much relies on the free import and export of the EU and what'll happen to it if it up and leaves the EU.
Yeah, it'll be so great for the economy.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]Yeah the dutch economy was so bad before the EU.
Don't you remember the glory days of the trading companies? Netherlands was an extremely rich country.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
Yes, people with different opinions than you are trolling.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
Positives are that its closer to the disbandment of the E.U, and a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.[/QUOTE]
No thanks I'd rather have a strong economy and job security but feel free to cry into a Union Jack on my behalf.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]Positives are that its closer to the disbandment of the E.U, and a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.[/QUOTE]
Why is the disbandment of the EU a positive? That's not even good for America; it'll make American trade into Europe simply harder. It's not good for Europe either, considering the EU is what has united Europe together and brought economic development to everywhere and has decreased inequality. Europe would not be able to stand without it.
Why is bringing "pride and nationalism" (whatever that means) back to Europe important? That had huge negative effects back in the day. It's not like I am not proud of Ireland because we are in Europe; but my country would not be as great as it is without the EU. I am Irish first, but I am also European. The fact I can choose to live and work in other EU countries is great; it's not a freedom many others have by right.
EDIT: I don't get it. You haven't explained your point of view at all. All you have said is rhetoric that I don't see bringing any benefits and only negatives.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]Positives are that its closer to the disbandment of the E.U, and a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.[/QUOTE]
pride doesn't put food on the table or money in the bank. this the definition of putting your feelings before facts.
[QUOTE=Cone;51676911]pride doesn't put food on the table or money in the bank. this the definition of putting your feelings before facts.[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, once we restore out national pride we'll sail across the Atlantic and bring that troublesome colony back into the empire. There'll more than enough food for everyone then.
[QUOTE=Cone;51676911]pride doesn't put food on the table or money in the bank. this the definition of putting your feelings before facts.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget, man. Sometimes feels before reals is actually beneficial.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]Yeah the dutch economy was so bad before the EU.
Don't you remember the glory days of the trading companies? Netherlands was an extremely rich country.
[/QUOTE]
Which time are you referring to? The Golden Age of the 17th century? I don't think I have to tell you the world has changed a lot since then...
The welfare boom of the post-war period? Even since then the world has changed a lot. The policies that resulted in that massive welfare boom just can't be re-implemented for various reasons. Our economy relies on the EU now.
Look, I get positive nationalism. I often feel positively nationalist. I'm proud of the fact that the Netherlands was the first country to legalize gay marriage, that our weed policy is liberal, that inequality is very low compared to other countries, our high rankings on, for example, the HDI and the IHDI. Being proud of your country for being tolerant and progressive, and wanting other countries to go along with you, is something I get. It is also something that doesn't require not having an entity like the EU.
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
I'm also proud of the EU, actually. The fact that the EU has brought Europe closer to each other and has prevented another major European conflict for more than half a century now, all the legislation centered around the environment and the safety of consumers, the economic prosperity it has brought us, etc.
Our weed policy could do with some consistency, though. Possession and growing for personal use is fine but any volume that can be sold to a coffee shop is illegal. So we're in a situation where a store that is itself legal has no legal way of getting supply. It's why I like how a few cities are now considering setting up growing operations and selling it to coffee shops.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676821]Nationalism needs to return to all countries, the E.U is a baby step towards globalism.[/QUOTE]
But if the result of that nationalism and escape from globalism is a net detriment to the country then what is the point?
[editline]15th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]
Positives are that its closer to the disbandment of the E.U, and a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.[/QUOTE]
Circular logic.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51676994]Our weed policy could do with some consistency, though. Possession and growing for personal use is fine but any volume that can be sold to a coffee shop is illegal. So we're in a situation where a store that is itself legal has no legal way of getting supply. It's why I like how a few cities are now considering setting up growing operations and selling it to coffee shops.[/QUOTE]
Yeah obviously our weed policy is pretty outdated and a mess, even some american states are overtaking us in the weed department now. But for almost half a century we had one of the most liberal weed policies in the world, and we're soon going to climb up again in that regard, with most political parties wanting to update it soon.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676838][B]It won't happen again,[/B] we can still have nationalism and be friendly with all nations.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.factslides.com/imgs/911-planes.jpg[/IMG]
"It won't happen here."
I have a feeling that the people who are talking about dissolving the EU in the interests of Nationalism didn't do all too well in their history classes.
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