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[QUOTE=Duck M.;51677123]I have a feeling that the people who are talking about dissolving the EU in the interests of Nationalism didn't do all too well in their history classes.[/QUOTE] It would be fine if they could at least explain the benefits of nationalism.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;51676963]Which time are you referring to? The Golden Age of the 17th century? I don't think I have to tell you the world has changed a lot since then... The welfare boom of the post-war period? Even since then the world has changed a lot. The policies that resulted in that massive welfare boom just can't be re-implemented for various reasons. Our economy relies on the EU now. Look, I get positive nationalism. I often feel positively nationalist. I'm proud of the fact that the Netherlands was the first country to legalize gay marriage, that our weed policy is liberal, that inequality is very low compared to other countries, our high rankings on, for example, the HDI and the IHDI. Being proud of your country for being tolerant and progressive, and wanting other countries to go along with you, is something I get. It is also something that doesn't require not having an entity like the EU. [editline]15th January 2017[/editline] I'm also proud of the EU, actually. The fact that the EU has brought Europe closer to each other and has prevented another major European conflict for more than half a century now, all the legislation centered around the environment and the safety of consumers, the economic prosperity it has brought us, etc.[/QUOTE] I'm not proud of the EU. I am still more proud of our country, and the fact that all those developments that you described, all happened before the EU got more political power over the countries in the EU as result of the 2007 Lisbon treaty. A treatry we voted against in 2005, and yet got pushed through two years later without another referendum. And given how much of a fucking shitshow the EU has been in the past few years, along with figureheads such as Juncker, Schultz and Verhofstadt openly flaunting how they don't like democracy. No shit that they think that, they weren't even voted in by the people, and they are very aware of how they would have zero chance to get elected if the European people had to vote someone into their position of power. And given in what very sorry state the capital of the EU, city of Brussels is right now, excuse me for thinking that the EU's leadership has been shown to be horribly incompetent at everything that isn't lining their own pockets or writing up more power to themselves. Either the EU makes some substantial reforms in it's structure so it can regain public trust back, or they shouldn't be surprised if more countries start threatening to leave, since non-binding referendums, as showcased by our Ukraine referendum in 2016, just get ignored to favor the EU-friendly solution in clear defiance of the actual vote, while people like Juncker laugh about it. We are getting sick of not getting taken seriously by those twats in their ivory tower back in Brussels. A sentiment that has been growing throughout Europe in the past few years. I'd rather see the EU return as solely an economical union, instead of the overarching political machine that is getting more and more out of touch with the population they want to govern over. Also, the EU didn't even exist for 50 years, you dummy. Or you have to count the days where it used to be a trade agreement under another name between western European countries, the European Economic Community, instead of the bogging-down overarching political structure it is now. We had the CSCE to have a political forum between the European countries + USSR/Russia, USA and Canada from 1973 to 1991 until it's importance got shelved in favor of starting the EU then. Thing is, we did practically promise Russia and Gorbachev to be a part of Europe then, or at least, would still keep some of those political relations from the CSCE. But the EU locked them out near instantly. In hindsight, it should have been handled better than that. And to end it off, I am sceptic about that economic prosperity. Before we introduced the Euro, the Dutch Florijn/Gulden was one of the strongest currencies in Europe. Plus, the economic situation and job market in the Netherlands were way better overall. In the past few years, it really feels like that we annually have a big Dutch company going out of business, while the job market isn't getting any better here.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844]Positives are that its closer to the disbandment of the E.U, and a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.[/QUOTE] Why can't we have both? Must be a pretty flimsy nation if being in a union destroys your pride.
[QUOTE=Jordax;51677345]I'm not proud of the EU. I am still more proud of our country, and the fact that all those developments that you described, all happened before the EU got more political power over the countries in the EU as result of the 2007 Lisbon treaty.[/QUOTE] Which developments do you mean? The ones I listed that I'm proud of that our country implemented or the EU? Also, I never said the EU doesn't have problems. [QUOTE=Jordax;51677345]A treaty we voted against in 2005, and yet got pushed through two years later without another referendum. And given how much of a fucking shitshow the EU has been in the past few years, along with figureheads such as Juncker, Schultz and Verhofstadt openly flaunting how they don't like democracy. No shit that they think that, they weren't even voted in by the people, and they are very aware of how they would have zero chance to get elected if the European people had to vote someone into their position of power. [/QUOTE] The idea that Juncker is against democracy is based on nothing, really. I mean, I don't like the guy very much, but I'll defend him on that. I don't think he likes [I]direct[/I] democracy. That is one thing I agree on. Not everyone is informed about everything, and why should they? That is why we have people who we elect to do this shit for us. I agree that the representative democracy levels of the EU could be toned down, but in some respects it is good that people who actually know what they're doing are calling the shots instead of people who can't stay informed or know about [I]everything[/I]. [QUOTE=Jordax;51677345]And given in what very sorry state the capital of the EU, city of Brussels is right now, excuse me for thinking that the EU's leadership has been shown to be horribly incompetent at everything that isn't lining their own pockets or writing up more power to themselves.[/QUOTE] I don't know why you keep mentioning this whenever the EU is mentioned. That is the responsibility of the Belgian government, not the EU. Would you like the EU to have more influence over that? I thought you were against that? [QUOTE=Jordax;51677345]Either the EU makes some substantial reforms in it's structure so it can regain public trust back, or they shouldn't be surprised if more countries start threatening to leave, since non-binding referendums, as showcased by our Ukraine referendum in 2016, just get ignored to favor the EU-friendly solution in clear defiance of the actual vote, while people like Juncker laugh about it. We are getting sick of not getting taken seriously by those twats in their ivory tower back in Brussels. A sentiment that has been growing throughout Europe in the past few years. I'd rather see the EU return as solely an economical union, instead of the overarching political machine that is getting more and more out of touch with the population they want to govern over.[/QUOTE] Even before the EU was officially called 'the EU' institutions like the European Parlement, the Commission, etc already existed and were already making legislation. Making EU-wide laws is much more effective than attempting to get every individual country to go along with you. If the EU dissolved and a new one popped up, people would probably start talking about universal law again because it's just more effective. Combatting things like climate change and forcing good standards on countries that want to trade with our huge bloc that is the EU require the EU. [QUOTE=Jordax;51677345]Also, the EU didn't even exist for 50 years, you dummy. Or you have to count the days where it used to be a trade agreement under another name between western European countries, the European Economic Community, instead of the bogging-down overarching political structure it is now. We had the CSCE to have a political forum between the European countries + USSR/Russia, USA and Canada from 1973 to 1991 until it's importance got shelved in favor of starting the EU then. Thing is, we did practically promise Russia and Gorbachev to be a part of Europe then, or at least, would still keep some of those political relations from the CSCE. But the EU locked them out near instantly. In hindsight, it should have been handled better than that.[/QUOTE] No need to start calling me names. I [I]did[/I] count the EEC and so forth. Like I said before, the institutions like the parlement and the commission have existed way before it officially became the EU. Also I don't disagree that being more inclusive towards Russia would've been a better idea. [QUOTE=Jordax;51677345]And to end it off, I am sceptic about that economic prosperity. Before we introduced the Euro, the Dutch Florijn/Gulden was one of the strongest currencies in Europe. Plus, the economic situation and job market in the Netherlands were way better overall.[/QUOTE] Which time period are you talking about here, the 1990's? The shitty economic situation that we are currently actually recovering from is attributable to the crisis of 2007/2008, and a solution for the cause of that crisis is being blocked by eurosceptics. [QUOTE=Jordax;51677345] the past few years, it really feels like that we annually have a big Dutch company going out of business, while the job market isn't getting any better here.[/QUOTE] How do you know this is necessarily attributable to the EU?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51677158]It would be fine if they could at least explain the benefits of nationalism.[/QUOTE] The one I can think of is economic protectionism, which is definitely necessary as long as there's inhomogenity in economic rules between countries. However, the EU [I]already implements that to a pretty high degree[/I]. There are lots of products that have special conditions and subsidies attached so as not to wreck anything because of the open borders, in order to make sure it overall works out to mutual benefits. Germany pays a lot into the union for example, but we gain far more from it through the economic boost and global political leverage it gives to the region. Most people here consider it a laughable idea to leave. Then again, that's partly due to cultural matters since Germans consider themselves to be 'EU citizens' to a higher degree than people from most other member countries.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676760]I hope Le Pen can get into power in France.[/QUOTE] My mind is simply blown. [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/us.png[/img] Fucking wow.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51674925]Wait why would Finn nationalists like Russia? That's kind of absurd.[/QUOTE] Globalism (in this case, inter-connectivity due to the internet) has lead to a very strange brand of nationalism. Rather than blame other countries for all their woes, they unite against a common enemy, the "Globalists". They see them as a sort of Illuminati-like organization made up of the political left, which is responsible for most of their nation's problems, and so must be eliminated in order for their nation to prosper. Russia comes in because they're uncooperative, nationalist, and have a strong right-wing leader. So a romanticized version of Russia under Vladimir Putin becomes something they aspire to have for their own countries. Russia of course exploits these attitudes to further their own agenda.
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51679059]My mind is simply blown. [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/us.png[/img] Fucking wow.[/QUOTE] I think that's the most hilarious thing, in an ironic twist. Whenever I see people cheering on far-right twits and hoping the EU will dissolve, it's more often than not people from outside the EU, and Europe altogether.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;51674861]To weaken the EU from the inside[/QUOTE] Why would Putin want to weaken a massive business partner to Russia? Sounds like a financially bad move to me?
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;51679111]I think that's the most hilarious thing, in an ironic twist. Whenever I see people cheering on far-right twits and hoping the EU will dissolve, it's more often than not people from outside the EU, and Europe altogether.[/QUOTE] trumpettes here have picked up on it and somehow believe the EU = slavery. its fucking stupid and i don't care for it but thats what rightwing media here has decided to go with
[QUOTE=booster;51679192]Why would Putin want to weaken a massive business partner to Russia? Sounds like a financially bad move to me?[/QUOTE] Not if you weaken it so it is more susceptible to your influence?
Putin would like nothing more than to see the Soviet Union reborn, whether in its past form or a new one. A weaker EU will make that so much easier.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676821]Nationalism needs to return to all countries, [B]the E.U is a baby step towards globalism[/B].[/QUOTE] Do you have an argument? Or are you pasting cookie cutter rhetoric? Start pulling up some sources, start researching things without an angle in mind, think about it, and then post here WHY you believe as you do
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51675989]Outside the realm of immigration, is there anything far-right parties in Europe have going for them?[/QUOTE]Depends on the party. The Finns party here, for all their many and grievous flaws, at least believe in safeguarding the welfare state. Though maybe their manifesto has changed recently, haven't kept up with them that much since they got third place in the parliamentary elections.
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51679059]My mind is simply blown. [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/us.png[/img] Fucking wow.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;51679111]I think that's the most hilarious thing, in an ironic twist. Whenever I see people cheering on far-right twits and hoping the EU will dissolve, it's more often than not people from outside the EU, and Europe altogether.[/QUOTE] I don't know about you guys, but I had high hopes last year that Trump would lose the election, despite living here: [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/dk.png[/img] And I was likewise relieved that the right-wing dudeperson in Austria didn't win either, in December. I'm sure many other people felt this way as well despite not living in either of these two countries. So why should Americans be excluded from wanting certain outcomes in other countries' political affairs?
[QUOTE=Chrille;51679336]I don't know about you guys, but I had high hopes last year that Trump would lose the election, despite living here: [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/dk.png[/img] And I was likewise relieved that the right-wing dudeperson in Austria didn't win either, in December. I'm sure many other people felt this way as well despite not living in either of these two countries. So why should Americans be excluded from wanting certain outcomes in other countries' political affairs?[/QUOTE] I'm not excluding anyone. They can take all the interest they like. But I find it insane that so many non-Europeans want to see the [I]entire[/I] EU fail and dissolve. Why? What the fuck is it to them that we've decided to band together and help each other?
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676821]Nationalism needs to return to all countries, [/QUOTE] explain why
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;51679328]Depends on the party. The Finns party here, for all their many and grievous flaws, at least believe in safeguarding the welfare state. Though maybe their manifesto has changed recently, haven't kept up with them that much since they got third place in the parliamentary elections.[/QUOTE] And over in the Netherlands, we have an idiot who runs his party like a tyrant and isn't racist but those fucking moroccans, amirite?
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;51679372]I'm not excluding anyone. They can take all the interest they like. But I find it insane that so many non-Europeans want to see the [I]entire[/I] EU fail and dissolve. Why? What the fuck is it to them that we've decided to band together and help each other?[/QUOTE] Does the reason honestly matter? There isn't a singular one anyway and most reasons I've read so far seem misguided. Some genuinely believe that there is a Zionist conspiracy at the root of the EU while others see it as a corrupt institution that harms the cultural well-being of individual nations. People who respond to a perceived extremism (globalism) with another extremism (nationalism).
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;51676844] a return to pride and nationalism in each individuals nation.[/QUOTE] You can have this while remaining in the EU.
It's only pragmatic to care for the slice of land you belong to first before acting internationally - it's easier to fix the problems of a few tens of millions than it is the billions of people globally. However, when nationalist sentiment gets in the way of peaceful and free communication and trade between countries, that is the danger.
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;51679372]I'm not excluding anyone. They can take all the interest they like. But I find it insane that so many non-Europeans want to see the [I]entire[/I] EU fail and dissolve. Why? What the fuck is it to them that we've decided to band together and help each other?[/QUOTE] The same reason people with European flags wanted to see Trump win: Ideologues
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51679105]Globalism (in this case, inter-connectivity due to the internet) has lead to a very strange brand of nationalism. Rather than blame other countries for all their woes, they unite against a common enemy, the "Globalists". They see them as a sort of Illuminati-like organization made up of the political left, which is responsible for most of their nation's problems, and so must be eliminated in order for their nation to prosper. Russia comes in because they're uncooperative, nationalist, and have a strong right-wing leader. So a romanticized version of Russia under Vladimir Putin becomes something they aspire to have for their own countries. Russia of course exploits these attitudes to further their own agenda.[/QUOTE] It seems like basically reconjuring the Jewish boogeyman of the 1930's who are trying to sabotage society and bring the world under one massive government who rules all. A lot of the alt-right even equates Jews to globalists directly.
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