STEM Disruption - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Trumple;48576027]Okay but the mathematics required in geography for example is incomparable to that required of a person studying a STEM degree. Economics is a little bit more "mathsy" but even then, it's not anywhere near as involved as what someone might learn studying Mechanical Engineering for instance. Control theory, advanced calculus, and statistics all make up just some of the things a typical STEM graduate might be required to learn, on top of degree-specific maths and other content. As for the logical, problem-solving abilities - I can't speak for the logic involved in something like Philosophy, but there is a reason banks and other technical employers hire STEM grads over humanities grads even when the STEM grad hasn't studied anything related to banking. [/QUOTE] Saying economics is a [I]little bit more mathsy [/I] sounds to me like you've never opened a microeconomics book. Economics is all maths. That's like 99% of economics. Also, try reading a sociology or political science paper if you think they use simple maths. 80% of social science research is tailoring or coming up with complicated statistical models that are anything but uninvolved. That's why in many universities Statistics and Social Sciences are close spatially, there aren't any disciplines that employ statistics as much and as profoundly as social sciences. Also, Political Science majors are commonly hired by banks and used as fraud sniffers in international banking.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;48576127]no no no i wasnt arguing against any of that i was just reacting to that guy who was like 'i cant even fathom how liberal arts get through the logic portion LSAT' nor was i even coming close to debating that STEM people arent better equipped, i just wanted to point out that most people don't get through their BA without some kind of general preparedness[/QUOTE] Oh right sorry, we don't have the LSAT here so I'm not familiar with that [editline]31st August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48578480']Saying economics is a [I]little bit more mathsy [/I] sounds to me like you've never opened a microeconomics book. Economics is all maths. That's like 99% of economics.[/QUOTE] I will admit I've never been compelled to open a microeconomics book. Could you point me to some common examples of the maths used in economics? Are we talking calculating fractions or solving differential equations? [QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48578480'] Also, try reading a sociology or political science paper if you think they use simple maths. 80% of social science research is tailoring or coming up with complicated statistical models that are anything but uninvolved. That's why in many universities Statistics and Social Sciences are close spatially, there aren't any disciplines that employ statistics as much and as profoundly as social sciences. [/QUOTE] When you say "social science research" - did you mean that only postgrads/PhD students in social sciences will make use of advanced statistics? Or are you saying all social science students are taught and examined on statistics as a fundamental key component of the degree?

[QUOTE=godfatherk;48575994]I just checked the leaflet of DIA supermarkets of Argentina and a 150g bag of chips costs 9pesos, that's 0.9euros A kg of chicken costs 16pesos, wich comes out at 1,5euros. 80pesos for a kg of vacio meat. that's 7.5 euros. You've got cheap oranges, 6pesos/kg, that's 0.5euros, but besides that everyother food prise looks the same as you would find in any other supermarket in the EU or US. And what does renting a ~20m2 one room apt. cost in one of those 3 cities you mentioned? What's a litre of pump diesel cost? What's the minimum and the median wage in buenos aires, and in the rest of the country? And how much should an engineer expect to earn in Buenos Aires or province? Payscale says the minimum is 6.5keuros/year and median is 10-13k€/year for software engineers. I think the article in the OP states that in the US it soft. engineer wage starts at ~60k$/year so...[/QUOTE] Yes, I unintentionally exaggerated my "Everything is cheaper". By what I meant as "everything" is the things I buy or use. No doubt things like Renting, Clothing, Medicine, Education, Transport and such are infinitely cheaper than in the US. But, as you have mentioned, fuel prices, technology, car owning, you know, higher end stuff, is more expensive. No doubt. I think you are misunderstanding my point, and I believe so due to the last comment. My point is NOT: Come to Argentina, you will be better than in the US! My point is: Did you spent a massive amount of money on education? And you are finding a hard time at getting a job in your industrial sector and you believe your ROI is way too shitty? Then what the fuck are you doing in that economy? [I]Come over to [I][U][B]LATAM [/B][/U][/I]and stop worrying.[/I] If we want to guide ourselves just by where we can earn more in a determined industrial sector, Switzerland all day long. If you want guys I can make a full description of living costs in Argentina, if any one of you is REALLY interested. Why? Well because, unlike Europe or USA, where inflation is X<5%, things in Argentina are VERY volatile (40% annual inflation). Food prices in cities are heavily affected by the station of the year or fuel price spikes (Unlike most of you, we haven't been able to enjoy the decline of power of your Arab friends) I wouldn't even trust any of those Payscale and stuff websites. Why? Well, hell, because even salaries are volatile and different. A guy who sells ticket at a subway station....gets paid 12k a month. The same goes for a train driver. Yet a British guy working as a sales guy for a top retail brand in Palermo Chico -one of the most expensive neighbourhoods- gets paid 9k. See where I'm going? And a STEM major working in a multinational with competence in Spanish and English, coming from USA, can easily be paid 19-20k in its first job? Why? Unlike the local competence, GOOD English speakers are in short and VERY needed. I said GOOD English speakers. NATIVE English speakers? Come here. [QUOTE]I will admit I've never been compelled to open a microeconomics book. Could you point me to some common examples of the maths used in economics? Are we talking calculating fractions or solving differential equations? [/QUOTE] It's all mostly related to optimization problems. Hessians, lagrange multipliers, integrating in multiple variables. And I am talking 1rst half of the 2nd year stuff (It takes 4 years in the UTDT to get a Degree in Economics). I can't imagine what the guys in the last year are going through. But the thing doesn't have to do with whether it's more or less "mathsy". The thing is, there are a lot of relations and logical conclusions inside the models that you have to be aware at all times of how those changes affect other functions and equilibriums.

20k... USD?

[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;48578796]20k... USD?[/QUOTE] You fucking wish. 20k pesos. And yes, a SINGLE guy, earning 20k per month, here, means waaaaay above the average. Starting from 30k and on, you are rich. Graduates from my university (UTDT) and the ITBA, can expect to make 30k+ in their first year. Fuck, some of them are actually taken to work abroad...The math level of the university is said to be on par with the MIT econ classes. EDIT: A few prices: Monthly Medical Prepaga (Forgot the name for this in English. Basically, the thing that would have avoided Breaking Bad happening): 2000 pesos. Covers everything and you can use it as much as you need it. I've had a nose surgery (Deviated septum), like 10 studies of my shoulder and hips, and right now I'm undergoing CPR and Kinesiology for 10 sessions each one. A flat in a normal neighbourhood of Capital for one person: 2000 pesos per month. The most expensive neighbourhoods? 4000-5000 pesos per month. Taxes/Services: 1000 pesos (Water, Light and Gas are HEAVILY subsidized in Capital Federal. To the point of promoting wasting them) A bus ticket: 3.50 pesos A subway ticket (From anywhere, to anywhere): 5 pesos WITHOUT SUBE card. 4.50 pesos WITH SUBE Card. Train trip from Capital to the metro area/conurbano: 3 pesos AN Iphone 6: Circa 15.000 pesos. (1000 dollars) See, fucked up. For comparison: Dollar at official rate: 1 USD per 9.25 pesos. At Blue/Market rate: 1 USD per 15 pesos.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48578816]You fucking wish. 20k pesos. [/QUOTE] Yeah... no. That's just not worth the time and effort. In US, if you live by large city, you can get 60k, if you find a right position, which arguably isn't too hard.

[QUOTE=gufu;48578854]Yeah... no. That's just not worth the time and effort. In US, if you live by large city, you can get 60k, if you find a right position, which arguably isn't too hard.[/QUOTE] Again, you are not taking into account the price of stuff in here. And well, again. IF you are having a hard time at finding that position. Go find me the same medical....medical stuff in the US for the price of 200 dollars a month. EDIT: If you are looking out to max earnings, I would totally recommend going to Chile. It's not as so open as the Argentine society nor egalitarian, but still, they got some really amazing prices, their economy is booming and they have a much better tax policy, so you can save up very quickly. Thing is, their local labor force, for higher end and medium to high skill levels, tends to be more trained and educated, so you can expect to face more pressure than in Argentina. Chile, or Peru. No doubts.

[QUOTE=Trumple;48575780]Wait, what? What liberal arts degrees have any sort of focus on mathematics? Or am I misunderstanding?[/QUOTE] This is hilarious. I can't think of a liberal arts college that doesn't require math credits to graduate. Most liberal arts graduates have math knowledge up to at least Calculus 1, if not beyond. The entire point of liberal arts is you get an education in more than one field. Some math, some history, some science, some social studies, humanities, philosophy and religion, etc. Obviously a math major going to a renowned technical institute is going to have more math knowledge than someone going for a less-specialized, more rounded education. The liberal arts college I'm going to has an excellent pre-med program that involves an absolute assload of math. It's not like liberal arts schools replace "math" with "women's studies" and "science" with "philosophy of South American murals."

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48579200]This is hilarious. I can't think of a liberal arts college that doesn't require math credits to graduate. Most liberal arts graduates have math knowledge up to at least Calculus 1, if not beyond. The entire point of liberal arts is you get an education in more than one field. Some math, some history, some science, some social studies, humanities, philosophy and religion, etc. Obviously a math major going to a renowned technical institute is going to have more math knowledge than someone going for a less-specialized, more rounded education. The liberal arts college I'm going to has an excellent pre-med program that involves an absolute assload of math. It's not like liberal arts schools replace "math" with "women's studies" and "science" with "philosophy of South American murals."[/QUOTE] Calculus 1 is nowhere near anything advanced in math lol, the majority of people can take it in high school or an even higher level math course

[QUOTE=lyna;48579493]Calculus 1 is nowhere near anything advanced in math lol, the majority of people can take it in high school or an even higher level math course[/QUOTE] I took it in high school, and I know it's not that advanced - but he specifically asked if economics "used fractions" or "solved differential equations." Differential equations are high-school level. Liberal arts [i]tend[/i] to have less of a focus on math, but saying it doesn't have [i]any[/i] sort of focus on mathematics is wrong. It depends on what you major in. Pre-med? Plenty of math. Majoring in math? Loads of math. Studying philosophy? You're probably not taking very many math courses, but you're still taking courses on Logic and such that involve mathematics. I have several friends who went to a state school and only have to take a single math course. This could be pre-cal level math. A single course. My liberal arts college requires the same. Why do people think that it's a liberal arts college problem when publicly-funded state schools require nothing more than a pre-cal course? The requirements are equal for most schools - unless you're going to an engineering school or other pre-specialized school.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48579938]Differential equations are high-school level.[/QUOTE] That's not completely true, the simpler equations may be studied in HS but that's hardly the core of differential equations and isn't of much use. I don't know much about US universities but that's how it is in France and AFAIK we see most math-related stuff earlier than you do so I assume that's the same in the US.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48579938]I took it in high school, and I know it's not that advanced - but he specifically asked if economics "used fractions" or "solved differential equations." Differential equations are high-school level. Liberal arts [i]tend[/i] to have less of a focus on math, but saying it doesn't have [i]any[/i] sort of focus on mathematics is wrong. It depends on what you major in. Pre-med? Plenty of math. Majoring in math? Loads of math. Studying philosophy? You're probably not taking very many math courses, but you're still taking courses on Logic and such that involve mathematics. I have several friends who went to a state school and only have to take a single math course. This could be pre-cal level math. A single course. My liberal arts college requires the same. Why do people think that it's a liberal arts college problem when publicly-funded state schools require nothing more than a pre-cal course? The requirements are equal for most schools - unless you're going to an engineering school or other pre-specialized school.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I see the confusion. Both of those examples are examples of "basic" maths IMO - what I meant to say was "fractions and differential equations"? As in, non-specialized stuff, the stuff people learn at school and don't rely on higher education for. I'm getting a little bit confused here because the UK system is a bit different, we don't have major/minor courses, but the courses are separated into different modules. Most social sciences have a maths module, but again, it's not exactly advanced. To rephrase my original question, would maths topics in liberal arts degrees look like this: -Fractions -Differential equations -Algebra -General arithmetic Or like this: -Fourier series -Complex numbers -Laplace transforms -Matrix/vector maths I'm still trying to gauge the level of maths you're talking about

It's also a bit confusing in that the study of differential equations can range from very basic (high school level) to extremely high level (unsolved problems in mathematics level). So have to be a bit more specific with things like that IMO. :P

[QUOTE=AXidenT;48580722]It's also a bit confusing in that the study of differential equations can range from very basic (high school level) to extremely high level (unsolved problems in mathematics level). So have to be a bit more specific with things like that IMO. :P[/QUOTE] Yes true - solving a 2nd order differential equation for example involves a lot more background knowledge than a typical basic differentiation problem. It's been so long since I did my maths modules, it all kind of blurs into one subject :v:

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48571496]It sucks that jobs are getting replaced, but this is how progress is made.[/QUOTE] When said progress is at the expense of a lot of peoples jobs then I wouldn't really call it progress at all. This wouldn't be so much of a problem is people weren't so anti welfare but this could essentially leave tons of people homeless and jobless due to the publics stupid greedy attitude.

I could see citizen's income becoming a thing when automation and robotics start becoming big

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48579200]This is hilarious. I can't think of a liberal arts college that doesn't require math credits to graduate. Most liberal arts graduates have math knowledge up to at least Calculus 1, if not beyond. The entire point of liberal arts is you get an education in more than one field. Some math, some history, some science, some social studies, humanities, philosophy and religion, etc. Obviously a math major going to a renowned technical institute is going to have more math knowledge than someone going for a less-specialized, more rounded education. The liberal arts college I'm going to has an excellent pre-med program that involves an absolute assload of math. It's not like liberal arts schools replace "math" with "women's studies" and "science" with "philosophy of South American murals."[/QUOTE] yeah it's not like that in the UK, we basically focus on the subject of our degree the whole time. if it's not relevant to the degree, it's not going to be a module on the course, and nobody is really expected to do modules outside of their degree at all. the exception to this is sometimes people do language modules on their science courses [editline]31st August 2015[/editline] we also seem to have wildly differing ideas of what constitutes "liberal arts". I don't think I really hear that term here at all, we have humanities (history, geography, philosophy, literature etc.) and arts. the technical awards of the degrees are different as well - most mathematics degrees are BSc, not BA

[QUOTE=Jojje;48580817]I could see citizen's income becoming a thing when automation and robotics start becoming big[/QUOTE] It'll take a lot more than what we have now to start automating non-trivially automated tasks. Even simple things like sweeping and cleaning are difficult to automate, so only a select few repeatable tasks are actually automated (e.g. car manufacturing, PCB construction, train driving). Anything beyond that and it requires a different technology altogether. A popular belief is that true artificial intelligence (i.e. one that comes anywhere near the intelligence of a human) will be the table-turner, as we could employ cheap robots that work all day and night and don't need paying or feeding to do a lot of the mundane tasks. Eventually it might even replace all blue-collar jobs and start replacing the white-collar jobs, if even in that order. If you're interested in that stuff, check out the AI thread: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1457207[/url]

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48578892]Again, [B]you are not taking into account the price of stuff in here.[/B] And well, again. IF you are having a hard time at finding that position. Go find me the same medical....medical stuff in the US for the price of 200 dollars a month. EDIT: If you are looking out to max earnings, I would totally recommend going to Chile. It's not as so open as the Argentine society nor egalitarian, but still, they got some really amazing prices, their economy is booming and they have a much better tax policy, so you can save up very quickly. Thing is, their local labor force, for higher end and medium to high skill levels, tends to be more trained and educated, so you can expect to face more pressure than in Argentina. Chile, or Peru. No doubts.[/QUOTE] Didn't we already conclude that prices in Argentina are more or less the same as you would find anywhere else in US or EU? Look at some supermarket leaflets of EU countries, or US if you don't want to take my word for granted. Also, 200euros/month for 1 person rent in Buenos Aires is the same as you can find in Austrian cities(incl Vienna), some German cities(esp. former East German ones), spanish cities incl. Madrid. etc. Transportation in Argentina seems the same as in Romania, where you can get a ticket with 2 travels to anywhere in the tube for 1 euro. thats 0.5 per travel. Other cities in EU are 2 or 3 times more expensive in that regard. Petrol is 1.2euros in europe, more or less the same, give or take a few cents because each country has higher or lower taxation on petrol at the refill stations. But the thing is that even though prices might be 3-5 times higher in the US or Eu(even though they arent, but let's be ridiculous), the minimum and median wages are 5 to 15 times higher. So you end up saving 15 times more than you would have been able to save in Argentina. That is, you end up having 15 times more capital to spare on leisure activities or investments if you were to work in Switzerland, NY,London, etc. than if you were to have worked in Buenos Aires, for a simmilar position/job. Because Argentina doesn't have free trade agreements with large electronics or car producing countries, I suppose that's why prices are more expensive for cars/cellphones etc.

[QUOTE=godfatherk;48586460]Didn't we already conclude that prices in Argentina are more or less the same as you would find anywhere else in US or EU? Look at some supermarket leaflets of EU countries, or US if you don't want to take my word for granted. Also, 200euros/month for 1 person rent in Buenos Aires is the same as you can find in Austrian cities(incl Vienna), some German cities(esp. former East German ones), spanish cities incl. Madrid. etc. Transportation in Argentina seems the same as in Romania, where you can get a ticket with 2 travels to anywhere in the tube for 1 euro. thats 0.5 per travel. Other cities in EU are 2 or 3 times more expensive in that regard. Petrol is 1.2euros in europe, more or less the same, give or take a few cents because each country has higher or lower taxation on petrol at the refill stations. But the thing is that even though prices might be 3-5 times higher in the US or Eu(even though they arent, but let's be ridiculous), the minimum and median wages are 5 to 15 times higher. So you end up saving 15 times more than you would have been able to save in Argentina. That is, you end up having 15 times more capital to spare on leisure activities or investments if you were to work in Switzerland, NY,London, etc. than if you were to have worked in Buenos Aires, for a simmilar position/job. [/QUOTE] 2000/17 pesos (Which 1 EUR = 17 pesos), 110 Euros. Half the price. Again, find me a medical cover insurance (I think that's what its called) in the US, that completely covers you, for 200 dollars. No wait, I did a wrong calc...2000/15=133 And all the others expenses mentioned. The discussion here is from US to LATAM. Not from Europe to LATAM. That time period has already passed.

[QUOTE=Trumple;48578701]Oh right sorry, we don't have the LSAT here so I'm not familiar with that [editline]31st August 2015[/editline] I will admit I've never been compelled to open a microeconomics book. Could you point me to some common examples of the maths used in economics? Are we talking calculating fractions or solving differential equations? When you say "social science research" - did you mean that only postgrads/PhD students in social sciences will make use of advanced statistics? Or are you saying all social science students are taught and examined on statistics as a fundamental key component of the degree?[/QUOTE] Sorry for the late reply, keep in mind that I'm talking about italian college, in the UK you might do it differently: [QUOTE]I will admit I've never been compelled to open a microeconomics book. Could you point me to some common examples of the maths used in economics? Are we talking calculating fractions or solving differential equations? [/QUOTE] Basic Microeconomics 101 (the one I studied) required knowledge of calculus, integral, differential, and logic. We also studied game theory. If you actually major in economics then you'll have to study [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_economics"]Mathematical Economics[/URL], which you can see by yourself requires anything but basic maths. Advanced calculus is just the tip of the iceberg. [QUOTE]When you say "social science research" - did you mean that only postgrads/PhD students in social sciences will make use of advanced statistics? Or are you saying all social science students are taught and examined on statistics as a fundamental key component of the degree?[/QUOTE] Both. Doctorates will make use of advanced statistics and statistics is also one of the courses that every student of social science has to go through. For example, I major in Political Science (metaphorically, Italy doesn't really use the major/minor system) and Statistics has the same amount of hours and credits than Political Science 1, which is supposed to be the flagship of the entire degree, if you will.

And please before anyone answers me again regarding prices, I will repeat it once more so the discussion is not derailed: I am talking about being something more than a paper pusher. Not dick waving about how cheap Argentina is. What, suddenly the US has got full employment in all areas, everyone works where they want and there are no financial problems? Last time I checked here most or a lot of guys from FP had a crap ton of problems with their jobs or financial matters. That is what I'm addressing. Emigrating to another country if you are having issues.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48572432]Both of those are failures, so that's a dead end idea right there.[/QUOTE] Capitalism will merely evolve to adapt, just as Feudalism evolved into Capitalism centuries prior. I don't like seeing automation because society(particularly the US) has been conditioned to think that if they aren't working, they have no self-value. But when we move back towards a artisan economy where people are paid for their individual ability that require training and skill we could recover. Senior Care, Construction, among others are definitely low/middle skill level fields that won't be going away for a long time, if ever.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48592980]And please before anyone answers me again regarding prices, I will repeat it once more so the discussion is not derailed: I am talking about being something more than a paper pusher. Not dick waving about how cheap Argentina is. What, suddenly the US has got full employment in all areas, everyone works where they want and there are no financial problems? Last time I checked here most or a lot of guys from FP had a crap ton of problems with their jobs or financial matters. That is what I'm addressing. Emigrating to another country if you are having issues.[/QUOTE] People don't want to move to South America because one of the first images people think of are the slums. Obviously a westerner moving to South America won't be in that situation, but then you have other issues such as political corruption, crime, and cultural differences. For instance, liberalism (the various definitions of it) are deeply rooted in western culture, but other cultures can't say the same.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48592980]What, suddenly the US has got full employment in all areas, everyone works where they want and there are no financial problems? Last time I checked here most or a lot of guys from FP had a crap ton of problems with their jobs or financial matters.[/QUOTE] The U.S. unemployment rate is about the same as it was in the late 80s, 96, and 05. The underutilization (U6) rate is about the same as it was in 95 and 03. All of those years were generally considered good years for the economy. Initial claims for unemployment is the lowest it has been since the early 70s. U.S. employment is pretty good right now.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;48571706]Efficiently and effectively serving the market. [editline]30th August 2015[/editline] Impossible[/QUOTE] Why do you think that? Post-scarcity seems very feasible with our means of production moving toward automated technologies which are considerably more efficient. Technologies like culture-grown meat and hydroponic farming have remarkable potential.

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;48609029]Why do you think that? Post-scarcity seems very feasible with our means of production moving toward automated technologies which are considerably more efficient. Technologies like culture-grown meat and hydroponic farming have remarkable potential.[/QUOTE] Post-scarcity isn't possible. It's like saying you can reverse entropy.

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;48609029]Why do you think that? Post-scarcity seems very feasible with our means of production moving toward automated technologies which are considerably more efficient. Technologies like culture-grown meat and hydroponic farming have remarkable potential.[/QUOTE] Because there's a cost that you aren't seeing. Like those who say "Well, solar and wind energy will replace fossil fuels". The thing is, ironically, you need fossil fuels to make those things, and if the costs of making them exceeds the power they will provide for their lifespan or if it equals the same amount of energy, it's a waste in the long run. That's why for example, nuclear energy is so daaaaayum expensive when you have to pay for the installation, but as time goes, it makes energy cheaper.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48609054]Post-scarcity isn't possible. It's like saying you can reverse entropy.[/QUOTE] While Post-scarcity technically isn't possible, something close or next to it where renewable resources take over the majority of non-renewable and the non-renewable resources still needed are used incredibly efficiently is most certainly possible. [editline]3rd September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;48574423]Seeing communism in its true form is like observing entropy reversing.[/QUOTE] Except it isn't, because without the need for resources, there really is nothing to be greedy except for maybe power over others. So no, communism would be observable if we could get to a level of society where we are post-scarcity.

With a lot of resources such as food scarcity isn't even a problem. It's entirely about distribution. We have huge excesses of food enough to feed well over the world's population, yet nobody can claim that world hunger has ended.