• Scott Walker survives recall vote, wins by wide margin.
    96 replies, posted
[QUOTE=jordguitar;36226737]It is one and it will probably go to a recount which the state will probably have to pay[/QUOTE] The margins weren't right, so the person who lost will have to pay for the recount.
[QUOTE=Funcoot;36230056]Is it illegal for campaigners to make phone calls to get people to vote?[/QUOTE] nope. in fact it was used by santorum in the (hilarious) michigan primaries by encouraging democrats to go vote against romney so that santorum would win. logic being that santorum would be less likely to win against obama as their justification, and michigan has open primaries (both parties can vote in each primary)
One way or the other, no matter how you look at it, money plays a huge part in this and it's boggling that some people don't think so. I'm not on either side, but money plays a huge part in election results and has for a long, long time. It's silly to deny that.
I'm detached from this whole issue but I saw this comment in the CNN article about this. [QUOTE]Fact - only bargaining for benefits was eliminated - wages are still on the table. Fact - The state not collecting union dues and not requiring union membership for state jobs. Anybody can still join the union if they wish - but they must write the membership checks themselves. Fact - Public service unions were asked to contribute to their own retirement and their own healthcare - just like everybody else Fact - the savings from these steps PREVENTED public employees from being laid off. Fear mongering - ALL unions are under attack - false Fear mongering - Middle class is under attack - false Fear Mongering - wages will fall in Wisconsin - falsle sorry - these are simply facts - indisputable - everything else if simply to heighten fear and emotional reactions. Keep to the facts and deal in reality. [/QUOTE] What's your take on it?
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36230040]That's not a specific figure, that's a man with a stick up his ass citing sensational cases. I want a specific figure you can identify in our budget which was negated by Walker.[/quote] The savings would be on a case by case basis so it's hard to get a specific figure. The savings come from the fact that they don't have to bargain with unions for extraordinary benefits anymore.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;36221226]Unbelievable. Now we know for sure that mountains of corporate money is all it takes to get people to vote against their own interests. Say goodbye to any and all labor rights in Wisconsin.[/QUOTE] Labor rights has gone too far. Union's were made because of shitty working conditions, long hours, and shitty pay. Now there are so many state laws that prevent any of this. The only thing unions are being used for is getting more money out of the state. I know so many teachers that do nothing and get paid 60K a year + benefits. But now they only get 60k + 88% of benfits, and they start riots. I live in Wisconsin and I am glad he won, twice. He did what politicians never do; do what they say. He said he was going to decrease the debt, and he did. Now state workers have to pay a whole 12% of their benefits. My dad has been a sheet metal worker for 30 years, and has to pay 2000 dollars a month to pay for insurance. State workers can handle 12%. The recall was the biggest waste of money. Over ten million dollars wasted because the democrats didn't like a bill he passed. That's NOT how recalls are supposed to be used. Recalls all across the United States are going to change due to the ignorance of the democrats. ‎ "And by 60-to-27 percent, Wisconsin voters in CBS News exit polls said recall elections are only appropriate when there has been official misconduct. That was not the case in Wisconsin, where the argument was really about policies one side didn't like." Walker did nothing wrong, he did what he said he was going to do. The best part, if Walker didn't win, we wouldn't have went running to Madison bitching like a bunch of school girls to get the bill shot down. We would have accepted it, and voted Barrett out in the next election.
[QUOTE=Noble;36233766]The savings would be on a case by case basis so it's hard to get a specific figure. The savings come from the fact that they don't have to bargain with unions for extraordinary benefits anymore.[/QUOTE] These benefits are in the budget when they are paid. It's not as if employees are not on the books because they're unionized. You [I]can[/I] present a figure. I expect you to do so if you wish to be taken seriously. [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=QuikKill;36233882]Labor rights has gone too far. Union's were made because of shitty working conditions, long hours, and shitty pay. Now there are so many state laws that prevent any of this.[/QUOTE] Spoken like a guy who would fire police officers because crime levels were low.
I may disagree with him but he won fair and square, gotta respect that.
I DONT KNOW WHO THSI CUNT IS DONT POST THIS BORING SHIT
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36245190]Spoken like a guy who would fire police officers because crime levels were low.[/QUOTE] That has nothing to do with what I said, did you even understand it?
Right, the senate race for district 21 is being declared too close to call so there is still going to be alot of drama
[QUOTE=QuikKill;36233882]Labor rights has gone too far. Union's were made because of shitty working conditions, long hours, and shitty pay. Now there are so many state laws that prevent any of this. The only thing unions are being used for is getting more money out of the state. [/quote] Ahahahahaha. I can't even respond to this. Have you ever worked a day in your life? Ever worked in a shit job? In hard labor? In some menial shit? Have you ever been fucked by management? Ever had your economic livelihood stolen from you unfairly, or fucked so that management can gain more from you? What about fighting for more benefits where there are none? Is that taking from the state? You do know that America is home to tens of thousands of exploited, underpaid, benefits-free basically slave workers, mostly illegals and the extreme poor, right? I'm sure they get all the protections they need. Hell, even in good states non-illegals get shit on. i.e., my own mother regularly does 9.5 hour shifts and works over 45 hours a week as a waitress with no breaks and no lunch because that's all we can get. That's a violation of labor law, but no one gives a fuck. You bet your sorry fucking ass that unions help the situation. I'm no fan of the huge business union, but I'd rather see the AFL-CIO, Teamsters, etc, over no unions at all. That being said, unions were made because workers wanted to organize and hold dual power against management to improve their conditions and have more control in their work environments. That goal is still the same. [quote]I know so many teachers that do nothing and get paid 60K a year + benefits. But now they only get 60k + 88% of benfits, and they start riots. [/quote] Where in the fuck do teachers get paid 60k? The average teacher salary in WI is 46,000$, which is a fair lower-end salary, but nowhere near 80k, and now thanks to Walker, very few real benefits. In my state it's 50k, which is closer, but with few benefits. I've yet to see a teacher who does nothing and gets paid 60k and benefits. I know of six of my teachers who had extremely shit salaries even with tenure and were working weekend jobs and up to three jobs during the summer. One was literally so poor that he lost 30 pounds in six months because he couldn't afford fucking food and was eating discounted expired pudding from the local grocery store. Yea, he was paid totally fucking well, right? [quote] I live in Wisconsin and I am glad he won, twice. He did what politicians never do; do what they say. He said he was going to decrease the debt, and he did. Now state workers have to pay a whole 12% of their benefits. My dad has been a sheet metal worker for 30 years, and has to pay 2000 dollars a month to pay for insurance. State workers can handle 12%. [/quote] >implying that the majority of people have 2000$. My family hasn't seen 2000$ in income in one month for over 4 years. That's a ridiculous amount to pay for fucking insurance- that should be the cost of a procedure, not insurance. That being said, state worked in this state do have rather good benefits, but those are at the level they should be. If it hadn't been for the fair health insurance that the state gave us, I'd literally be dead right now because we couldn't afford hospital bills for a surprise medical issue. Private insurance is almost always shit, to assume that state workers need to be paying 12% of the cost for the insurance they should have anyway, for everyone, everywhere, is like saying that you need to start taxing people with city water higher because it's better than the quality of unfiltered groundwater that most people have. [quote] The recall was the biggest waste of money. Over ten million dollars wasted because the democrats didn't like a bill he passed. That's NOT how recalls are supposed to be used. Recalls all across the United States are going to change due to the ignorance of the democrats. [/quote] I'll give you this, but considering that from my point of view, you should be able to recall anyone at any time for any reason as long as there's majority approval, I have to agree with this recall. And that's basically what it comes down to. If you have majority approval, it doesn't matter why you're going to recall someone. You can have shit leaders who follow all the rules, but if everyone thinks they're shit, then you get to boot them. ‎ [quote] "And by 60-to-27 percent, Wisconsin voters in CBS News exit polls said recall elections are only appropriate when there has been official misconduct. That was not the case in Wisconsin, where the argument was really about policies one side didn't like." [/quote] See above. [quote] Walker did nothing wrong, he did what he said he was going to do. The best part, if Walker didn't win, we wouldn't have went running to Madison bitching like a bunch of school girls to get the bill shot down. We would have accepted it, and voted Barrett out in the next election.[/QUOTE] Did you seriously just compare the thousands of people risking losing their jobs, their income, their ability to live comfortably so that they could show their distaste for a bill that was going to fuck them in the ass to fix the mistakes of the state government and the federal government who refused to take proper measures to heal the debt "bitching like a bunch of school girls"? Wow. I'll bet that you thought that the Egyptian revolution was a bunch of people bitching about their leader like kids and that they should have sucked it up or some shit, too. [img]http://www.iplanretirement.com/retirementblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/egyptwisconsin1.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;36221226]Unbelievable. Now we know for sure that mountains of corporate money is all it takes to get people to vote against their own interests. Say goodbye to any and all labor rights in Wisconsin.[/QUOTE] I would think this has more to do with the fact that getting a recall vote requires far less signatures than it does to actually recall someone.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635'][img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3664177/emot-words.gif[/img] I'll give you this, but considering that from my point of view, you should be able to recall anyone at any time for any reason as long as there's majority approval, I have to agree with this recall. And that's basically what it comes down to. If you have majority approval, it doesn't matter why you're going to recall someone. You can have shit leaders who follow all the rules, but if everyone thinks they're shit, then you get to boot them. ‎ [img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3664177/emot-words.gif[/img] [/QUOTE] He has set up a criminal defense fund for himself because of what he did during the campaign to become governor. This should explain the john doe investigation: [url]http://www.salon.com/2012/06/01/scott_walkers_john_doe_scandal_explained/[/url] Now the scandal really did not get much attention until after the protests. He also continues to deny that he is under investigation but the only way to open that fund is to be under investigation or being charged with something. There is more that is going to happen with him and if the recall did not take him down then this investigation could.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;36225374]Hey, better than tyranny of the minority man. Also, I bet if the Democrat bloke won this election I would really doubt that you would say it's "tyranning of the majority", but just say something like democracy works or some shit.[/QUOTE] Not really. I was more pointing out that in a system that depends on majority rule, people will inevitably be disappointed at some point when a person who does not represent their interests is elected into office on account of a majority vote. I'd have just the same problem with a person in a minority being elected to rule over people whom he/she does not represent the interests of. It's kind of the major shortcoming of democracy. So no, I'd not be inclined to say that democracy works, because it doesn't. Not at least the way people expect it to.
To be fair, I'd take Walker over Quinn (The IL governor) any day.
You know there is something wrong with him if there is even a recall vote in the first place.
[QUOTE=W00tbeer1;36249621]You know there is something wrong with him if there is even a recall vote in the first place.[/QUOTE] Not really. I can start a recall petition against the President if I wanted to, and I would have no problem getting a million signatures for it. Doesn't mean he's deserving of it.
[QUOTE=Ridge;36249658]Not really. I can start a recall petition against the President if I wanted to, and I would have no problem getting a million signatures for it. Doesn't mean he's deserving of it.[/QUOTE] Considering he's one of 3 governors, I would say its a big deal.
[QUOTE=Ridge;36249658]Not really. I can start a recall petition against the President if I wanted to, and I would have no problem getting a million signatures for it. Doesn't mean he's deserving of it.[/QUOTE] AFAIK, you can't recall the President.
[QUOTE=Ridge;36249658]Not really. I can start a recall petition against the President if I wanted to, and I would have no problem getting a million signatures for it. Doesn't mean he's deserving of it.[/QUOTE] you can't recall the president you dunce do you know anything about politics and government? anything at all?
[QUOTE=Lazor;36250369]you can't recall the president you dunce do you know anything about politics and government? anything at all?[/QUOTE] No, otherwise he would be more respected when coming to political things.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;36248752]Not really. I was more pointing out that in a system that depends on majority rule, people will inevitably be disappointed at some point when a person who does not represent their interests is elected into office on account of a majority vote. I'd have just the same problem with a person in a minority being elected to rule over people whom he/she does not represent the interests of. It's kind of the major shortcoming of democracy. So no, I'd not be inclined to say that democracy works, because it doesn't. Not at least the way people expect it to.[/QUOTE] Any system of government will result in some people not getting their way. Unless every person becomes their own country, the government will result in a majority pushing some rules on a minority. [QUOTE=W00tbeer1;36249621]You know there is something wrong with him if there is even a recall vote in the first place.[/QUOTE] No it doesn't. It means he did something controversial. And the recall vote was stupid anyways, because Walker didn't actually do anything wrong. Recalls are generally reserved for corruption and misconduct, not doing something you don't particularly like. [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] The logic behind your post is the same logic that justifies innocent people in jail. "Well, even if the person is innocent, they probably weren't a good person to begin with since they got convicted."
[QUOTE=Lazor;36250369]you can't recall the president you dunce do you know anything about politics and government? anything at all?[/QUOTE] The point Your head
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;36250973]The point Your head[/QUOTE] i very well got the point but if he's going to say stupid shit then he's going to get called out for it.
[QUOTE=Lazor;36251304]i very well got the point but if he's going to say stupid shit then he's going to get called out for it.[/QUOTE] Your post was still dodging the point.
[QUOTE=Lazor;36251304]i very well got the point [B]but if he's going to say stupid shit then he's going to get called out for it.[/B][/QUOTE] The bolded part contradicts the unbolded part. And if not, then you're simply grabbing for straws.
[QUOTE=Ridge;36249658]Not really. I can start a recall petition against the President if I wanted to, and I would have no problem getting a million signatures for it. Doesn't mean he's deserving of it.[/QUOTE] I'm tempted to say he is deserving of it, but I'm not going to. However, it's worth considering that you might consider him undeserving of a recall, but other people don't.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635']Ahahahahaha. I can't even respond to this. Have you ever worked a day in your life? Ever worked in a shit job? In hard labor? In some menial shit? Have you ever been fucked by management? Ever had your economic livelihood stolen from you unfairly, or fucked so that management can gain more from you? What about fighting for more benefits where there are none? Is that taking from the state? You do know that America is home to tens of thousands of exploited, underpaid, benefits-free basically slave workers, mostly illegals and the extreme poor, right? I'm sure they get all the protections they need. Hell, even in good states non-illegals get shit on. i.e., my own mother regularly does 9.5 hour shifts and works over 45 hours a week as a waitress with no breaks and no lunch because that's all we can get. That's a violation of labor law, but no one gives a fuck. You bet your sorry fucking ass that unions help the situation. I'm no fan of the huge business union, but I'd rather see the AFL-CIO, Teamsters, etc, over no unions at all. [/QUOTE] Actually yea I do work 7 days out of the week, working two jobs to pay for my education, have you? I started working at age 14 as a cashier in McDonalds. Five years later, after many interviews and let downs, I am now an engineering intern making great money for my age, and I am a machinist on the weekends. Yes, I get screwed my management and have to do menial and repetitive tasks that will bore the hell out of anyone. Don't even pull that bullshit card. At age 19, I work harder than most adults. I work for what I want, and pay my share of health insurance. I have nothing to say about illegal immigrants, that is for another debate. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635'] That being said, unions were made because workers wanted to organize and hold dual power against management to improve their conditions and have more control in their work environments. That goal is still the same. [/QUOTE] The goal is not the same when my dads company has to give his workers their annually raise that will put his business into the ground. If his shop was union, he would not have a shop. To top that, he pays 50% of the health insurance for all of his employees. Almost five times as much as the state workers have to pay. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635'] Where in the fuck do teachers get paid 60k? The average teacher salary in WI is 46,000$, which is a fair lower-end salary, but nowhere near 80k, and now thanks to Walker, very few real benefits. In my state it's 50k, which is closer, but with few benefits. I've yet to see a teacher who does nothing and gets paid 60k and benefits. I know of six of my teachers who had extremely shit salaries even with tenure and were working weekend jobs and up to three jobs during the summer. One was literally so poor that he lost 30 pounds in six months because he couldn't afford fucking food and was eating discounted expired pudding from the local grocery store. Yea, he was paid totally fucking well, right? [/QUOTE] Is that average with benefits? The average salary of teachers in my county is little over 50K + benefits. In fact, my last high school, a ten year teacher was paid 65k + 30k in a year. I know this, because he is a good friend of mine. Clearly there is two ends of this spectrum, you've seem the poor end, and I have seem the rich end. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635'] >implying that the majority of people have 2000$. My family hasn't seen 2000$ in income in one month for over 4 years. That's a ridiculous amount to pay for fucking insurance- that should be the cost of a procedure, not insurance. That being said, state worked in this state do have rather good benefits, but those are at the level they should be. If it hadn't been for the fair health insurance that the state gave us, I'd literally be dead right now because we couldn't afford hospital bills for a surprise medical issue. Private insurance is almost always shit, to assume that state workers need to be paying 12% of the cost for the insurance they should have anyway, for everyone, everywhere, is like saying that you need to start taxing people with city water higher because it's better than the quality of unfiltered groundwater that most people have. [/QUOTE] Did you miss the 30 years part? He has been a loyal employee for over 30 years and now is running it. For those 30 years, he worked 60+ hours a week. I had a childhood without a father because he was too busy putting food on the table and a roof over my head. He is the epitome of a blue collar worker. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635'] I'll give you this, but considering that from my point of view, you should be able to recall anyone at any time for any reason as long as there's majority approval, I have to agree with this recall. And that's basically what it comes down to. If you have majority approval, it doesn't matter why you're going to recall someone. You can have shit leaders who follow all the rules, but if everyone thinks they're shit, then you get to boot them. [/QUOTE]‎ He didn't think he was the shit, he was doing what he said. Just because everyone hates him, which not everyone does (only 46% do). Since you're all about majority. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36247635'] Did you seriously just compare the thousands of people risking losing their jobs, their income, their ability to live comfortably so that they could show their distaste for a bill that was going to fuck them in the ass to fix the mistakes of the state government and the federal government who refused to take proper measures to heal the debt "bitching like a bunch of school girls"? Wow. I'll bet that you thought that the Egyptian revolution was a bunch of people bitching about their leader like kids and that they should have sucked it up or some shit, too. [/QUOTE] My economics teacher in high school showed us his salary and how much he had to pay for his benefits. He makes 48k a year + benefits. He had to pay about 4,000 dollars a year for his benefits. 300 a month is sure a lot cheaper than 2,000. I do apologize for the bitching like girls part. I was just in a rage and the misinformation in the previous posts. You cannot compare Egypt to Wisconsin. This should get moved to mass debate for a better discussion. It gets too buried in here.
can someone tell me what these fantastic union demands are? is it being paid enough to put food on the table or what?
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