• Parents Who Shun Vaccines Tend To Cluster, Boosting Children's Risk
    179 replies, posted
Conclusion drawn by this article misses the blindingly obvious. This isn't anti-vaccers clustering together, its anti-vaccers talking to and influencing others around them into not vaccinating their own children. Anti-vaccers are poison.
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[QUOTE=uitham;46986068]some people still think things are toxic because of the substance, and not the quantity of that substance?[/QUOTE] Fun fact, at the highest allowed level of fluoride in US. drinking water you would have to consume over 14 gallons of water within the time frame of about two hours for your body to be exposed to enough natural fluoride to be considered even a moderate medical problem. Yet people are still against fluoridation in water on the basis of it being toxic. Fun-er fact: there are places in the U.S. where fluoride is naturally present in water at higher levels than the EPA allows, and plants have to remove fluoride from the water before it can be put to the tap. Point being, you would drown on a cellular level before you died of fluoride toxicity. People are just [I]that[/I] stupid.
We're making such social progress, it's so sad to see us still regressing in some situations.
[QUOTE=Megadave;46979495]I'd like to believe anyones mind can be changed. That, besides chemical changes in the brain, anyone can be convinced.[/QUOTE] There's people who will simply never consider another viewpoint. The more you try to reason with them the more bullshit they spew, and if you get even the slightest bit aggressive they wall themselves off. Anti-vaxxers are case-in-point for that sort of mindset, they simply will not listen to a single word in favor of vaccines.
[QUOTE=Megadave;46979453]So you guys like to just shit on anti-vaxxers, instead of trying to convince them with vital information. You people are just as pathetic as the anti-vaxxers.[/QUOTE] Ever tried arguing with one? I live with one. It's quite literally impossible because they are completely closed to the possibility of being wrong. Anything including anecdotal evidence that backs up their claims is taken as absolute truth while scientific studies proving them wrong is considered biased or dishonest. It's the same sort of shit as trying to convince any conspiracy theorist they're wrong. The possibility just simply does not exist in their mind and arguing from a rational and logical standpoint doesn't work because they are not arguing from a rational or logical viewpoint themselves. They're arguing from an emotional standpoint that ends with them selectively ignoring anything that doesn't back up their views, essentially creating an echo chamber. [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=AlexConnor;46997472]Conclusion drawn by this article misses the blindingly obvious. This isn't anti-vaccers clustering together, its anti-vaccers talking to and influencing others around them into not vaccinating their own children. Anti-vaccers are poison.[/QUOTE] It's more like people with similar beliefs band together which is true no matter the subcommunity.
[QUOTE=Megadave;46980479]Ok a little less pathetic, but still pathetic[/QUOTE] you are the last person who should be accusing others of being pathetic
If you want to change their mind, you can't argue with them, science has shown that anti-vaxers get the same feeling when someone argues religion with them, they immediately get hostile because they think it's part of their moral center. You have to simply discuss it with them, point out flaws as you see them (by generally just repeating their arguments back to them. The point is that they'll begin seeing the flaws themselves, and it will eventually break down for them.
I do hope some of you realize that some don't take vaccines because they can't. Like most of my family has had severe reactions to the substances used to preserve the vaccines. (caused a 104F fever for a week in my brother) I'm not against the concept of vaccines at all. They can be very helpful, but due to the requirements mass production, other things need to be added that my family's bodys can't tolerate, which result in some really nasty side effects. Which is why I think it's really dumb that people go ahead and call people who don't give their kids vaccines evil. If your child had a severe fever from getting them, I think you'd drop them as well. (I know a fair few amount of people who have dropped the vaccines due to this and, frankly, the risk of me dieing in a car crash is higher than me dieing of measles, so I don't really sweat it.) Also, you shouldn't really worry about me, because if you have the vaccine, great, you're covered. I pose no threat to you. What you should really be worried about the people with the vaccines getting the disease they're vaccinated from. Because they are the ones with the virus that managed to circumvent the vaccine.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47002665]I do hope some of you realize that some don't take vaccines because they can't. Like most of my family has had severe reactions to the substances used to preserve the vaccines. (caused a 104F fever for a week in my brother) I'm not against the concept of vaccines at all. They can be very helpful, but due to the requirements mass production, other things need to be added that my family's bodys can't tolerate, which result in some really nasty side effects. Which is why I think it's really dumb that people go ahead and call people who don't give their kids vaccines evil. If your child had a severe fever from getting them, I think you'd drop them as well. (I know a fair few amount of people who have dropped the vaccines due to this and, frankly, the risk of me dieing in a car crash is higher than me dieing of measles, so I don't really sweat it.) Also, you shouldn't really worry about me, because if you have the vaccine, great, you're covered. I pose no threat to you. What you should really be worried about the people with the vaccines getting the disease they're vaccinated from. Because they are the ones with the virus that managed to circumvent the vaccine.[/QUOTE] i am very certain that when people say "antivaxxers are dumb, vaccinate your fucking kids" it comes with an unstated "*don't vaccinate your kids if they are medically unable to safely get the vaccine". i am certain that nobody here advocates vaccination if the child is not healthy enough for it. it isn't about people being mad at some adults not vaccinating themselves, it is that people are choosing to not protect their own children, who have zero ability to choose for themselves without toxic influence from their parents. you should actually be even more mad at anti-vaxxers if you have people in your family who can't vaccinate safely because by them choosing to not get their kids stuck with the needle, they're putting all of them at a higher risk.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47002745]i am very certain that when people say "antivaxxers are dumb, vaccinate your fucking kids" it comes with an unstated "*don't vaccinate your kids if they are medically unable to safely get the vaccine". i am certain that nobody here advocates vaccination if the child is not healthy enough for it. it isn't about people being mad at some adults not vaccinating themselves, it is that people are choosing to not protect their own children, who have zero ability to choose for themselves without toxic influence from their parents. you should actually be even more mad at anti-vaxxers if you have people in your family who can't vaccinate safely because by them choosing to not get their kids stuck with the needle, they're putting all of them at a higher risk.[/QUOTE] Risk would be pretty much the same as before the vaccines and as I said, I will not likely die from getting measles or chicken pox. I think it should be up to people whether or not they want it. Besides, anyone and anything can spread disease, even if you have a vaccine. And in my eyes, being clean, and eating healthy is the best preventative measure from diseases. Also letting anti-bodies come naturally.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47002785]Besides, anyone and anything can spread disease, even if you have a vaccine.[/QUOTE] This is outright false. Vaccinated people eradicate the virus and can't carry it, and thus can't spread the disease. This is why it's important that everyone who are able-bodied be vaccinated; so that people who can't have less chance of coming into contact with it.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47002665]I do hope some of you realize that some don't take vaccines because they can't. Like most of my family has had severe reactions to the substances used to preserve the vaccines. (caused a 104F fever for a week in my brother) I'm not against the concept of vaccines at all. They can be very helpful, but due to the requirements mass production, other things need to be added that my family's bodys can't tolerate, which result in some really nasty side effects. Which is why I think it's really dumb that people go ahead and call people who don't give their kids vaccines evil. If your child had a severe fever from getting them, I think you'd drop them as well. (I know a fair few amount of people who have dropped the vaccines due to this and, frankly, the risk of me dieing in a car crash is higher than me dieing of measles, so I don't really sweat it.) Also, you shouldn't really worry about me, because if you have the vaccine, great, you're covered. I pose no threat to you. What you should really be worried about the people with the vaccines getting the disease they're vaccinated from. Because they are the ones with the virus that managed to circumvent the vaccine.[/QUOTE] The thing about vaccines is that they also protect those without vaccination. Assuming the unvaccinated crowd is small because it is composed only of people who cannot get vaccinated due to legit medical reasons, they still will be protected because almost everyone else is vaccinated, so disease cannot spread easily. the Anti-vax crowd is skewing those numbers though. By having a bunch more unprotected people, disease now has a foot hold and can spread far easier. People who refuse to vaccinate for no valid reason arent only a threat to themselves, but also to people who cannot get vaccinated, like your brother.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47002785]And in my eyes, being clean, and eating healthy is the best preventative measure from diseases. Also letting anti-bodies come naturally.[/QUOTE] you don't seem to understand how antibodies work. the only way they come about naturally is if you're exposed to the disease. your body doesn't automatically know how to fight them. imagine your immune system is an army. armies can fight pretty well against enemies they've fought before. but, when an alien force that they've never seen before comes in, they'll get their asses kicked. antibodies are basically your body's way of adapting to this new threat, the army adding a new weapon to their arsenel, one specifically designed to fight this new enemy. now, it can take several weeks from first infection to antibody production. for many diseases, this isn't a problem since they're not deadly enough, but for some, you can easily be dead before your body knows what the fuck is going on. this is why vaccines are important, it acts intel about the enemy before you're in a fight for your life against it.
Vaccines need to be made legally mandatory and any parents who does not vaccine their children needs to be heavily punished by the legal system. Maybe give them one chance by fining them and giving them a reminder, but one more refusal and they lose the kid to social services for being inept parents.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47002785]Risk would be pretty much the same as before the vaccines and as I said, I will not likely die from getting measles or chicken pox. I think it should be up to people whether or not they want it. Besides, anyone and anything can spread disease, even if you have a vaccine. And in my eyes, being clean, and eating healthy is the best preventative measure from diseases. Also letting anti-bodies come naturally.[/QUOTE] You literally cannot be clean with measels its one of the most contagious airborne diseases that lingers in the air for hours Also anti-bodies don't come naturally against stuff you don't catch, the stuff we vaccinate from is stuff you don't want to catch
Anti-vaxxers are literally scum. They're choosing to let kids die and suffer, for no reason other than their beliefs. Disgusting excuses for human beings.
Being an antivaxer is almost like being religious you chose to follow faith instead of reason or logic.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47002785]Risk would be pretty much the same as before the vaccines and as I said, I will not likely die from getting measles or chicken pox.[/QUOTE] Sure, those vaccines will save your children (and yourself) a massive inconvenience, to say the least. However, what of diseases like tetanus, polio or hpv? Your body will not be able to fight that off. Dying an agonizing death because you got a scratch from a rusty nail; or having your cervix removed in your early twenties because the massive risk of ovarian cancer due to HPV infection may have been a thing in the past: but they have no place anywhere if they can be prevented.
[QUOTE=Brandy92;46979369]Is this technically natural selection, as they're killing themselves off slowly but surely?[/QUOTE] The problem is that stupidity isn't simply hereditary but mostly cultural. Those kids who will probably die because of a lack of vaccination will never have had the opportunity of realizing what kind of dipshits their parents were so they can move away from them and then cut-off all contact.
I was always told that vaccines made the Virus in general grow far more deadlier or something along those lines, is this true?
[QUOTE=puppy156;47006371]I was always told that vaccines made the Virus in general grow far more deadlier or something along those lines, is this true?[/QUOTE] If this was true why would we even use vaccines in the first place?
What's even worse is most if not all anti-vaxers come from the first generation to be fully immunized against smallpox and polio leading to the total eradication of small pox and the close eradication of polio because of it Its like someone who got a heart transplant not allowing their kids to be organ donors
[QUOTE=_Axel;47002865]This is outright false. Vaccinated people eradicate the virus and can't carry it, and thus can't spread the disease. This is why it's important that everyone who are able-bodied be vaccinated; so that people who can't have less chance of coming into contact with it.[/QUOTE] They don't harbor it in their body, but they can still transmit it if they've been around it. And vaccinated people can still get the disease. [QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47002926]you don't seem to understand how antibodies work. the only way they come about naturally is if you're exposed to the disease. your body doesn't automatically know how to fight them. imagine your immune system is an army. armies can fight pretty well against enemies they've fought before. but, when an alien force that they've never seen before comes in, they'll get their asses kicked. antibodies are basically your body's way of adapting to this new threat, the army adding a new weapon to their arsenel, one specifically designed to fight this new enemy. now, it can take several weeks from first infection to antibody production. for many diseases, this isn't a problem since they're not deadly enough, but for some, you can easily be dead before your body knows what the fuck is going on. this is why vaccines are important, it acts intel about the enemy before you're in a fight for your life against it.[/QUOTE] It isn't a cure-all though. People can still get infected with the disease, and you're exposing a healthy person to the disease as well as the preservatives because of the risk that they *might* get it. (I've known people who have gotten the disease from the vaccine) [QUOTE=Kirth;47006187]Sure, those vaccines will save your children (and yourself) a massive inconvenience, to say the least. However, what of diseases like tetanus, polio or hpv? Your body will not be able to fight that off. Dying an agonizing death because you got a scratch from a rusty nail; or having your cervix removed in your early twenties because the massive risk of ovarian cancer due to HPV infection may have been a thing in the past: but they have no place anywhere if they can be prevented.[/QUOTE] People are more likely to get and die of cancer than of any of those diseases combined. Some people simply don't want to put their kids at risk to the virus even at a weaker state. (Especially infants while their immune system and body is still developing. Why put your newborn child at risk of harm or disease when you're not likely to get a lot of the diseases and even less likely to die from it? Also money.) Basically, I think vaccination is okay, but it should NOT be given to young children, who will suffer the most if they're given a bad batch or they can't quite take it. Especially in the volumes they're given in.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47007761] People are more likely to get and die of cancer than of any of those diseases combined. Some people simply don't want to put their kids at risk to the virus even at a weaker state. (Especially infants while their immune system and body is still developing. Why put your newborn child at risk of harm or disease when you're not likely to get a lot of the diseases and even less likely to die from it? Also money.)[/QUOTE] I hope you do realize how drastically your likelihood of getting these diseases would increase if everyone thought the same way you did and didn't get vaccinated? It's because of the vaccinations that you can even say how unlikely it is for you to get these diseases.
[QUOTE=Jitterz;47007785]I hope you do realize how drastically your likelihood of getting these diseases would increase if everyone thought the same way you did and didn't get vaccinated? It's because of the vaccinations that you can even say how unlikely it is for you to get these diseases.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus#cite_note-Loz2012-4"]272,000 in 1990[/URL] for tetanus, which is quite low for a disease and the population. ([URL="http://www.rmiia.org/auto/traffic_safety/Cost_of_crashes.asp"]more likely to be injured in a car wreck[/URL]) HPV is transmitted through uh [URL="http://www.cdc.gov/hpv/whatishpv.html"]sexual contact[/URL], so if I don't do any of that my risk is extremely low. Even then, the rates are extremely [URL="http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/"]low 12,600[/URL] And again, with Polio rates were averaging [URL="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm"]35,000 in the 1950's[/URL] which is about the same rate as [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year"]deaths in a car crash[/URL] Quite frankly I'm more likely to die or get injured if I got in a car and drove to the store than I am of getting and dieing from these diseases.
[QUOTE=Xubs;47007891]because of vaccines and modern medicine, yes[/QUOTE] Except the statistics I linked were rates either before, or near the beginning of the vaccines.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47007921]Except the statistics I linked were rates either before, or near the beginning of the vaccines.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus_vaccine[/url] [quote]Tetanus has become uncommon in the United States, with an average of 29 reported cases per year from 1996 through 2009. Nearly all cases of tetanus are among those who have never received a tetanus vaccine, or adults who don't stay up to date on their 10-year booster shots.[/quote] Just stop man, seriously there's no reason to not get vaccinated for diseases and shit common in your area of the world or shit that could be a feasible threat to lives of those around you and those more vulnerable, if you disagree then frankly you're risking lives for vague reasons.
[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47007963][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus_vaccine[/url] Just stop man, seriously there's no reason to not get vaccinated for diseases and shit common in your area of the world or shit that could be a feasible threat to lives of those around you and those more vulnerable, if you disagree then frankly you're risking lives for vague reasons.[/QUOTE] I'm not denying its effectiveness, I'm just saying that people who choose not to be vaccinated shouldn't be called "scum who spread disease" because they really aren't. If the child wants a vaccine then he can get it. But if the mother feels that it's better to skip the vaccines due to risks of early exposure and potential harm shouldn't be slandered for doing so
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;47007761] People are more likely to get and die of cancer than of any of those diseases combined. Some people simply don't want to put their kids at risk to the virus even at a weaker state. (Especially infants while their immune system and body is still developing. [/QUOTE] Well of course, because in general those people are vaccinated against those diseases. Please, please stop making things up. [QUOTE=Stiffy360;47007761] Why put your newborn child at risk of harm or disease when you're not likely to get a lot of the diseases and even less likely to die from it? Also money.) [/QUOTE] They also call polio "infantile paralysis"; go figure when in their lives people need the vaccine.
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