Democratic lawmakers introduce bill to ban conversion therapy nationwide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Thlis;52169918]Not to be a pedant but that's not really true according to your reasoning. It's not about choice it's about being born with a sexual orientation. [/QUOTE] Which is stating the human nature theory is valid which runs counter to many concepts social justice and political correctness is based upon. Either a person is born a certain way or its tabla rasa. Which is it? [editline]30th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52169923]No it isn't.[/QUOTE] So you saying political correctness isn't a form of social engineering? It is not an attempt to correct, control or erase unwanted traits?

Guriosity, you're stating that it is social engineering. Is it not on you, as the claimant to prove that it is in fact a form of social engineering and not just your "Claim" that it is? Oh, yes, that's right, it [B]is[/B] your job to prove that.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52169938]Guriosity, you're stating that it is social engineering. Is it not on you, as the claimant to prove that it is in fact a form of social engineering and not just your "Claim" that it is? Oh, yes, that's right, it [B]is[/B] your job to prove that.[/QUOTE] It is not an attempt to correct, control or erase "unwanted" traits? Conversion therapy is not an attempt to do so?

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169930]Which is stating the human nature theory is valid which runs counter to many concepts social justice and political correctness is based upon. Either a person is born a certain way or its tabla rasa. Which is it? [editline]30th April 2017[/editline] So you saying political correctness isn't a form of social engineering?[/QUOTE] So now you've moved the goal posts massively to "Political correctness" from "shock therapy" in your words "pick one' [editline]30th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Guriosity;52169941]It is not an attempt to correct, control or erase "unwanted" traits? Conversion therapy is not an attempt to do so?[/QUOTE] So it being that instantly makes it a form of social engineering...? Do you even know what social engineering is? It sure isn't "lets hook people up to electrical currents to literally shock parts of their brain into a state of disrepair" but please, it's your job to show that.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52169945]So now you've moved the goal posts massively to "Political correctness" from "shock therapy" in your words "pick one'[/QUOTE] Both are forms of social engineering to erase what society's deems "undesirable traits". For it to work, the concepts of tabla rasa must be valid. Which means the concept that a person is born that way is invalid. Yet you are saying in one case they are born that way, but in another case humanity is lacking an innate nature. If you are against conversion therapy, (which is a form of social engineering) then you are against all forms of social engineering which are designed to torture people for having an innate nature. Please tell me which is true? If humans are born with an innate nature which is cruel to suppress and squash, then all forms of social engineering to do so should be banned (including conversion therapy). This innate nature instead should be re directed for a healthier expression. If you are for political correctness, you are saying humans do not have an innate nature, that they choose to act in "unwanted ways" and thus all forms of harsh social engineering should be allowed (including conservation therapy) in order to suppress those traits.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169919]Read the statement. Social justice is big believer in social engineering. Conversion therapy is a form of social engineering. If you are against conversion therapy, you are saying all forms of social engineering to "Correct" their innate nature is wrong and cruel. Including political correctness.[/QUOTE] No, you're not, that doesn't even make any sense. That's like saying "well if you don't like tomatoes that must mean you think all vegetables are bad".

[QUOTE=simkas;52169980]No, you're not, that doesn't even make any sense. That's like saying "well if you don't like tomatoes that must mean you think all vegetables are bad".[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] If humans are born with an innate nature which is cruel to suppress and squash, then all forms of social engineering to do so should be banned (including conversion therapy). This innate nature instead should be re directed for a healthier expression. If you are for political correctness, you are saying humans do not have an innate nature, that they choose to act in "unwanted ways" and thus all forms of harsh social engineering should be allowed (including conservation therapy) in order to suppress those traits. [/QUOTE] What I am saying is if you think people are born gay, thus it is wrong to punish and torture them for their innate nature, then any social engineering which causes harm by suppressing their nature to a person is wrong too. Which means it would be kinder and more compassionate to redirect these nature which generate positives for the whole of society. Not erase them, not squash them, not punish or abuse the person for how they are born. To do the latter would be under the guidance of the invalid assumption for tabla rasa or "they chose to to be that way". I am saying it might be better to re direct how people are for a higher good.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169987]What I am saying is if you think people are born gay, thus it is wrong to punish and torture them for their innate nature, then any social engineering which causes harm by suppressing their nature to a person is wrong too. [/QUOTE] Again, no it isn't. You're just saying that punishing and torturing people because they're different is wrong because you're [i]punishing and torturing them[/i]

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169955]Both are forms of social engineering to erase what society's deems "undesirable traits". For it to work, the concepts of tabla rasa must be valid. Which means the concept that a person is born that way is invalid. Yet you are saying in one case they are born that way, but in another case humanity is lacking an innate nature.[/QUOTE] You keep saying this, but have yet to do [B]anything[/B] to show it to be true. Not to mention, you're presuming the views of an entire "ideological group" and using generalizations to do so. How exactly is it social engineering and not say, torture, which it shares many qualities with? [QUOTE]If you are against conversion therapy, (which is a form of social engineering) then you are against all forms of social engineering which are designed to torture people for having an innate nature. [/QUOTE] Why does this false dichotomy make [B]any[/B] sense? "If it's not this one, it's this extreme opposite". No, no, no. Fuck no. That's not how things work. Stop drawing false dichotomies. [QUOTE]Please tell me which is true?[/QUOTE] no. [QUOTE]If humans are born with an innate nature which is cruel to suppress and squash, then all forms of social engineering to do so should be banned (including conversion therapy). This innate nature instead should be re directed for a healthier expression. If you are for political correctness, you are saying humans do not have an innate nature, that they choose to act in "unwanted ways" and thus all forms of harsh social engineering should be allowed (including conservation therapy) in order to suppress those traits.[/QUOTE] What does this even mean? Think for one second about what you're saying. Any form of "Social engineering" meaning, what? Conversations are "Social engineering" so, now what you're saying as another shift of the goal posts is "If you disagree with conversion therapy, you disagree with the social nature of humanity" You know what? Nope.

[QUOTE=Louis;52168883]Therapy should help them come to terms and accept it since it is an irrefutable part of yourself and to merely hide it and live a miserable lie is significantly worse[/QUOTE] Okay, to all the people upvoting this, what exactly is the difference between this argument being applied to being straight/gay vs being male/female? If a person decides of their own volition that they feel more comfortable being straight/gay/male/female, and if ethical treatment is available, then what moral argument can you present against this?

[QUOTE=Thlis;52170012]Okay, to all the people upvoting this, what exactly is the difference between this argument being applied to being straight/gay vs being male/female? If a person decides of their own volition that they feel more comfortable being straight/gay/male/female, and if ethical treatment is available, then what moral argument can you present against this?[/QUOTE] People can be pressured or manipulated into it. Marketing is great example of this. Ever buy any thing you didnt want or need after exposure to some sort of ad? If it became fashionable to get conversion therapy to end being gay to "fit in" that could lead the person to self harm. I am more for accepting how the world and people are and redirecting to a more healthier end for both the individual and society as a whole. [editline]30th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52170005]conversation[/QUOTE] conversion not conversation. My mistake.

[QUOTE=Guriosity;52169862]Why? If a person is for social justice and supports this passing, they are invalidating the rest of their ideology. Conversion therapy is based on the idea a person can be changed via social engineering (in this case shock therapy) and a person chooses to be gay or not. Opponents of conversion therapy are stating gay people are born that way. The entire premise of social justice (including political correctness) is based on the idea people are not born a certain way. Its based on the tabula rasa (blank slate) concept and thus can be corrected via social engineering methods. If one says one is born gay and must end conversion therapy, they are saying tabula rasa is false, thus saying the entire premise social justice and political correctness is based on is false as well. Pick one.[/QUOTE] This is the biggest stretch I've seen since the Olympic gymnastics competitions. Conversion "therapy" is not social engineering: it is quack medical science. Homosexuality is not a product of social conditions: it is [I]actual[/I] medical science. Homosexuals are born as homosexuals. You can no more change somebody's sexuality through "therapy" than you can somebody's height. Conversion therapy for homosexuals is akin to emotionally torturing tall people until they become short. No matter how many times you them they are immoral, evil, shameful, and living in sin for being tall, their bones aren't going to shrink -- they're just going to start hating themselves. Same goes for homosexuals. Recognizing that simple truth is not hypocrisy. So, your "tabula rasa" argument is fucking absurd to say the least. The argument that "nobody is born a certain way" relates to social conditions, not biological conditions. Growing up poor in a desperate environment can lead to criminal behavior, drug dependencies, etc. Your social environment has no bearing on whether or not you are gay, however. Where a homosexual person's social environment does come into play is in their sense of self acceptance. Negative social factors, such as conversion therapy, lead to increased rates of depression, anxiety, emotional disorders, suicide, self-esteem issues, etc. Positive social factors reduce them by normalizing homosexuality and removing the sickening social stigma that has been placed upon it by the religious right. It's as simple as that. [I]"Invalidating the entire ideology of social justice."[/I] lmao, give me a break