Teacher is hired, then immediately fired from school due to visible tattoos
287 replies, posted
Yes take the low hanging fruit of my argument.
My disagreement comes from the fact I'm a committed, hard working person who enjoys marijuana, tattoos, piercings, and drinking and according to your study there this isn't true and I'm actually a terrible worker.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46333008]Yes take the low hanging fruit of my argument.
My disagreement comes from the fact I'm a committed, hard working person who enjoys marijuana, tattoos, piercings, and drinking and according to your study there this isn't true and I'm actually a terrible worker.[/QUOTE]
So you're trying to disprove a study with an anecdote?
The argument isn't one of absolution, but of generalities, which are absolutely essential when hiring new employees because of the inherent risk involved.
You say the criminal behaviour is the real important element there, but isn't there a bit of a feedback loop built around that? People with tattoos find work harder to get and this more likely to require some criminal work due to the stigma placed upon them?
And if it's the real important element why do you need to link those other things to being a bad worker as well except for your potential bias?
[editline]26th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;46333011]So you're trying to disprove a study with an anecdote?
The argument isn't one of absolution, but of generalities, which are absolutely essential when hiring new employees because of the inherent risk involved.[/QUOTE]
Well I'm not looking for a study that supports me at this very minute, I doubt I'd find one.
If the criminal element is so important as you say, run a background check. Wow.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46333021]You say the criminal behaviour is the real important element there, but isn't there a bit of a feedback loop built around that? People with tattoos find work harder to get and this more likely to require some criminal work due to the stigma placed upon them?
And if it's the real important element why do you need to link those other things to being a bad worker as well except for your potential bias?[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that it was the only important element, you did. I allowed it to pass because the ensuing argument about the rest would be needless when criminal behavior was enough on it's own. Since that doesn't seem to be enough, here goes:
1) Having many sexual partners is also related to criminal behavior (not to mention the traits that are inherently associated with it):
"Empirical research has revealed a positive relationship between number of sex partners and involvement in antisocial behaviors. Most attempts to explain this association have taken an evolutionary perspective and argued that the same traits (e.g., impulsiveness, shortsightedness, and aggressiveness) that are related to a large number of sex partners are also related to criminal involvement." - ([URL]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19350760[/URL])
2) Marijuana use is related to antisocial behavior:
"Our results imply that cannabis use is positively and significantly related to antisocial behavior among young adults, and general strain and social bond theories cannot fully explain our findings. As expected, the estimated association with antisocial behavior is stronger for more frequent cannabis users." - ([URL]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/soin.12027/abstract[/URL])
[editline]26th October 2014[/editline]
A feedback loop would be very unlikely when all the actions in question are similarly related to the conclusion. It makes more sense that a common cause leads to them all, namely, the character of the person in question. (i.e. Generally, the kind of person who gets a lot of tattoos, has a lot of sexual partners, smokes marijuana, etc. is the same kind of person who partakes in antisocial/criminal behavior)
If you buck that trend, then good for you! But the stats show that they are most definitely related.
If i'm bucking that trend, I feel like other people must be. I'm not special. I'm not the only bucking that trend by any means.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46333115]If i'm bucking that trend, I feel like other people must be. I'm not special. I'm not the only bucking that trend by any means.[/QUOTE]
It points to inherently higher risk of the unknown. That's it. Not absolute certainty. Why take that risk, as an employer, when you don't have to?
[QUOTE=wraithcat;46332056]The thing you need to realise - people who are getting tats are fully aware of what others thing of tats and still get them.
This isn't discriminatory. You have a full choice in getting one or not as well as the type. As such, once you do this, completely willing choice, you can't really expect people to not care one way or another.
Imagine, to dig the fashion choice again, someone who goes to an interview for a legal position. But he won't wear professional clothes, but something very casual or even worse - something punky.
That person is making a conscious choice of how he or she approaches this interview. Getting a tat and wearing it visible is also a conscious choice.[/QUOTE]
I was aware when I was getting tattoo's and piercings. I agree you must make the concious decision. I still do not agree with the way they are thought of.
Also in relation to the whole clothes do make the man ideal you've bought up.
To be honest. I couldn't care less about the way say. My lawyer dresses. I only need that lawyer for his wits and knowledge and skill in the field of which he works in. Clothes would make no difference to his skills. I'm sure to many others it would make a profound impact on their perception of the person in question. To me I couldn't care less.
Although I understand that people also have assumptions and preconceptions of things also related to the clothes. And I disagree with that just as much as I disagree with the assumptions about tattoos.
I wish I had teachers like that.
[editline]26th October 2014[/editline]
That makes me think about creating a super edgy "Rock-n-Roll" school.
I would be the director and I would hire every good teacher fired from other schools due to standing out in some way.
It would be the most metal school because every teacher would be cool and rad and we would play metal and rock over the school stereo system.
[QUOTE=Jamie1992GSC;46333455]I was aware when I was getting tattoo's and piercings. I agree you must make the concious decision. I still do not agree with the way they are thought of.
Also in relation to the whole clothes do make the man ideal you've bought up.
To be honest. I couldn't care less about the way say. My lawyer dresses. I only need that lawyer for his wits and knowledge and skill in the field of which he works in. Clothes would make no difference to his skills. I'm sure to many others it would make a profound impact on their perception of the person in question. To me I couldn't care less.
Although I understand that people also have assumptions and preconceptions of things also related to the clothes. And I disagree with that just as much as I disagree with the assumptions about tattoos.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, sure - once you get to know your lawyer or have very good references for him then you might consider the way he dresses to be less important. But on a first impression? also the fact this might not be important to you, it will be important for quite a lot of people. Why else do many places have a dress code in the first place. It's not be a brutal tyrant that enforces how you dress. It's to build a certain impression, set up a certain mindset and a bunch of other things.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46333115]If i'm bucking that trend, I feel like other people must be. I'm not special. I'm not the only bucking that trend by any means.[/QUOTE]
sorry to say - but there is a difference between on average and absolutely. You can easily buck the trend. But if you analyse the population as a whole, there will be certain trends that emerge. Imagine it like pop music.
The majority will follow a certain trend, as the popular music appeals to them. But there will always be outliers and those can be a significant portion of the population as well.
But even if it was close to something like 55% 45% an employer might consider it significant. Likewise society will consider it to have a certain meaning.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;46333825]Yeah, sure - once you get to know your lawyer or have very good references for him then you might consider the way he dresses to be less important. But on a first impression? also the fact this might not be important to you, it will be important for quite a lot of people. Why else do many places have a dress code in the first place. It's not be a brutal tyrant that enforces how you dress. It's to build a certain impression, set up a certain mindset and a bunch of other things.[/QUOTE]
I refer to my post awhile back.
It's only a thing because people think like that. And I see no justification other than it's been drilled into peoples heads that people must conform or look a specific way just to be able to act or be a certain way, be it the way they themselves act, or the way they come across in a professional manner.
If you lined up 5 lawyers all but one of whom dressed in suits, and the "odd one out" in punk rock clothes or some other trivial cosmetic demeanour. I would ask to see his qualifications and skills no more or less than I would the other 4. To me clothes make no difference because I simply don't think in such a manner.
If the guy was the best at his job. I would take him for my defense regardless if he wears a suit and has no ink, or if he had tattoo's head to toe and piercings and wore punk rock clothes or the likes. I want that person to fill a role and to fill that role well. The ideal that a person not in a suit and with tattoo's cannot fill that role is rather stupid. Seeing as knowledge is not retained in your skin or your clothes, it's in your mind.
I can sit at my desk and work on my 3D Modelling all day in a variety of clothing and it would make absolutely no difference to the ability of which I can model. So why would a lawyer not wearing a suit affect his ability to provide his services in a courtroom?
The Anwser? It doesn't. It just boils down to the fact that people THINK that clothes, tattoos, piercings and other trivial things suddenly dictate your knowledge or abilities. In essence. I would take someone to fill a role I needed, whatever that would be. (Doctor, Lawyer, Texture Artist, Programmer, Surgeon etc) simply by their skills and experience. Clothes, and personal body edits are of no concern nor subject in the terms of choosing what I need to fill that role. The only reason massive companies and such do this. Is like I said. The majority of the populace are so caught up in that sort of ideal, that it simply has to be done to try and appease the masses and those of which make up a consumer base for a buisness or commercial entry.
[editline]26th October 2014[/editline]
It runs the same way for those who look for a suitable mate, or relationship seem to sit and think that looks play a vital role in the ability to spend time, get along with and generally build a solid relationship.
You could be dating the hottest woman in the world, but if she is incredibly arrogant, self concieted, abrasive and generally rather nasty. Would you REALLY sit around and be with this person because they look "pretty"?
If you answer yes. That just makes you shallow. Which I guess makes you no different to those who believe clothes and tattoos dictate a manner of which you can present your skills per se.
If no. Then why is there a double standard between this, and someone you would hire to work for you simply because you believe that tattoos and clothes dictate my former points?
Looking pretty doesn't always MEAN a person will be the person you need or will be the best for you. It just simply means you would choose them because of shallow and rather hollow ideals.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46303287]Yes[/QUOTE]
The fact that 60 people agree with you is pretty fucking sad.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46333753]I wish I had teachers like that.
[editline]26th October 2014[/editline]
That makes me think about creating a super edgy "Rock-n-Roll" school.
I would be the director and I would hire every good teacher fired from other schools due to standing out in some way.
It would be the most metal school because every teacher would be cool and rad and we would play metal and rock over the school stereo system.[/QUOTE]
Well you're allowed to create your own free schools here and there's loads of random ones like yoga schools, so that would be do-able
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46304325]I like the human body being pure. There's nothing more to that. Adding permanent marks likes tattoos and piercings goes against that.[/QUOTE]
Tattoos and piercings are just a way of expressing yourself, same as clothes or different hairstyles.
I don't understand why you are so adamant about judging people based on their outside appearance, when a human being can be just as rotten from the inside tattoos or no.
Lol people on facepunch against tattoos.
Tattoos are awesome, this is unarguable, objective fact. Plain human skin is boring :^)
[QUOTE=Perfumly;46335361]Lol people on facepunch against tattoos.
Tattoos are awesome, this is unarguable, objective fact. Plain human skin is boring :^)[/QUOTE]
imo getting full body ones are disgusting though
[QUOTE=Zadrave;46335520]imo getting full body ones are disgusting though[/QUOTE]
Meh, I will probably eventually be covered, and I honestly really enjoy looking at the tattoos of other people who are covered in tattoos.
I'm more into the artsy-tattoo scene though, gangland and prison/basement tats turn me off a bit. My first post was kind of a joke, but I do think judging over tattoos is a bit silly.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;46308067]no
they dont care about your self expression
they DO care about the shitty drawings on your skin
a practice once reserved for the absolute lowest of the low in society[/QUOTE]
My Dad has a tattoo of Jesus on his shoulder. Does that make him the lowest of the low in society?
[QUOTE=gk99;46336548]My Dad has a tattoo of Jesus on his shoulder. Does that make him the lowest of the low in society?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
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