• French PM suggests naked breasts represent France better than a headscarf
    161 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Marbalo;50977483]The burkini is offensive on its own merit because of its unironic oppression of Muslim women, whether you want to admit it or not. Freedom of religion here collides with basic humanitarian values. They wear it because they were brought up in that enviroment. Therefore the argument of "they choose to wear it" plays no part here, since no choice was being made to begin with. This is a step in the right direction not because its against Islam, but because its against a symbol of oppression. I hate to use all these buzzwords but I hope I got the point across.[/QUOTE] So you should take away their freedom to wear what they want to protect their freedom? "Can't you see I'm trying to help you! Why won't you let me help" The veil during a wedding is the very same symbol of oppression (same deeply sexist origin as stuff like veil and burka) would you ban that? If not, why not? If you want to get rid of it don't ban it, make people not want to wear it, banning it just makes people feel they and their identity/culture/religion is getting attacked and they'll dig themselves in or become more segregated. Just so we're clear is the argument for banning because of perceived sexism or because some people chose to get offended by it?
[QUOTE=Tools;50977513]Oh yeah that's nice, manipulate my words into sounding as you want them to sound. [B]A burka is a symbol of religion, and the terrorist attacks were also a symbol of religion. Do you see the connection?[/B] Either way then it's still an obstruction of your identification, so just like wearing a bike helmet while inside a bank - it should be banned.[/QUOTE] "Terrorist attacks are a symbol of Islam." It already is banned. Unless you're going to a mosque to worship as I already stated. And you're the one who said it, it's not on me if you're making a false equivalency again. [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Tools;50977527]Maybe if you'd pay attention to your middle school studies then you'd know that a lot of women don't get to choose whether or not they want to wear a burka? I don't know what you call that, but last I checked the definition of extremist then it was properly fitting.[/QUOTE] So these women in France are being forced against their will to wear them?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50977528]But... we already did, hence the last papal reformation happened.[/QUOTE] Enlighten me on this one, I like where its heading.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50977522]Exactly, all the burkini banning has done is created either a slippery slope or one hell of a hypocrisy. Why not ban Christian values for the same reason we ban Muslim values?[/QUOTE] Because Christian values aren't forcefully maintained.. If you don't want to go to church, your fault for "choosing hell" tho' with the Quran it's a family shaming for missing out on strict traditions.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977536]Because Christian values aren't forcefully maintained.. If you don't want to go to church, your fault for "choosing hell" tho' with the Quran it's a family shaming for missing out on strict traditions.[/QUOTE] Ok, I get you. But how does banning the clothing help that situation?
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977530] So these women in France are being forced against their will to wear them?[/QUOTE] Do you put a question mark behind every sentence IRL too? Or do you spent a minute extra and create your own opinion? Because guess what, the former one makes you appear like a jackass. [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Megadave;50977539]Ok, I get you. But how does banning the clothing help that situation?[/QUOTE] The idea (hope) is that if the item is banned then more women who had it forcefully placed will be free, than the number of women who wore it out of own will.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50977500]You're not seeing this the way they do. Let's take for example, football and English football fans. Imagine that for some reason, there's a massive exodus of English people flying to Japan, where they have better job prospects and a coincidentally, the possibility of settling down in Japan. Now we all know how polite and orderly Japan football fans are, they are world wide known for their politeness, cleanliness and respect for public places, like football stadiums - unlike most (not all, *most*) English football fans, who just see it as an opportunity to get drunk, trash everything in their path and be loud as fuck the entire match. Now Japanese football fans are orders of magnitude more respectful, clean and cheerful than English football fans, who are just loud and crass, and prone to cause trouble inside and out of stadiums, compared to Japanese fans. And Japanese people, could very well take offense in all that; not because watching a football match without being a drunk, loud cunt is "The Japanese Way", but because that's just how things are in Japan, and you don't just walk in and tell them how to act and what to do around them; it's always the other way around. So you can't expect these new (hypothetical) English migrants to whine along the lines of: "these fookin japs won't let us enjoy football like we use to in England! We're just cheering* and 'aving a jolly good time with the lads! so what if we 'ave a few more beers**?!" *as in: being too obnoxious by Japanese standards. **as in: getting shitfaced drunk, trashing the place, fighting each other and acting practically like hooligans, to the point more Police is present than usual at the stadiums. You see what I mean? You can't just barge in, and impose your will onto the host country, and expect them to bend to your will. This is what they refer, when they consider the burkini an affront to "The French Way", so to speak. Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE] Your example has english fans trashing stuff and being obnoxious. A woman wearing clothes isn't intimidating or trashing stuff. Unless one is intimidated by women in which case her wearing less clothes would be more intimidating. Or one is intimidated by other cultures... in which case the reason for burkini ban is p obvious.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977540]Do you put a question mark behind every sentence IRL too? Or do you spent a minute extra and create your own opinion? Because guess what, the former one makes you appear like a jackass.[/QUOTE] What does this have to do with anything in the thread? If I'm asking a question obviously I'm going to use a question mark. You're talking about context that applies to hardline middle eastern countries and trying to use it in regards to France. I'm going to have a problem with that line of reasoning.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977540]Do you put a question mark behind every sentence IRL too? Or do you spent a minute extra and create your own opinion? Because guess what, the former one makes you appear like a jackass.[/QUOTE] Only one that looks like a jackass here is you. You talk as if Islam is the only oppressive religion in the world at the moment, which just isn't true.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977540]Do you put a question mark behind every sentence IRL too? Or do you spent a minute extra and create your own opinion? Because guess what, the former one makes you appear like a jackass. [/QUOTE] Consider the rhetorical question. If I ask you a question which makes you reconsider your views, is that not more effective than telling you that you are wrong?
[QUOTE=Tools;50977540]The idea (hope) is that if the item is banned then more women who had it forcefully placed will be free, than the number of women who wore it out of own will.[/QUOTE] Surely you have some evidence to backup the assertion that the majority of French Muslim women wearing burkas are being forced to do against their will.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977536]Because Christian values aren't forcefully maintained.. If you don't want to go to church, your fault for "choosing hell" tho' with the Quran it's a family shaming for missing out on strict traditions.[/QUOTE] You've apparently never interacted with a strictly Christian family, they will shame, blackmail, and generally act shitty to you if you step out of line. Should the US ban beards so we can save all the men being shamed into staying in Amish societies?
[QUOTE=Tools;50977466]Good, French traditions is something good - especially when boobies are involved. The burkini is an idiotic idea and should be banned, just like the burka and other extremist accessories in general.[/QUOTE] Fucking extremists wearing clothes I don't like.
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;50977557]Fucking extremists wearing clothes I don't like.[/QUOTE] I feel triggered and oppressed by the cut of your jeans. Please remove them. Now.
You know life would just be much more simple without clothes in general. We get to defeat slave labour in poor countries and get to see boobs. win-win
[QUOTE=Matrix374;50977564]You know life would just be much more simple without clothes in general. We get to defeat slave labour in poor countries and get to see boobs win-win[/QUOTE] A life without pockets would be difficult. Maybe we can have like a harness or something. Or a belt with pouches on it. Or we can pay people (who would previously be employed making and selling clothes) to carry stuff round for us?
Honestly it should be illegal for women to wear clothes. I can't believe we as a society still force this upon them. While there will be opposition at first after a couple years of forced female nudity they'll realize how free they are.
Speaking of the Amish, let's ban bonnets.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50977554]Surely you have some evidence to backup the assertion that the majority of French Muslim women wearing burkas are being forced to do against their will.[/QUOTE] [url]https://quran.com/24/30-31[/url] It's literally in the Quran dude, that all women are to wear it whenever they're not alone with their loved ones.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977575][url]https://quran.com/24/30-31[/url] It's literally in the Quran dude.[/QUOTE] So literally every muslim is a fundamentalist who forces absolute adherence to the bible and the possibility that some muslim women might choose to wear a burka of her own free will is impossible. I'm pretty sure the Bible has some strict rules but that doesn't mean everyone that adheres to them is being forced. The Bible says to stone people, and I mean it's in the Bible so clearly everyone does it.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977575][URL]https://quran.com/24/30-31[/URL] It's literally in the Quran dude.[/QUOTE] You're again trying to compare hardline Islam practiced in the Middle East to Muslim families in France. Nor is that what I asked for, evidence is statistics. Unless you mean that because it's in the book of their religion, and they practice it, they must be forced into. In which case my practicing of lent might be akin to the same kind of oppression?
Haha yeah no fuck that logic. The French revolution also triggered the emergence of traditional regional outfits all across France. After centuries of living under Kings who would shut down these sorts of cultural differences to better unify subjects under royal authority, people had a sudden burst of cultural creativity and expressed themselves by making all of these colorful attires. You know what was common with the crushing majority of these attires ? The amount of fucking headscarves, bonnets and complex hats women would wear. You know what none of these attires had ? Naked fucking breasts. And even without going into traditional costumes, every woman was basically required to wear some form of hat or headscarf or something on their head to be considered presentable. This remained the case well into the middle of the 20th century until WW2, during and after which American troops introduced new fashion and more practical choices of clothing to women and things changed.
What is the point of banning the Burkini anyway? Is it to preserve French culture? To integrate Muslims?To me it seems like a very empty and rather tame gesture that doesn't really contribute much to any of those.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50977534]Enlighten me on this one, I like where its heading.[/QUOTE] Sorry, my euro-centrists beliefs were expressing themselves again. Read up about the renaissance and the French revolution, it was an inside joke for French people. [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] Why dont we compromise both French and Islamic values?? [B] the French values burkini... Everything is covered except for the tits.[/B]
[QUOTE=Anderan;50977580]So literally every muslim is a fundamentalist who forces absolute adherence to the bible and the possibility that some muslim women might choose to wear a burka of her own free will is impossible. I'm pretty sure the Bible has some strict rules but that doesn't mean everyone that adheres to them is being forced. The Bible says to stone people, and I mean it's in the Bible so clearly everyone does it.[/QUOTE] It's also illegal to stone people, thus nobody does it and everyone's happy it is that way. And I'm mostly worried about the safety concerns that a burka can cause a risk to. In example, a woman wearing a burka entered a prison here in Denmark, and gave it to her imprisoned husband - and nobody dared to check "her" on the way out, so the prisoner walked free. Nobody would be allowed in places like this if they were wearing a full-on munk suit with their entire person covered, they'd be asked to take it off.
I don't recall anyone saying that Hijabs and whatnot should represent france wtf
[QUOTE=Tools;50977612]And I'm mostly worried about the safety concerns that a burka can cause a risk to. In example, a woman wearing a burka entered a prison here in Denmark, and gave it to her imprisoned husband - and nobody dared to check "her" on the way out, so the prisoner walked free. Nobody would be allowed in places like this if they were wearing a full-on munk suit with their entire person covered, they'd be asked to take it off.[/QUOTE] That has literally nothing to do with brukas and more a failure on the part of the prison staff to monitor visits. Also, nice job ignoring the entire point of my post.
[QUOTE=Araknid;50977615]I don't recall anyone saying that Hijabs and whatnot should represent france wtf[/QUOTE] Hijabs arent banned in france though... so i fail to see the issues.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977575][url]https://quran.com/24/30-31[/url] It's literally in the Quran dude, that all women are to wear it whenever they're not alone with their loved ones.[/QUOTE] This is also in the quran [quote]O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good. (004:019)[/quote] [quote] And do not wish for that by which Allah has made some of you exceed others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah of his bounty. Indeed Allah is ever, of all things, Knowing. [4:32] [/quote]
[QUOTE=Araknid;50977625]This is also in the quran[/QUOTE] What is the relevance? can you explain it to me?
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