French PM suggests naked breasts represent France better than a headscarf
161 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978491]If this creates a more forced step towards integration, I don't see an issue.
If clothing like this steps into the next generation born in countries, we have a huge issue. It would mean that integration has failed, and everything will just get worse.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I'm sure ostracising and isolating them even further is going to help them get integrated.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978641]It kind of does have to be "our way or bust" considering if there is no integration, they end up re-creating their own country, the country they escaped from, inside their new country, defeating the point of them leaving. Thus, when generations are born, the loyalty to such a country they were born in, doesn't exist like it does currently.
There are some simple rules, immigrants and refugees, must integrate with our society and culture, not the other way around, this is important as the countries they are coming to, which most facepunch users are from, first world countries, typically in alliance with each other have a system that has no reason to change, or step backwards. If we don't meet integration status, we begin to see their own laws attempting to be enforced, or even made legal though our system via making political parties for those purposes in the future.
Our systems are built on trust, our systems are built on rights. We don't have a system to handle people not integrating, we've built ourselves rights that are granted to everyone which eventually get turned against us, like we are seeing right here. It is dangerous times when we get new generations following exactly along the old without integration.[/QUOTE]
And what does banning a piece of clothing do other than create outrage?
I like how we have a problem with the Burkini despite them probably being around for more than a decade, but now its suddenly an issue.
Man is that PM a weenie
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;50978655]And what does banning a piece of clothing do other than create outrage?[/QUOTE]
It is more of a 'your culture does not fit with our way of life, this is a warning'.
If they want to take it as an offence, they can, as it is their right, given to them by us. The issue is not even current wearers, its with future wearers. I live in New Zealand, we take on refugees, they aren't born here, and have very little tie to our country, the goal of integration is so when those refugees have kids, they call themselves "New Zealanders" not identify as "Muslims", which if you follow social media, a lot of them see themselves as something beyond their country, thus lacking such loyalty that is needed in citizens for a country to maintain itself and its laws. If you have large groups of people, identifying themselves as religion and/or culture over the country they are born, one can only see the issues that will stem from that. It means integration has failed, and it will eventually mean political parties or movements to push for their laws, because they don't recognise our laws, because they feel no loyalty to their country they were born in.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50978596]pieces of clothing wont help, we need bigger guns at this point... im starting to play with the idea that immigrants should not be allowed to choose where they settle down and sprinkle them around the country depending on muslim representation and forcefully break up ghettoes...
Muslims should be forced to participate into western society and forced to have a stake in its succes, preferably in a way that is the least fascistic as possible but at this point im very unsure we can still pull this straight with freedom and democracy.[/QUOTE]
Why the fuck should religious minorities follow western society and it's laws when it's own politicians are willing to throw all those ideals away just to shit on Muslims? French mayors are breaking the law by trying to keep the ban lmao, they clearly have deep respect for western ideals.
But of course it's fine when it's white French people, right?
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978677]It is more of a 'your culture does not fit with our way of life, this is a warning'.
If they want to take it as an offense, they can, as it is their right, given to them by us. The issue is not even current wearers, its with future wearers. I live in New Zealand, we take on refugees, they aren't born here, and have very little tie to our country, the goal of integration is so when those refugees have kids, they call themselves "New Zealanders" not identify as "Muslims", which if you follow social media, a lot of them see themselves as something beyond their country, thus lacking such loyalty that is needed in citizens for a country to maintain itself and its laws.[/QUOTE]
What about people who identify as French but also want to wear burkinis because they just feel like it.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978677]It is more of a 'your culture does not fit with our way of life, this is a warning'.
If they want to take it as an offense, they can, as it is their right, given to them by us. The issue is not even current wearers, its with future wearers. I live in New Zealand, we take on refugees, they aren't born here, and have very little tie to our country, the goal of integration is so when those refugees have kids, they call themselves "New Zealanders" not identify as "Muslims", which if you follow social media, a lot of them see themselves as something beyond their country, thus lacking such loyalty that is needed in citizens for a country to maintain itself and its laws.[/QUOTE]
You do know that New Zealanders can be Muslims right? It's not an exclusive thing
[I]"How dare you call yourself Christian, you should be calling yourself American!"[/I] It is as stupid as it sounds
Also, what is our way of life? Not wearing burkinis?... what the hell is the threat? Are they suddenly going to impose we wear burkinis? Are burkinis going to brainwash children who look at them in the streets?
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978677] It means integration has failed, and it will eventually mean political parties or movements to push for their laws, because they don't recognise our laws, because they feel no loyalty to their country they were born in.[/QUOTE]
Okay then you cross that bridge when you come to it. You just come across as someone who is really afraid of Muslims and think that a frilly wetsuit is a slippery slope to Muslims establishing theocracies in New Zealand and France.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978491]If this creates a more forced step towards integration, I don't see an issue.[/QUOTE]
A clothing ban promotes segregation in hopes of forcing assimilation, which is equally despicable.
Do you really think that women that would previously wear burkinis will now wear bikinis? And why should they anyhow, bikinis were seen as scandalous just a few decades ago.
[quote]thus lacking such loyalty that is needed in citizens for a country to maintain itself and its laws.[/quote]
Are you equally troubled by anarchists or self-proclaimed citizens of the world who reject the idea of nation-states?
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;50978693]Why the fuck should religious minorities follow western society and it's laws when it's own politicians are willing to throw all those ideals away just to shit on Muslims? French mayors are breaking the law by trying to keep the ban lmao, they clearly have deep respect for western ideals.
But of course it's fine when it's white French people, right?[/QUOTE]
Because the religion minority that is the topic of this dicussion does not fit with western society, just because its politicans "throw all those ideals away just to shit on muslims", doesn't mean western soceity is bad, because where we are currently sitting, its a hell of a lot better than the rest of the world. Western ideals are great, but we are approaching an area where they begin to collapse to maintain the lifestyle.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50978696]What about people who identify as French but also want to wear burkinis because they just feel like it.[/QUOTE]
If they identify as French, it means they are atleast partly integrated, because it means within a generation or two, they won't be wearing a burkini, thats how integration works.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978729]Because the religion minority that is the topic of this dicussion does not fit with western society, just because its politicans "throw all those ideals away just to shit on muslims", doesn't mean western soceity is bad, because where we are currently sitting, its a hell of a lot better than the rest of the world. Western ideals are great, but we are approaching an area where they begin to collapse to maintain the lifestyle.
If they identify as French, it means they are atleast partly integrated, because it means within a generation or two, they won't be wearing a burkini, thats how integration works.[/QUOTE]
A lifestyle of giving people the freedom to choose what to wear is suddenly so [I]wrong[/I]
We should be taking the Saudi Arabia approach: homosexuality has no place in their society, so they get rid of the gays
I say we're doing p fine thank you
And no, identifying as French doesnt mean you will stop practicing your religion
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978729]Because the religion minority that is the topic of this dicussion does not fit with western society, just because its politicans "throw all those ideals away just to shit on muslims", doesn't mean western soceity is bad, because where we are currently sitting, its a hell of a lot better than the rest of the world. Western ideals are great, but we are approaching an area where they begin to collapse to maintain the lifestyle.[/QUOTE]
Okay so we should ban burkini's because they are causing the literal collapse of western liberalism, thanks for coming outright and saying it instead of beating around the bush i guess but you are crazy.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978729]If they identify as French, it means they are atleast partly integrated, because it means within a generation or two, they won't be wearing a burkini, thats how integration works.[/QUOTE]
No it's not, not at all. You have no idea how integration works if you think it's predicated on things as banal as swimwear.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
The only way to protect western values of democracy, liberalism, and personal freedom is by using the power of the state to publicly strip people of their freedoms on the basis of religion.
People like Boilrig and Pretiacruento are bigger threats to integration than people who want to wear burkinis tbh.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978677]It is more of a 'your culture does not fit with our way of life, this is a warning'.
If they want to take it as an offence, they can, as it is their right, given to them by us. The issue is not even current wearers, its with future wearers. I live in New Zealand, we take on refugees, they aren't born here, and have very little tie to our country, the goal of integration is so when those refugees have kids, they call themselves "New Zealanders" not identify as "Muslims", which if you follow social media, a lot of them see themselves as something beyond their country, thus lacking such loyalty that is needed in citizens for a country to maintain itself and its laws. If you have large groups of people, identifying themselves as religion and/or culture over the country they are born, one can only see the issues that will stem from that. It means integration has failed, and it will eventually mean political parties or movements to push for their laws, because they don't recognise our laws, because they feel no loyalty to their country they were born in.[/QUOTE]
You literally have zero idea of what you're talking about.
There already are groups of people in France who'll try to push the legal system to their advantage. Some of them are Muslim, and they'll try to push stupid shit like locally banning Christmas because it's not a Muslim holiday and its display "offends" them.
You wanna know what ? Everybody already hates and makes fun of these dipshits. Nobody listens to them. They're in such an absurdly small amount across the nation that seeing any form of pattern stemming from it would be nothing short of paranoia.
And you wanna know something else ? There's [I]christian[/I] groups that also push for stupid shit like opposing the Gay marriage laws and, once they were voted, pushing to repeal them. There's even a group of men who regularly protest abortion and try to have the 1975 law legalizing it repealed.
These people exist not because of integration problems but because [I]people are fucking stupid and they'll always be.[/I] If you're legitimately scared of a bunch of blokes because they're wearing more conservative clothes than the rest of the blokes at the beach, then you're nothing more than a paranoid idiot and if you legitimately want the law to start working against these people just to make you feel better then you fall exactly into the category of dipshits that you are so scared about.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977540]Do you put a question mark behind every sentence IRL too? Or do you spent a minute extra and create your own opinion? Because guess what, the former one makes you appear like a jackass.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
The idea (hope) is that if the item is banned then more women who had it forcefully placed will be free, than the number of women who wore it out of own will.[/QUOTE]
How naive are you? It is much more likely those who were "forced" to wear such clothing would then have restrictions placed on them being in public. Banning a piece of clothing won't get rid of the cultural ideals behind it.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;50977483]The burkini is offensive on its own merit because of its unironic oppression of Muslim women, whether you want to admit it or not. Freedom of religion here collides with basic humanitarian values.
They wear it because they were brought up in that enviroment. Therefore the argument of "they choose to wear it" plays no part here, since no choice was being made to begin with.
This is a step in the right direction not because its against Islam, but because its against a symbol of oppression. I hate to use all these buzzwords but I hope I got the point across.[/QUOTE]
What about a christian girl who's brought up in an environment where it's ingrained into her mindset that any girl who wears revealing clothing should be shunned? How much choice does she have when it's a belief her entire community perpetuates? Should we start banning ankle-high skirts to combat that oppression?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50978743]Okay so we should ban burkini's because they are causing the literal collapse of western liberalism, thanks for coming outright and saying it instead of beating around the bush i guess but you are crazy.
No it's not, not at all. You have no idea how integration works if you think it's predicated on things as banal as swimwear.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
The only way to protect western values of democracy, liberalism, and personal freedom is by using the power of the state to publicly strip people of their freedoms on the basis of religion.
People like Boilrig and Pretiacruento are bigger threats to integration than people who want to wear burkinis tbh.[/QUOTE]
I hold no indifference towards banning it or not, if it was banned, it would be interesting to monitor and may prove to be a forceful push towards integration, if it proves to be the opposite, then another approach will be required at some point.
Integration would be considered successful if political parties are not made. One of the most simple key indicators, or even better, non-interference in day to day operations of a country or life.
The only way to maintain our current state is to progress integration more quickly than scheduled, and it may take generations, but eventually it will happen, and that is all that needs to happen.
Oh Yeah, I'm totally a thread towards integration, because I want them to actually be connected to our country and accept its culture and way of life, and not attempt to create their own countries within our countries, because right now, it seems like they disregard ours. I can't remember, last I checked, tourist woman had to cover up in middle east countries.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50978756]You literally have zero idea of what you're talking about.
There already are groups of people in France who'll try to push the legal system to their advantage. Some of them are Muslim, and they'll try to push stupid shit like locally banning Christmas because it's not a Muslim holiday and its display "offends" them.
You wanna know what ? Everybody already hates and makes fun of these dipshits. Nobody listens to them. They're in such an absurdly small amount across the nation that seeing any form of pattern stemming from it would be nothing short of paranoia.
And you wanna know something else ? There's [I]christian[/I] groups that also push for stupid shit like opposing the Gay marriage laws and, once they were voted, pushing to repeal them. There's even a group of men who regularly protest abortion and try to have the 1975 law legalizing it repealed.
These people exist not because of integration problems but because [I]people are fucking stupid and they'll always be.[/I] If you're legitimately scared of a bunch of blokes because they're wearing more conservative clothes than the rest of the blokes at the beach, then you're nothing more than a paranoid idiot and if you legitimately want the law to start working against these people just to make you feel better then you fall exactly into the category of dipshits that you are so scared about.[/QUOTE]
Of all that writing, you forget the main factor in all of this and that is time.
Time is the biggest factor in the equation, some can see it, some can't. If we add in their culture/religion, same thing, and we add in the amount of refugees/global movement we are taking on, as well as their large birthrates, add in localized areas of gathering because we don't keep them split up and eventually stuff like banning christmas in your local village becomes a reality. A political party for sharia law becomes a reality, because of time.
Our way of life is fragile, adding them to the equation does not help at all. Integration, or we have a problem on our hands.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50978853]What about a christian girl who's brought up in an environment where it's ingrained into her mindset that any girl who wears revealing clothing should be shunned? How much choice does she have when it's a belief her entire community perpetuates? Should we start banning ankle-high skirts to combat that oppression?[/QUOTE]
She probably won't attack you about it, so thats a bonus.
We must ban Chinese restaurants because those goddamn chinks aren't integrating, how dare they carry over bits of their homeland to ours
Only hamburgers and hot dogs should be legal in the good ol USA
Oh wait it's only scary when the brown people want to adapt their culture
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978879]She probably won't attack you about it, so thats a bonus.[/QUOTE]
silly me, forgetting muslims are the only people capable of violence
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50978892]silly me, forgetting muslims are the only people capable of violence[/QUOTE]
Liveleak doesn't have many videos of Christians chopping heads off disbelievers.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978901]Liveleak doesn't have many videos of Christians chopping heads off disbelievers.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit you are fucking deluded
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;50978693]Why the fuck should religious minorities follow western society and it's laws when it's own politicians are willing to throw all those ideals away just to shit on Muslims? French mayors are breaking the law by trying to keep the ban lmao, they clearly have deep respect for western ideals.
But of course it's fine when it's white French people, right?[/QUOTE]
I guess i must have been a racist all along, i never even mentioned muslims or white skin concerning this and i thought i was talking about extremism in immigrants and ghettoficiation... but yea... il go self flagellate myself now.
Does legislating against the group you want to stop really work? Historically no, but none of you pushing for this care about that.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50978906]Does legislating against the group you want to stop really work? Historically no, but none of you pushing for this care about that.[/QUOTE]
It does if its not legislation against the group you want to stop, but just making more clear to everyone what is cool and what isn't...
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50978921]It does if its not legislation against the group you want to stop, but just making more clear to everyone what is cool and what isn't...[/QUOTE]
So wearing a wetsuit on a beach is illegal?
So, controlling peoples freedoms in an attempt to "be free" isn't a hypocritical action that leads to a worse place than we are now?
Do you people want muslims to integrate? Then stop legislating against them, they'll just take this as fuel for their extremism.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50978933]So wearing a wetsuit on a beach is illegal?
So, controlling peoples freedoms in an attempt to "be free" isn't a hypocritical action that leads to a worse place than we are now?
Do you people want muslims to integrate? Then stop legislating against them, they'll just take this as fuel for their extremism.[/QUOTE]
Depends if they are going to integrate at all.
[B]This question is ignored in every thread of this nature that I ask it. Please don't fucking ignore it this time. It's very pertinent.[/B]
Do any of you, in the event where society legislated against you, intend on giving up your passions and beliefs [B]for the state[/B]? Or would you fight?
Just fucking answer this. It's so fucking telling to me that none of you want to answer this.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978937]Depends if they are going to integrate at all.[/QUOTE]
Well they sure as [B]fuck[/B] won't do that once you legislate against them so you just made the situation worse so what do you actually want?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50978921]I guess i must have been a racist all along, i never even mentioned muslims or white skin concerning this and i thought i was talking about extremism in immigrants and ghettoficiation... but yea... il go self flagellate myself now.[/QUOTE]
Never targeted you specifically, I was talking more about how there's virtually no outrage over the French mayors going against the court's decision by trying to keep the ban (which IS going against the ideals of Western society.) yet a simple swim suit is enough to drive people up the wall.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978937]Depends if they are going to integrate at all.[/QUOTE]
As long as you respect and follow the country's laws, do your civic duty and are kind to your neighbor, why is there a further need to integrate?
Again, there are plenty of Europeans who reject the idea of nation-states. I disagree with their stance on the issue, but as long as they do all of the above, why do I care what their opinions and beliefs are?
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978879]Of all that writing, you forget the main factor in all of this and that is time.
Time is the biggest factor in the equation, some can see it, some can't. If we add in their culture/religion, same thing, and we add in the amount of refugees/global movement we are taking on, as well as their large birthrates, add in localized areas of gathering because we don't keep them split up and eventually stuff like banning christmas in your local village becomes a reality. A political party for sharia law becomes a reality, because of time.
Our way of life is fragile, adding them to the equation does not help at all. Integration, or we have a problem on our hands.[/QUOTE]
Still displaying blatant proof of your complete inadequacy to treat the subject.
The French colonization of Maghreb began in fucking [I]1830[/I] when Algeria was taken as a colony. The big colonization arc reached a peak in 1915 when Morocco joined Tunisia and Algeria in our colonies.
As one may expect, this colonization meant [I]heavy[/I] influx of people back and forth between Maghreb and France. This meant that we had a ton of people over in Maghreb (especially in Algeria) and they had a ton of people over here in France. In 2011 it was estimated that about 9% of French citizens under 60 had ancestry in Maghreb going back three generations - that's about 60 to 75 years, meaning a lot of these people came to France after WW2 to take in jobs during the reconstruction or in reaction to Maghreb gaining its independence (1956 was when Morocco and Tunisia became independent, Algeria had to wait for six more years and go through a pretty terrible conflict to get what they wanted).
And interactions between France and Maghreb, let alone the rest of the Arabic world, go back [I]way[/I] further than colonization. We've been in dialogue and cultural exchange with these people for literal centuries - Maghreb was part of the Roman Empire just like we were. The local mountainous regions near where I live are named after [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors]the inhabitants of Maghreb[/url] as they were called during the middle ages - this goes to show how early we got in contact with them and how early the dialogue settled. Not to mention the plethora of words, technical terms and sciences we use on a day to day basis that come from our relations with Arabian countries.
So please tell me how your whole "time is of the essence" logic figures into all this. I have a feeling you were legitimately believing that Muslims had just sort of appeared less than a generation ago and were only just now present in France when the first waves of immigration hit like three to four generations ago, that is to say nearly a hundred years back.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978901]Liveleak doesn't have many videos of Christians chopping heads off disbelievers.[/QUOTE]
ah yes liveleak, truly the paragon of modern unbiased journalism
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