French PM suggests naked breasts represent France better than a headscarf
161 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50978947][B]This question is ignored in every thread of this nature that I ask it. Please don't fucking ignore it this time. It's very pertinent.[/B]
Do any of you, in the event where society legislated against you, intend on giving up your passions and beliefs [B]for the state[/B]? Or would you fight?
Just fucking answer this. It's so fucking telling to me that none of you want to answer this.
[/QUOTE]
Your question is quite open ended, because it has to depend on what these passions or beliefs actually are. Some passions or beliefs won't be as powerful to override loyalty to the state or vice versa.
[QUOTE=Tools;50977540]The idea (hope) is that if the item is banned then more women who had it forcefully placed will be free, than the number of women who wore it out of own will.[/QUOTE]
It's fucking dumb.
If a woman is being forced to wear a hijab or whatever by the husband, how will banning the clothing help when the husband could just force the wife to not go anywhere and stay in the house?
This shit helps no one at all.
It's pretty sad the state of fear that propaganda by the west has managed to make in it's citizens like boilrig there.
Muslims are not a blood thirsty warring hive mind. They're fucking people.
I really can't imagine dehumanizing people as less than people ever succeeding at causing those people to treat us with respect
but clearly, if we just subjugate and persecute them enough, they'll respect us.
that's how it works.
yeah, i'm sure that's how it works.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978982]Your question is quite open ended, because it has to depend on what these passions or beliefs actually are. Some passions or beliefs won't be as powerful to override loyalty to the state or vice versa.[/QUOTE]
It honestly doesn't fucking matter, you, like everyone else, dodge the question because it's too pertinent.
Would you let the state subjugate you for the "good of the people" or would you defend yourself and stand up for yourself?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50978999]
It honestly doesn't fucking matter, you, like everyone else, dodge the question because it's too pertinent.
Would you let the state subjugate you for the "good of the people" or would you defend yourself and stand up for yourself?[/QUOTE]
I'm honestly not attempting to dodge the question. How important are these beliefs or passions you speak of within this scenario of the question.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50978999]It's pretty sad the state of fear that propaganda by the west has managed to make in it's citizens like boilrig there.
Muslims are not a blood thirsty warring hive mind. They're fucking people.
I really can't imagine dehumanizing people as less than people ever succeeding at causing those people to treat us with respect
but clearly, if we just subjugate and persecute them enough, they'll respect us.
that's how it works.
yeah, i'm sure that's how it works.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
It honestly doesn't fucking matter, you, like everyone else, dodge the question because it's too pertinent.
Would you let the state subjugate you for the "good of the people" or would you defend yourself and stand up for yourself?[/QUOTE]
The thing that amuses me is people like Boilrig, someone who passionately defends "Western Society" are people who evidently have such little faith in said society that a single piece of clothing can pose a gigantic threat to it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50978933]So wearing a wetsuit on a beach is illegal?
So, controlling peoples freedoms in an attempt to "be free" isn't a hypocritical action that leads to a worse place than we are now?
Do you people want muslims to integrate? Then stop legislating against them, they'll just take this as fuel for their extremism.[/QUOTE]
'you people'
hold your horses there, im against the ban... you are starting to sound like an ideologue even if i agree with you that the ban is stupid.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978879]I hold no indifference towards banning it or not[/QUOTE]
Bullshit. You have been supporting this from the get go.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50978879]Oh Yeah, I'm totally a thread towards integration, because I want them to actually be connected to our country and accept its culture and way of life, and not attempt to create their own countries within our countries, because right now, it seems like they disregard ours. I can't remember, last I checked, tourist woman had to cover up in middle east countries.[/QUOTE]
Last time I checked the aim of western liberal democracies wasn't fucking middle eastern theocracies.
I stand by what I said that you are doing more harm than any woman wearing a burkini.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50979027]'you people'
hold your horses there, im against the ban... you are starting to sound like an ideologue even if i agree with you that the ban is stupid.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you. I need some breakfast to ger my mind going apparently
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50979029]Bullshit. You have been supporting this from the get go.
Last time I checked the aim of western liberal democracies wasn't fucking middle eastern theocracies.
I stand by what I said that you are doing more harm than any woman wearing a burkini.[/QUOTE]
I still couldn't really care, because it is outside of my hands, if France wish to go down whatever path they choose, then they can.
No shit, that isn't the aim of western society, but we can all guess what happens when we displace a large amount of people who have no connection to our country and hold a religion/culture that is massively different to ours, at the very least, the word trouble comes to mind.
[QUOTE=Matrix374;50977489]Lets stop oppression by oppressing people into not-wearing a piece of clothing.
This is literally what some of you people are saying[/QUOTE]
You don't have a leg to stand on. You're not being freedom loving, liberalism is founded on the oppression of the clergy.
[Img]https://new2.fjcdn.com/comments/Iran+was+a+liberate+muslim+country+before+1979+and+look+_b0a8302a49d813eb2a80ae9d9694290a.jpg[/img]
Islam is reactionary and excesses of its culture have no place in the original birthplaces of the Enlightenment.
[Quote]As you will understand, it is possible for a dictator to govern in a liberal way. And it is also possible for a democracy to govern with a total lack of liberalism. Personally, I prefer a liberal dictator to democratic government lacking in liberalism.•- Hayek[/quote]
The excesses of multiculturalism increasingly means compromising on fundamental liberal values for fear of being called racist, but only because the Islamic world is simultaneously non-white and never received liberal enlightenment or modernity well. It only barely fostered nationalism and secularism, and that's being reversed by often the same sunni muslims we are importing. Arab nationalism looks to be like a 20th century phenomenon while gulf monarchies spread their influence and states like Libya, Iraq, and Syria crumble from modern european style nation-states into sectarianism and Islamic conservatism. Also Turkey speaks for itself.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979059]I still couldn't really care, because it is outside of my hands, if France wish to go down whatever path they choose, then they can.
No shit, that isn't the aim of western society, but we can all guess what happens when we displace a large amount of people who have no connection to our country and hold a religion/culture that is massively different to ours.[/QUOTE]
They only get more different when you force them to polarize and don't let them play in the reindeer games with everyone else when they want to participate
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979015]I'm honestly not attempting to dodge the question. How important are these beliefs or passions you speak of within this scenario of the question.[/QUOTE]
In either scenario, integral or not, think about it.
How does this play out when you use "empathy" (oh no not the dreaded empathy) to figure out how other people feel
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979059]I still couldn't really care, because it is outside of my hands, if France wish to go down whatever path they choose, then they can.
No shit, that isn't the aim of western society, but we can all guess what happens when we displace a large amount of people who have no connection to our country and hold a religion/culture that is massively different to ours, at the very least, the word trouble comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
Displace them, then when they're here disturb them so that they integrate peacefully
[QUOTE=Conscript;50979063]
The excesses of multiculturalism increasingly means compromising on fundamental liberal values for fear of being called racist[/QUOTE]
Fundamental liberal values like say being able to wear clothes you want without being oppressed by a supposedly secular state that doesn't wield it's powers consistently?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979065]In either scenario, integral or not, think about it.
How does this play out when you use "empathy" (oh no not the dreaded empathy) to figure out how other people feel
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
Displace them, then when they're here disturb them so that they integrate peacefully[/QUOTE]
The scenario needs to outline how strong the beliefs and passions are, for the question to be answered.
As I said, if they integrate.
[QUOTE=Conscript;50979063]You don't have a leg to stand on. You're not being freedom loving, liberalism is founded on the oppression of the clergy.
[Img]https://new2.fjcdn.com/comments/Iran+was+a+liberate+muslim+country+before+1979+and+look+_b0a8302a49d813eb2a80ae9d9694290a.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
How exactly does the revolution in Iran figure into the culture of North African immigrants ?
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979086]The scenario needs to outline how strong the beliefs and passions are, for the question to be answered.
As I said, if they integrate.[/QUOTE]
Nah mate you're just completely dodging the question because you don't like the prospect of being targeted by your own way of thought.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979086]The scenario needs to outline how strong the beliefs and passions are, for the question to be answered.
As I said, if they integrate.[/QUOTE]
Use your empathy.
If you ban integral beliefs they won't integrate out of anger.
If you ban non integral ones you just create a precedent that it's okay to go after them for nothing.
In either event how does the oppressed populous act? You've never been oppressed so try real hard
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
It's just sad.
If you lack the empathy and understanding of events evough to think this will help, YOU are the problem facing the West. Realistically no oppressed group just sits back and takes it. And you people expect Muslims to do so after 30 years of being treated like shit in France
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979103]Use your empathy.
If you ban integral beliefs they won't integrate out of anger.
If you ban non integral ones you just create a precedent that it's okay to go after them for nothing.
In either event how does the oppressed populous act? You've never been oppressed so try real hard[/QUOTE]
The empathy part is simple, that wasn't the issue. Now that you have outlined they are integral, it clears the question up.
Guess it just further expands on to how badly do these beliefs conflict in the resident countries law. Do we lash out and face even more reprisals? Is it worth it?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979103]And you people expect Muslims to do so after 30 years of being treated like shit in France[/QUOTE]
what???
where did that come from...
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979121]The empathy part is simple, that wasn't the issue. Now that you have outlined they are integral, it clears the question up.
Guess it just further expands on to how badly do these beliefs conflict in the resident countries law. Do we lash out and face even more reprisals etc. Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
You just leave it alone and let people wear what they want to wear, jesus christ this isn't fucking hard.
Easy racist test:
Do you care if a white Christian woman wears a headscarf? If yes, you are way too concerned with the way people dress. If no, proceed to next question.
Do you care if an Arab Muslim woman wears a headscarf? If yes, congrats! You are a racist. If no, congrats! You might not be a racist.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50979130]what???
where did that come from...[/QUOTE]
Muslims in France have faced oppressive legislation for years, that's why France is the target.
Apparently doubling down on what made France a target is intelligent
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979121]The empathy part is simple, that wasn't the issue. Now that you have outlined they are integral, it clears the question up.
Guess it just further expands on to how badly do these beliefs conflict in the resident countries law. Do we lash out and face even more reprisals? Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
Instead of playing religious police by forcing people to adhere to your own beliefs, just leave them alone to do their own thing. Remember, it's a fundamental right for people to practice their beliefs in such a way that it doesn't harm anybody. Clothing isn't going to fuel extremist behaviors, but forcing people to fit in with the rest of the crowd for no other reason than fear, now that's what will cause more reprisals.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979121]The empathy part is simple, that wasn't the issue. Now that you have outlined they are integral, it clears the question up.
Guess it just further expands on to how badly do these beliefs conflict in the resident countries law. Do we lash out and face even more reprisals? Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
How would you react if the state banned an integral part of your life.
Answer.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
If you don't want to be attacked by Muslims, maybe not passing straight up oppressive legislatures might help?
You're afraid of attacks? Stop provoking them with oppressive laws
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979146]How would you react if the state banned an integral part of your life.
Answer.[/QUOTE]
"integral belief or passion"* Depends on loyal oneself is to ones country.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979146]If you don't want to be attacked by Muslims, maybe not passing straight up oppressive legislatures might help?
You're afraid of attacks? Stop provoking them with oppressive laws[/QUOTE]
Of course, let's put our legislation on hold for them, to stop them attacking us, eventually leading them to attacking us because we don't enfact enforce their laws.
The way I see it, is we will be attacked until we enforce their laws.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50979142]Easy racist test:
Do you care if a white Christian woman wears a headscarf? If yes, you are way too concerned with the way people dress. If no, proceed to next question.
Do you care if an Arab Muslim woman wears a headscarf? If yes, congrats! You are a racist. If no, congrats! You might not be a racist.[/QUOTE]
whats up with injecting arab and white...
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979146]How would you react if the state banned an integral part of your life.
Answer.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
If you don't want to be attacked by Muslims, maybe not passing straight up oppressive legislatures might help?
You're afraid of attacks? Stop provoking them with oppressive laws[/QUOTE]
Examples of these laws?
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979165]"integral belief or passion"* Depends on loyal oneself is to ones country.[/QUOTE]
It must be hard to dodge a question this much just to avoid confronting the reality that your belief isn't logically consistent with the goals you want it just makes you feel safer to have an easily blamed boogeyman.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50979184]It must be hard to dodge a question this much just to avoid confronting the reality that your belief isn't logically consistent with the goals you want it just makes you feel safer to have an easily blamed boogeyman.[/QUOTE]
This isn't a question dodge, this is a scenario. A scenario that requires us to know a person's upbringing, current situation, how strong or weak these beliefs and/or passions are. You are saying If this, then this.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979165]"integral belief or passion"* Depends on loyal oneself is to ones country.
Of course, let's put our legislation on hold for them, to stop them attacking us, eventually leading them to attacking us because we don't enfact enforce their laws.
The way I see it, is we will be attacked until we enforce their laws.[/QUOTE]
Is it hard to put a foot down about our rules but still let them exist unoppressed? Is that too much to ask? Or does that not match your "what if" condition you base the treatment of a massive group on? Might as well kill them right? You'll have to oppress them forever, might as well kill em?
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
Let's just use a minority of Muslims to justify destroying their whole culture because it's a "threat" to us
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
How fucking weak is our society that a simple push could do it in? You have more faith in authoritarian beliefs aka Islam than you do in the West.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50979174]Examples of these laws?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools[/url]
In technicality not aimed at Muslims in particular, but both show an absurd bias against them.
In the case of the face covering ban, the generalization of the law to all articles of clothing was essentially just a way of circumventing the constitutional issues with making a law against one religion, even though every politician openly accepted the fact the law solely exists to deal with the Burqa, and everything else is byproduct.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50979165]"integral belief or passion"* Depends on loyal oneself is to ones country.
Of course, let's put our legislation on hold for them, to stop them attacking us, eventually leading them to attacking us because we don't enfact enforce their laws.
The way I see it, is we will be attacked until we enforce their laws.[/QUOTE]
Why introduce these legislations in the first place? because of fear? to have a scapegoat handy?
Fearmongering should not and must not be allowed to influence lawmaking, and forcible integration will only increase anger against those seen as the oppressors. If they don't want to toe the concept of western secularism, preferring their religious upbringing, they should be allowed to do so, [u]as long as they aren't harming others by doing so, and this includes the vast, vast majority of the 1.5 billion Muslims on this planet.[/u]
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