BLM Demonstrators Shut Down Minneapolis Interstate
95 replies, posted
Arguing about their protesting methods is pointless.
The message of their protest(s) is hypocritical and a double-standard and stigmatizing our police force doesn't solve problems in the long run, police officers are humans and a part of the community too, they don't want to be put into situations where they might be forced to shoot someone but that's kind of their job description.
Once again this movement misses the big picture that these problems stem from gang/ghetto culture and until people are willing to work towards enriching African-Americans caught in that culture, instead of pressuring them into perpetuating it they'll continue to be disproportionately involved in crimes and thus disproportionately faced with police action.
The police are not your enemy, stop perpetuating narratives that only serve the media.
edit: Fuck it let's throw some facts out here.
Here's a link to the most up to date homicide statistics based on race of the offender against the race of the victim.
[url]https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls[/url]
If black lives matter they should be protesting black on black violence because that's by far the vast majority of homicide deaths suffered by blacks.
Reminder that [url=http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045214/00]African-Americans are approximately 13% of the total U.S. population,[/url] yet rival whites (77%) in total murders and killed more than 11 times more African-Americans than whites did in 2014.
These protesters aren't interested black lives, they're just perpetuating a narrative, refute their bullshit.
Not to interrupt, but have a breaking update (posted 5 minutes ago) on the original content on this thread:
[quote]Lt. Bob Kroll, President of the Minneapolis Police Federation, told KARE 11's Lou Raguse Wednesday afternoon that Jamar Clark was trying to disarm one of the officers during a physical altercation after squads responded to reports of a domestic assault.
Kroll says handcuffs were never put on Clark, and emphasizes that his officers, identified by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension as Mark Ringgenberg and Dustin Schwarze, have no disciplinary incidents on their records while Clark has a history of convictions, some of them violent.[/quote]
[url]http://www.kare11.com/story/news/2015/11/18/names-of-officers-in-clark-shooting-released/75991472/[/url]
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49141652]Arguing about their protesting methods is pointless.
The message of their protest(s) is hypocritical and a double-standard and stigmatizing our police force doesn't solve problems in the long run, police officers are humans and a part of the community too, they don't want to be put into situations where they might be forced to shoot someone but that's kind of their job description.
Once again this movement misses the big picture that these problems stem from gang/ghetto culture and until people are willing to work towards enriching African-Americans caught in that culture, instead of pressuring them into perpetuating it they'll continue to be disproportionately involved in crimes and thus disproportionately faced with police action.
The police are not your enemy, stop perpetuating narratives that only serve the media.[/QUOTE]
And on top of that the only comparison to BLK and MLK is that their acronyms are three letters long. MLK was a mastermind who worked with hundreds of people in the south and spearheaded a completely nonviolent movement.
Yes, MLK's movement was disruptive. But it was targeted. It disrupted segregated businesses. Is BLM disrupting a segregated highway? No, they're just pissing off a bunch of everyday people who aren't going to give a shit about their cause because of this. BLM has no leader, which means it's not going to go anywhere. It's like a single arm with a hundred brains trying to make it do different things, and shit like this happens because someone thought it was a good idea. Not all attention is positive attention.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49141264]
Cite me one example of someone dying in an ambulance due to these highway blockages. [I]Potential deaths[/I] aren't deaths. Yes, it's a massive inconvenience, that's the point. I have zero doubt that if an ambulance started blaring its sirens and going towards the crowd, that the crowd would part to let it through.
As far as I know, nobody has died due to these blockages. The argument is "but people might die because of these specific circumstances," ignoring the actual message they're saying and complaining about inconvenience. This is exactly why MLK condemned the white moderate - rather than noticing the injustices and acting in solidarity, they just say "why now it's gonna make me late to work do it later it's no big deal what if an ambulance shows up," totally ignoring the greater message and focusing on self-interest rather than on greater social changes.
[/QUOTE]
So if I slash an ambulances tires it's only a potential death because there might not be an emergency before they get replaced?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49134304]It's pretty terrible to actually assualt an officer at a so called peaceful protest.
You guys talk about how BLM is in line with MLK on how they protest but MLK was never for ANY fucking violence of any sort ever. And I think it would be wrong for either group to say "he would or would not" like the title BLM, but I have a feeling at some level, he wouldn't have been for a more divisive term.
MLK was about bringing people together in brotherly love. If you insist that's what BLM is about, okay, I can't argue, I disagree and they've done a fine job of showing off the negative side of themselves.
Protesting is fine. Blocking the highway is fine.[/QUOTE]
Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49141264]Was the march from Selma to Montgomery not non-violent? The protesters were not the ones acting violently, but it led to death and suffering and loads of injuries. It led to the injury and death of people, but the protesters were not the ones directly doing it - it was through the actions of others that were inconvenienced.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck is that pathetic excuse? Are you seriously defending disrupting emergency services by saying the protesters were not the original cause of injury? If patients die or victims of a fire burn to a crisp because emergency vehicles were blocked off by these idiots, [B]it's their fucking fault and they are responsible for their death.[/B]
But hey, how about we go to the hospital and unplug some terminally ill patients? Surely it's morally neutral to do that, since the root cause of death is their illness in the first place.
You disgust me. Good job showing to everyone here that you care more about making noises and pretending to uphold social justice than you care about people losing their life. You know, the main talking point of BLM? Police murdering innocents? Does that ring a bell?
First the Bureau of Land Management, now #BlackLivesMatter
Seems that organizational entities whose acronym is BLM are always assholes lol
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
Nobody has needed emergency services so far right? I sure hope this doesn't cause anything like that
[QUOTE=_Axel;49142604]What the fuck is that pathetic excuse? Are you seriously defending disrupting emergency services by saying the protesters were not the original cause of injury? If patients die or victims of a fire burn to a crisp because emergency vehicles were blocked off by these idiots, [B]it's their fucking fault and they are responsible for their death.[/B]
But hey, how about we go to the hospital and unplug some terminally ill patients? Surely it's morally neutral to do that, since the root cause of death is their illness in the first place.
You disgust me. Good job showing to everyone here that you care more about making noises and pretending to uphold social justice than you care about people losing their life. You know, the main talking point of BLM? Police murdering innocents? Does that ring a bell?[/QUOTE]
My point is that [i]non-violent protesters[/i] blocking off a [i]single road[/i] that could [i]potentially[/i] lead to deaths is fucking nothing. There are hundreds of other roads surrounding I-94 on multiple sides that allow ambulances to reach hospitals easy - I-94 is really only the main ambulance thoroughfare for the Hennepin County Medical Center, anywhere outside of downtown Minneapolis and you'll likely go to other areas unless it's urgent.
I've lived in Minneapolis for over a year now and roads are [i]completely shut down[/i] throughout most of the summer because of the short time for road repairs. Crosstown and many other non-interstate roads are slowed to a crawl. The shoulders are filled by construction and road repair vehicles. It would be [I]genuinely impossible[/I] for an ambulance to get through on these [i]major roadways[/i]. They take the frontage roads or back roads instead. Does this mean that the state is responsible when ambulances can't reach the hospital in time, because they slowed down the roadways and limited ambulance movement? No - it doesn't make sense.
My point wasn't that it was [i]morally acceptable[/i], it was that it [i]wasn't even of moral concern[/i] because there are [i]numerous[/i] other pathways that are equally as fast, or quicker, that EMTs know how to utilize, and they would be fully aware of a protest on an interstate highway and use those alternate routes. What do you think ambulances do when a bridge collapses over a road? Just barrel through it? No, they take an alternate route. It's insulting to me that you think EMTs are [I]so incompetent[/I] that they wouldn't be communicating enough to take an alternate route around the protest.
The ambulance argument is a farce. [B][i]Nobody has actually died due to these highway blockages[/i][/B]. It's a made-up potentiality used to discredit the movement's reasoning and methodology, not something rooted in reality.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;49141941]Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.[/QUOTE]
I don't get this post. MLK headed the SCLC - Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were not part of the SCLC and were entirely unrelated. MLK is not the "leader of the civil rights movement," he was a leader of a specific organization.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49142773]My point is that [i]non-violent protesters[/i] blocking off a [i]single road[/i] that could [i]potentially[/i] lead to deaths is fucking nothing. [B]There are hundreds of other roads surrounding I-94 on multiple sides[/B] that allow ambulances to reach hospitals easy - I-94 is really only the main ambulance thoroughfare for the Hennepin County Medical Center, anywhere outside of downtown Minneapolis and you'll likely go to other areas unless it's urgent[/QUOTE]
Except:
[QUOTE]When police arrived and started rerouting traffic off the interstate and onto secondary roads, protesters tried to block that action as well, forming a human chain across the detour.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49141652]Arguing about their protesting methods is pointless.
The message of their protest(s) is hypocritical and a double-standard and stigmatizing our police force doesn't solve problems in the long run, police officers are humans and a part of the community too, they don't want to be put into situations where they might be forced to shoot someone but that's kind of their job description.
Once again this movement misses the big picture that these problems stem from gang/ghetto culture and until people are willing to work towards enriching African-Americans caught in that culture, instead of pressuring them into perpetuating it they'll continue to be disproportionately involved in crimes and thus disproportionately faced with police action.
The police are not your enemy, stop perpetuating narratives that only serve the media.
edit: Fuck it let's throw some facts out here.
Here's a link to the most up to date homicide statistics based on race of the offender against the race of the victim.
[url]https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls[/url]
If black lives matter they should be protesting black on black violence because that's by far the vast majority of homicide deaths suffered by blacks.
Reminder that [url=http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045214/00]African-Americans are approximately 13% of the total U.S. population,[/url] yet rival whites (77%) in total murders and killed more than 11 times more African-Americans than whites did in 2014.
These protesters aren't interested black lives, they're just perpetuating a narrative, refute their bullshit.[/QUOTE]
BLM is not focused on black-on-black violence, you're not wrong. But there are [i]literally fucking hundreds of organizations and marches every year that fight against it[/i]. Saying that "they need to deal with those issues first!" is incredibly ignorant - you're assuming that BLM is a voice for all black people for all issues of every kind. That's wrong. It is [i]strictly[/i] focused on [i]abuse of government-issues power[/i]. Black people killing black people aren't doing so under the authority of the state, and they aren't getting away with their crimes due to their power and status. Police officers are.
If you really think BLM is what is stigmatizing police, I don't know what to say. Police haven't been trusted by impoverished blacks [i]ever[/i]. Anti-police rhetoric has been around since before the Civil Rights Movement. You had the Deacons for Defense and Justice advocating for second amendment rights so that black individuals could [i]shoot cops attacking them[/i] in the 1960s. This isn't a new issue promoted by BLM, this is a tension that has existed for more than a century coming to a head. Implying that BLM is at fault for stigmatizing it is laughable - they're stigmatizing nothing, they're just bringing this already-existing stigma to your attention and saying "this is why this stigma exists."
Also, blaming "black culture" for perpetuating crime is laughable. The cycle of poverty and oppression is what perpetuates crime. The fact that black men are locked up and given criminal records and essentially pushed out of the job market in most of these areas is what perpetuates crime - desperation perpetuates crime, culture arises from that desperation. Try staying out of jail when you're a felon (so nobody will hire you), when you're on probation (so you have expenses to pay to the state that you can't afford), and you're dealing with drug addiction and a lack of all family support. Crime is a result of that desperation, perpetuated by the state in a cycle of oppression, not by rap music.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;49142799]Except:[/QUOTE]
Call me when protesters willingly block an ambulance with sirens on. Inconveniencing passenger cars and literally blocking emergency services are two entirely different things.
They're saying that it exists "Because they're racist oppressive assholes" when the reality is that African Americans commit ridiculously unproportional violent crime in the united states. They're blaming the police and ignoring the root causes.
They can NOT fix the issue by forcing police to look the other way when African-Americans commit crime, the justice system doesn't work that way. For this to stop we need to remove the factors that cause "impoverished blacks" to resort to violent crime, NOT pretend that they don't.
edit: How would they hear the sirens if they stopped an entire fucking high-way? The road would back up beyond your ability to hear or see to the end of the jam, where the ambulances would be coming from. If the cars can't drive forward they can't get out of the way.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49142841]They're saying that it exists "Because they're racist oppressive assholes" when the reality is that African Americans commit ridiculously unproportional violent crime in the united states. They're blaming the police and ignoring the root causes.
They can NOT fix the issue by forcing police to look the other way when African-Americans commit crime, the justice system doesn't work that way. For this to stop we need to remove the factors that cause "impoverished blacks" to resort to violent crime, NOT pretend that they don't.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that you propose that violence is the reason for this when the single largest proportion of the black prison population is there for non-violent drug offenses. Now that's on your record. Now you can't get a job to pay your probation fees. Now you can't afford rent or anything - what options do you have? Crime. Usually more drug trade. That descends into violence. It is cyclical, and encouraged by law enforcement tactics and the drug war.
Cops are also not individually racist, which is a very important distinction. The system the work for is institutionally racist - most individual cops are not individually racist. Some are.
Nobody wants police to just turn away from all black crime - that's absurd. BLM calls for increased police [i]accountability[/i], not reduced police presence. Reduced police presence ruins poor black neighborhoods.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49142773]My point is that [i]non-violent protesters[/i] blocking off a [i]single road[/i] that could [i]potentially[/i] lead to deaths is fucking nothing.[/QUOTE]
No, that's not what your fucking point was. You made a comparison with the Selma-Montgomery march and said that people dying there wasn't the fault of the protesters. The only reason one would do such an analogy would be to imply that deaths due to the blockade aren't the responsibility of the protesters. Don't try to backpedal now.
That doesn't make the system institutionally racist. There's no legislation stating that black people receive longer prison sentences than any other race for dealing drugs or committing crimes.
Impoverished blacks are in a bad spot and need HELP getting out of it, on that we agree. calling the system racist DOESN'T help because it doesn't address what's CAUSING it.
BLM Calling for the justice system to stop killing blacks does nothing to change the situation that blacks face, they need to raise awareness to what's causing blacks to get stuck in this cycle and work on fixing it, if that means laxing on drug laws, then say that, if it means reducing the pressure to act in certain ways that make fitting in out of their culture difficult that ALSO needs to be addressed. Their message does NOT say any of that.
[QUOTE=JohhnyCarson;49140534]For those using MLK, realize that he and the people of the time were innovators. They didn't use tactics of a previous generation to change society of a bygone era. No sir. What they did was thought about their plan, tactics and strategy. The key to changing things is being able to have empathy for your target. Empathy meaning, being able to put your self inside the minds of those you trying to reach. It is a skill.
These people do not have it.
For those who are not paying attention, protesting does not work any more. If you want to change things, you need to grab power.[/QUOTE]
yea Mr King was a pretty smart man and bold one but not unfair one but he would not compromise on anything than full equal rights which is why he won his fight.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49141264]Was the march from Selma to Montgomery not non-violent? The protesters were not the ones acting violently, but it led to death and suffering and loads of injuries. It led to the injury and death of people, but the protesters were not the ones directly doing it - it was through the actions of others that were inconvenienced.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
Cite me one example of someone dying in an ambulance due to these highway blockages. [I]Potential deaths[/I] aren't deaths. Yes, it's a massive inconvenience, that's the point. I have zero doubt that if an ambulance started blaring its sirens and going towards the crowd, that the crowd would part to let it through.
As far as I know, nobody has died due to these blockages. The argument is "but people might die because of these specific circumstances," ignoring the actual message they're saying and complaining about inconvenience. This is exactly why MLK condemned the white moderate - rather than noticing the injustices and acting in solidarity, they just say "why now it's gonna make me late to work do it later it's no big deal what if an ambulance shows up," totally ignoring the greater message and focusing on self-interest rather than on greater social changes.
You're also calling MLK's non-violent form of direct action "bullshit" by saying that, which is hilarious.[/QUOTE]
C o u l d h a v e
Reading comprehension, it's great to have
Blacklivesmatter will end when white peoples stop thinking black people are scary.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49142874]Interesting that you propose that violence is the reason for this when the single largest proportion of the black prison population is there for non-violent drug offenses. Now that's on your record. Now you can't get a job to pay your probation fees. Now you can't afford rent or anything - what options do you have? Crime. Usually more drug trade. That descends into violence. It is cyclical, and encouraged by law enforcement tactics and the drug war.
Cops are also not individually racist, which is a very important distinction. The system the work for is institutionally racist - most individual cops are not individually racist. Some are.
Nobody wants police to just turn away from all black crime - that's absurd. BLM calls for increased police [i]accountability[/i], not reduced police presence. Reduced police presence ruins poor black neighborhoods.[/QUOTE]
I'm not convinced that the war on drugs is ultimately an issue stemming from racism. Sure, there are discrepancies in the amount of harm a drug is capable of doing to someone and the actual punishment, but there are far too many compounding factors to boil the issue down to a buzzword like racism.
We often acknowledge that the laws of the land aren't exactly made by the people that are best informed on the scientific or medical knowledge relevant to the issues. We see this with climate change, we see this with reproductive issues, we see this with GMOs, and we see this with vaccines and other sorts of medicine. Lawmakers consistently ignore the prevailing scientific opinions of the time across the board. There's a lot of disinformation circulating around lots of drugs and relatively little is being done to handle it properly. This is true of both medicinal and recreational drugs.
In general I think the possession and use of most drugs should be decriminalized, but I have serious doubts as to whether such movements will ultimately lead to more racial parity or anything similar. Framing this particular issue as a racial one seems pretty absurd to be honest, but perhaps that has to do with my relatively close involvement with the pharmaceutical industry/research.
[QUOTE=_Axel;49142941]No, that's not what your fucking point was. You made a comparison with the Selma-Montgomery march and said that people dying there wasn't the fault of the protesters. The only reason one would do such an analogy would be to imply that deaths due to the blockade aren't the responsibility of the protesters. Don't try to backpedal now.[/QUOTE]
What deaths due to the blockade? Show me one. There [i]are none[/i].
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=1legmidget;49143318]I'm not convinced that the war on drugs is ultimately an issue stemming from racism. Sure, there are discrepancies in the amount of harm a drug is capable of doing to someone and the actual punishment, but there are far too many compounding factors to boil the issue down to a buzzword like racism.
We often acknowledge that the laws of the land aren't exactly made by the people that are best informed on the scientific or medical knowledge relevant to the issues. We see this with climate change, we see this with reproductive issues, we see this with GMOs, and we see this with vaccines and other sorts of medicine. Lawmakers consistently ignore the prevailing scientific opinions of the time across the board. There's a lot of disinformation circulating around lots of drugs and relatively little is being done to handle it properly. This is true of both medicinal and recreational drugs.
In general I think the possession and use of most drugs should be decriminalized, but I have serious doubts as to whether such movements will ultimately lead to more racial parity or anything similar. Framing this particular issue as a racial one seems pretty absurd to be honest, but perhaps that has to do with my relatively close involvement with the pharmaceutical industry/research.[/QUOTE]
The war on drugs absolutely stems from racism. Ghettoes stem from racism. Why couldn't black people take advantage of the enormous economic upturn post-WW2 that gave rise to the modern middle class? Because traditionally "black neighborhoods" were blacklisted and realtors would refuse to sell to black individuals. The Civil Rights Movement even addressed this type of housing racism. It prevented an entire generation of black youth from taking advantage of the economic growth post-WW2 that white Americans were able to capitalize massively on and build familial wealth.
Why did crack cocaine have a hundred times the punishment as powder cocaine up until a few years ago when Obama reduced it to 10 times? Because it was used more often by black people - powder cocaine was upper-class and traditionally white. There's no other explanation - they are the same drug.
I agree with you on a lot of issues, even that police brutality and police accountability isn't [i]strictly[/i] a racial issue, much like the war on drugs isn't [i]strictly[/i] racial. But race plays an aspect in this, and ignoring race entirely in situations like this is incredibly damaging.
The Ferguson DOJ report is what I tend to cite, because it shows how the judge, police department, and city officials essentially ran a race-based ticketing profit scheme that relied on impoverished black people to fund the city's excesses through absurd arrest rates (95% black!) and throwing out arrest warrants to anyone they could find - over half the population of the entire city. Clearly, not every city suffers from institutional racism on this extreme of a level, but recognizing these racial disparities helps realize how the [i]non-racial[/i] issue of a lack of police accountability is disproportionately affecting black Americans.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49143326]absurd arrest rates (95% black!) and throwing out arrest warrants to anyone they could find - over half the population of the entire city.[/QUOTE]
Can you cite these? That DOES sound absurd wtf?
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;49141360]Are you talking about the guy where the protesters attempted to access the car using the door where his child was and then he drove off in an attempt to get his family out of immediate danger?
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
should've let his child get kidnapped smh damn racists[/QUOTE]
No
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49142952]That doesn't make the system institutionally racist. There's no legislation stating that black people receive longer prison sentences than any other race for dealing drugs or committing crimes.
Impoverished blacks are in a bad spot and need HELP getting out of it, on that we agree. calling the system racist DOESN'T help because it doesn't address what's CAUSING it.
BLM Calling for the justice system to stop killing blacks does nothing to change the situation that blacks face, they need to raise awareness to what's causing blacks to get stuck in this cycle and work on fixing it, if that means laxing on drug laws, then say that, if it means reducing the pressure to act in certain ways that make fitting in out of their culture difficult that ALSO needs to be addressed. Their message does NOT say any of that.[/QUOTE]
Just like after the fall of Jim Crow, we've moved from [i]directly[/i] racist laws to indirectly racist ones. I already mentioned the crack cocaine example - punished more heavily than powder cocaine. Maybe it wasn't because it was used by poor blacks, but the reasoning behind it doesn't matter - it disproportionately affected them while white cocaine users got away with hundreds of times less jail time.
I'm addressing the issues behind the cycle of violence. What needs to happen is that people need to stop parroting shit like "they need to deal with black on black violence" - because they are. There are hundreds of protests on it yearly. There are organizations that work to prevent it. There are after-school programs that try to prevent black youth violence. There are thousands and thousands of people working on this.
One of the [i]major[/i] issues is police profiling. Stopping that by holding police accountable for unjust murders and brutal behavior is one method to get rid of this problem that [i]explicitly[/i] affects black people. It helps, along with campaigning to end the war on drugs and donating to nonprofits to help inner-city children. These are all methods that reduce the impact of the cycle and offer opportunities to escape it. BLM is a proponent of one of these methods - not all of them at once.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49143378]Can you cite these? That DOES sound absurd wtf?[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf"]Full DOJ Report on Ferguson (PDF)[/URL]. Worth a full read, the evidence is completely damning.
If you don't want to read the whole thing, here's an [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/ferguson-police-racial-discrimination.html"]NYT article that summarizes the DOJ's findings.[/URL]
So today protesters moved to the police precinct and blockaded the whole place. They threw bricks at police vehicles and even some officers. The thing is starting to get out of hand.
[QUOTE=cardfan212;49143481]So today protesters moved to the police precinct and blockaded the whole place. They threw bricks at police vehicles and even some officers. The thing is starting to get out of hand.[/QUOTE]
Blockading the police precinct? Amazing! I support that 150% They are actually protesting the people they have an issue with.
Throwing bricks? I don't agree with that at all.
But kudos for protesting the police AT the police station.
Well time to pepper spray the cunts
Maybe call in the fire dept. And spray those assholes with some cool refreshing water
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49143326]
The war on drugs absolutely stems from racism.[/QUOTE]
You've taken a lot of important but unrelated issues and mashed them into this particular aspect of your argument, so I'm only going to tackle the drug aspects, particularly those surrounding crack.
[QUOTE]
Why did crack cocaine have a hundred times the punishment as powder cocaine up until a few years ago when Obama reduced it to 10 times? Because it was used more often by black people - powder cocaine was upper-class and traditionally white. There's no other explanation - they are the same drug.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://wallacebullock.org/2014/JEH-2014_No_11-Wallace_pp_139-160-released.pdf"]This article[/URL] provides a pretty good history of the legislation revolving around crack cocaine regulation. Within that article you will find that:
--The CIA was pushing cocaine for their own nefarious reasons and likely saw crack as a competing product in their schemes
--Johnny St. Valentine Brown testified before the house with fabricated credentials (he pretended to be a pharmacologist and went to jail for it) and stated 20g of crack was worse than a kilo of cocaine
--The Congressional Black Caucus supported the proposed measures in the 80's
How are any of these issues racially motivated? To me, being on the scientific end of things, this looks like more of a failure of lawmakers to follow scientific/medical recommendations for a multitude of reasons as opposed to a bill constructed with racist intent. The wide support from the Black Caucus at the time of the bill's passing also seems to support this. The medical establishment asked for clinics and for the rise of crack to be treated as a health issue as opposed to a criminal issue. Lawmakers listened to a quack and played up to a knee jerk media fueled witch hunt and passed a really awful law.
[QUOTE]I agree with you on a lot of issues, even that police brutality and police accountability isn't [i]strictly[/i] a racial issue, much like the war on drugs isn't [i]strictly[/i] racial. But race plays an aspect in this, and ignoring race entirely in situations like this is incredibly damaging.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not asking you or anyone to ignore race. The racial effects are absolutely important. If we want to stop stuff like this from happening in the future though we really need to understand how and why these things happened in the first place. Using crack as an example, we need to be highly critical of any media scaremongering and really look to the credible sources behind whatever is going on. Had the medical establishment had enough balls to confront Brown when he was on his high horse, maybe the bill wouldn't have passed in the first place. Hell, maybe we would have side-stepped the war on drugs all together. Had we handled the red scare with more intelligence and transparency, perhaps the CIA wouldn't have gotten involved in such blatant corruption and there wouldn't have been as many drug users.
Extrapolating to BLM, if people fail to truly address the underlying causes of the issues we face today, we're going to patch the wrong things and who knows what the effects might be. The Anti-Drug Abuse law of 86 was passed with bipartisan and minority support and ended up causing way more problems than it solved. If BLM protesters aren't careful, they might get exactly what they're demanding with absolutely abhorrent results, and that seems all too likely so long as people keep getting the facts wrong.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49143326]The Ferguson DOJ report is what I tend to cite, because it shows how the judge, police department, and city officials essentially ran a race-based ticketing profit scheme that relied on impoverished black people to fund the city's excesses through absurd arrest rates (95% black!) and throwing out arrest warrants to anyone they could find - over half the population of the entire city. Clearly, not every city suffers from institutional racism on this extreme of a level, but recognizing these racial disparities helps realize how the [I]non-racial[/I] issue of a lack of police accountability is disproportionately affecting black Americans.[/QUOTE]
Have you read the report? It doesn't really show any of that. All it does is show that black people got in trouble more and assumes racism as the cause. It doesn't even try to address the other issues they found like black people being way more likely to resist arrest or be aggressive towards the officer.
There's no attempt at all to actually show causation.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49143707]Have you read the report? It doesn't really show any of that. All it does is show that black people got in trouble more and assumes racism as the cause. It doesn't even try to address the other issues they found like black people being way more likely to resist arrest or be aggressive towards the officer.
There's no attempt at all to actually show causation.[/QUOTE]
We've had this argument at least 3 times and I've never convinced you - you suppose that it's all due to something other than racism, no matter what points I bring against that position, and I suppose that it is due to racism. Why are blacks more aggressive to the cops? The only answer, other than a well-deserved distrust and tension towards police, is that they're biologically different and primed to be aggressive, which is absurd. I won't argue with someone who holds that racism has absolutely nothing to do with it and willingly ignores how racism has shaped this country in the past.
I've read it several times - they report on a case where a routine traffic stop ended with a guy getting 8 different charges, one being "making a false declaration" for saying his name was Mike rather than Michael. The DOJ does conclude that failure to comply charges were abused - even when people were exercising their right not to comply, like when they couldn't be legally detained, the officer would detain them for failure to comply.
I refuse to believe that 43% of the population only committed 7% of the crime. That's absurd.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49143385]No[/QUOTE]
Oh ok
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49143737]We've had this argument at least 3 times and I've never convinced you - you suppose that it's all due to something other than racism, no matter what points I bring against that position, and I suppose that it is due to racism.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that you see correlation and assume racism. I don't even rule out racism, but I definitely am not going to stand for broke on one argument when multiple possibilities exist.
[QUOTE]Why are blacks more aggressive to the cops? The only answer, other than a well-deserved distrust and tension towards police, is that they're biologically different and primed to be aggressive, which is absurd.[/QUOTE]
What? Honestly, the fact that you say things like this makes it obvious that you haven't even tried to think about the issue or listened to anyone that argued that other side. There are obviously other alternatives. In fact, I've literally never made the argument that you mentioned. Ever. Mine would go something like this:
The culture of distrust and victimhood pressed onto young black kids as they're growing up creates an undeserved tension. I've seen this first hand. A black guy I new, and still know, pretty well grew up in an extremely liberal family. He was taught his entire life to not trust the cops, and that institutional racism lies everywhere. He held this view until he got a job with the LAPD. Almost immediately he started to change views. Ironically, he's now one of the most anti BLM people I know. He and his mother don't get along very well because his mom is so offended by his views.
[QUOTE]I won't argue with someone who holds that racism has absolutely nothing to do with it and willingly ignores how racism has shaped this country in the past.[/QUOTE]
Again, you won't see me deny that racism has an effect seen today, but that has literally nothing to do with the modern line of all statistical differencing being directly caused by racism.
As an example, I fully expect that racism of the past would help lead to a disparity in wealth between the average black and average white person.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49141652]
edit: Fuck it let's throw some facts out here.
Here's a link to the most up to date homicide statistics based on race of the offender against the race of the victim.
[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls[/URL]
If black lives matter they should be protesting black on black violence because that's by far the vast majority of homicide deaths suffered by blacks.
Reminder that [URL="http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045214/00"]African-Americans are approximately 13% of the total U.S. population,[/URL] yet rival whites (77%) in total murders and killed more than 11 times more African-Americans than whites did in 2014.
These protesters aren't interested black lives, they're just perpetuating a narrative, refute their bullshit.[/QUOTE]
I think the reason they care more about police killing black people is that we should hold the police up to a higher standard than some joe shmoe.
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