[QUOTE=QuikSilvers;15949591]Chippay, nice fucking argument you brought. Cunt.[/QUOTE]
thanks bro, your shitty posting will be remembered in my heart forever because of this kind compliment
Any time.
Just started watching ferinheight 9/11. Hopefully it's good.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949392]I'd like you to stop using buzzwords you heard on MSNBC and explain what this recession is, what it's doing and how it's going to be solved.
phtttttt... I will keep this simple. Jesus I really didn't want to stay in this thread for hours.
This recession is a result of the recurring downturn of our economic system.
Due to the sagging amount of transactions companies are breaking down.
Apparently the Solution is to inject money into it, to get everything back on its feet.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949392]Capitalism is a system at which individuals and conglomerates can exchange goods and services for a price determined by the seller. What maintains the fairness of this price is competition, and the consumer's ability to favor the cheaper seller. The same applies to quality of product. The idea behind capitalism is a self regulatory economic policy in which instead of the established government regulating profit and price, that power belongs to the consumer. The consumer always has a demand for higher quality and lower prices, and where there is a demand there is, or will soon be, a product. There is profit to be made in satisfying the masses.[/QUOTE]
What happens to individuals who don't have the necessary means to take part in the cycle?
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949392]Conversely, I suppose you would trust in a government's competence to regulate this for us. Right. Governments can't even fucking regulate themselves, let alone something as complex and unpredictable as a global economy.[/QUOTE]
No, I wouldn't trust in anyone. Trade, as simple as it is, doesn't work in a complex world.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949583]If the numbers that book cites are not publicly available, they aren't trustworthy to begin with.
Find the numbers it cites and then post them.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://iraqforsale.org/facts.php[/url]
Sources for a documentary on the subject.
We love him and hate him for his gelatinous existence.
Is profiting off wars really a direct result of capitalism anyway? Countries have fought wars with the key objective of making money for centuries.
[QUOTE=Chippay;15949613]thanks bro, your shitty posting will be remembered in my heart forever because of this kind compliment[/QUOTE]
For someone who talks about being socially advanced beyond taking the internet seriously you sure do bitch about other people posting pretty often.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949583]If the numbers that book cites are not publicly available, they aren't trustworthy to begin with.
Find the numbers it cites and then post them.[/QUOTE]
the book has several pages of citations i'm not sure where you got the idea that it's not publicly available
you can't ask for sources and then say "no not those sources"
embrace your beloved capitalism and buy the book
[url]http://www.costofwar.com/[/url]
that war sure is profitable, huh?
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949642]For someone who talks about being socially advanced beyond taking the internet seriously you sure do bitch about other people posting pretty often.[/QUOTE]
yeah
i do
[QUOTE=Melkor;15949629][url]http://iraqforsale.org/facts.php[/url]
Sources for a documentary on the subject.[/QUOTE]
I mean numbers, not numbers as interpreted by this side of the debate.
Find the relevant numbers in that list in an unbiased setting and then post them. It isn't difficult.
we actually went to war in iraq because bush personally felt that you can't be a good president if you aren't a conquering hero wartime president this is actually a fact (I am looking for the link atm but I am 100% dead certain that it is true because it's an actual account of what Bush himself said before his presidency)
it wasn't based on money, resources, or anything like that, it was all personal ambition and now over half a million people are dead because of it
[QUOTE=Chippay;15949646]the book has several pages of citations i'm not sure where you got the idea that it's not publicly available
you can't ask for sources and then say "no not those sources"
embrace your beloved capitalism and buy the book[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to buy the book.
If you own it, go through the citations and post them.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949414]That's like saying we need a climate that isn't affected by the sun.
You said arms manufacturers profit on waging wars for the sale of their firearms, implying their profit is dependent on that. Glock clearly hasn't been the center of any wars, and yet they are both extremely successful and extremely profitable.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about the big guys (guns) heh. Lockheed Martin, Oshkosh, who just happen to get another mutli-million (1.-something billion if I remember right) dollar contract by the US gov. for a new version of their Sand Cat troup transporter or whatever it was.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15948723]No, see, that was a legitimate point. That you ignored.[/quote]
No, see, I don't consider telling me 'nawww no wayyyy' to be a legitimate point.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15948723]Capitalism and Socialism are economic policies.[/quote]
No. Unless you consider a regulated market to be socialism.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15948723]They have extremely minimal involvement in law, military and war.[/quote]
You've got to be kidding. Whatever class in power is what society revolves around. In slave societies, where the dominant relations of production were slaves-slavers, such as the Roman empire, the laws and the rest of the aspects of society revolved around this. For example, slavery was legal. Why? Because slavers were the dominant class, they were the ones that produced society's wealth and owned the means of production. How did this system come about? A combination of old hunter-gatherer societies discovering agriculture and enslaving their enemies and forcing them to do the labor work of production.
In feudalism, it was feudal lords such as Kings who were the dominant class. Why? Because it was the few very rich and successful slave owners that used their mass amount of wealth to gain power and develop the idea that it is inherently right for a monarch to hold all power. This idea was widely accepted for a long time. It just felt like the truth. And why? Because, quite simply, monarchs held power over everything, the whole of society. It was in their class interest to do this, to coerce people to accept their rule. And they certainly had the wealth, the very single most important cornerstone of economy and a very powerful tool of coercion, to spread this idea by whatever means.
Capitalism developed from skilled workers and serfs who bought themselves out of serfdom, who had enough money to employ others to work their capital. These early capitalists made ever expanding profits that eventually made them hit a wall, the problem of the feudal lords, who, to their dismay, taxed the hell out of them. The capitalists didn't like this, why? Because it is the class interest of capitalists to make the most profit, which was obstructed by people like the Kings and the Pope. Feudalism was becoming outdated. And capitalist revolutions took place, such as Oliver Cromwell's and others in the 1600's.
So as feudal lords had created a new class with their societal reforms, capitalism did the same. They formed, what's called, the proletariat. A class of people that can do nothing else to live but sell their labor in exchange for a wage that is not the full value of what they labored to produce, what's called, exploitation. Capitalism later developed into imperialism, where capitalists use cheap and easily accessible third world resources and labor to produce and make even bigger profits, and at the same time, trump the competition.
Cecil Rhodes, an owner of a business giant in the UK (which was the epitome of capitalism at the time of the 19th century), puts surprisingly marxist perspective from, not only a non-marxist, but someone who would be deeply opposed to them!
[quote]We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap labour that is available from the natives in the colonies; the colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories; the Empire, as I have always said, is a bread and butter question. If we want to avoid class struggle in the UK, we must become imperialists.[/quote]
If even capitalists recognize class struggle, then what can we say about marxism other then we can conclude its analyses are true?
So, you see, there is much more to Marxism then just what you think is some arbitrary idea of socialism or collectivism. It's a method of societal analysis and also an economic theory. And with it, Marx predicted that capitalism would end when one of its many contradictions caused its collapse by the hands of the lower class, the proletariat. A few hundred years ago, the capitalists did quite the same to their former lords, the kings, queens, the pope, or otherwise, feudal lords.
In addition, if you are even remotely interested in physics, you may have heard of dialectics. Marx applied this physical theory to society when he asked himself why and how society has progressed. The result was the discovery of classes, or forces, that were absolutely opposed to eachother, like stars and planets, or electrons and protons, but were still absolutely needed, like what's needed for the formation of an atom or a solar system. In this case, society and its socio-economic system.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15948723]Furthermore, to say capitalism encourages war? Please. It's cheaper to negotiate than it is to fight.[/QUOTE]
Are you being intentionally ignorant? Tell me, what was Iraq about then? Do you think defense contractors and oil companies just sitting around? What about the mass amount of foreign intervention that also included the US in the Russian Civil war? The supporting and forming of far right groups and dictators to fight the spread of socialism? The suspension of French and Italian autonomy because they were about to vote in communist parties after World War two? The intentional mismanagement of Colonial India to stop them from developing so British capitalists could exploit them and their resources without the worry of domestic competition? What about the institutionalized oppression of the labor movement and its activists so american capitalists could force their laborers to work in horrible conditions and miserable pay? What about the repression of the first red scare that was tied into socialists opposing the terrible first world war that was partly fought for economic gains over German capitalists? The smashing of the Paris commune? [b]What about leaving the majority of the world's population living like animals in the third world?[/b] I could go on for ages! I haven't even mentioned how capitalism has corrupted our democracy and made our freedom second priority after profits, or how we spend billions and billions of tax payer dollars (which are mostly derived from the short-handed pay of a laborer, and could be used to fund more people-oriented things, such as education!) to fund our gigantic military that only exists to enforce economic interests.
Tell me, oh little libertarian, what is so great about capitalism in this light, and subsequently in reality?
Honestly, this is what makes me proud to say socialism is about helping the common man, not the top wealthy 1% of the population.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;15949662]we actually went to war in iraq because bush personally felt that you can't be a good president if you aren't a conquering hero wartime president this is actually a fact
it wasn't based on money, resources, or anything like that, it was all personal ambition and now over half a million people are dead because of it[/QUOTE]
There's so many reasons for the war that people cite and so many of the just make no fucking sense.
Honestly, what's most likely is that Bush thought he was doing right by America and the world. Only Bush is fucking stupid and he was wrong.
[QUOTE=QuikSilvers;15949652][url]http://www.costofwar.com/[/url]
that war sure is profitable, huh?[/QUOTE]
For those who receive all that spent money, yeah.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949679]I'm not going to buy the book.
If you own it, go through the citations and post them.[/QUOTE]
embrace your beloved capitalism lankist, i'm not big government here to give you a fact bailout
you've the other sources posted so why should anyone indulge your obviously biased opinion
[QUOTE=Chippay;15949725]embrace your beloved capitalism lankist, i'm not big government here to give you a fact bailout
you've the other sources posted so why should anyone indulge your obviously biased opinion[/QUOTE]
So you concede, then.
[editline]07:41PM[/editline]
[quote]What about leaving the majority of the world's population living like animals in the third world?[/quote]
I think it's not my fuckin job to solve their problems.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949729]So you concede, then.[/QUOTE]
concede what? you asked for a source and i gave it to you
once again you're lashing out at imaginary foes, rather than the people who are actually arguing with you (and tearing you to threads)
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949729]
I think it's not my fuckin job to solve their problems.[/QUOTE]
And here we see the heart (or lack of it) and mind of the typical Ayn Randist.
Chippay sums up libertarianism and ayn rand pretty well, 'fuck you i got mine'.
In addition, it's their hard labor that let's you live the way you do, I'm afraid.
So, I'm guessing you have nothing to answer the rest of my argument with if you're stuck attacking this one tiny bit.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949414]That's like saying we need a climate that isn't affected by the sun.
[/QUOTE]
Well what do we do? We kill 2 birds with one stone and live happily ever after. (meaning we get rid of both. and yes it would work)
Sure, getting rid of the sun and our climate wouldn't be helpful but they're not the subject at hand.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949701]There's so many reasons for the war that people cite and so many of the just make no fucking sense.
Honestly, what's most likely is that Bush thought he was doing right by America and the world. Only Bush is fucking stupid and he was wrong.[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah, I'm sure that's how he rationalized it, but he did want to be a glorious wartime president and falsified the whole WMD shit as a pretense to invade Iraq.
[QUOTE=Lankist;15949729]
I think it's not my fuckin job to solve their problems.[/QUOTE]
But it's their job to feed you with exotic fruits, grain and coffee?
[QUOTE=Chippay;15949750]concede what? you asked for a source and i gave it to you
once again you're lashing out at imaginary foes, rather than the people who are actually arguing with you (and tearing you to threads)[/QUOTE]
Threads?
[editline]07:52PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=drive_the_hive;15949849]But it's their job to feed you with exotic fruits, grain and coffee?[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure it is, yeah. Assuming that's their job.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;15945706]Why does he have a gun, i thought he was anti-gun.[/QUOTE]
probably to shoot down any logical ideas that come his way.
[editline]06:56PM[/editline]
:rimshot:
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