Even after the approval Chelsea Manning is still being refused gender treatment - Polidicks

It's an expensive operation that isn't a life or death emergency. He can live without it.

[QUOTE=Battledrobe;45784262]It's an expensive operation that isn't a life or death emergency. He can live without it.[/QUOTE] She. Her name is literally in the title as She. I find it hard to imagine that you could be alive in this day and age and not either heard somebody use 'he' or 'it' as a pejorative and realised it was a nasty thing to do, or heard the discussion about the correct use of personal pronouns and taken it on board. And, as I've said before, you and I can't possibly imagine how tormented one must feel to be a woman in a man's body or vice versa. I don't want to speculate on her mental health, because I have literally read nothing about her frame of mind, but I imagine anybody in that situation would be immediately experiencing or very much at risk for depression. Look up the statistics for transfolk and suicide, then come back and rethink your position

[QUOTE=Maloof?;45784355]She. Her name is literally in the title as She. I find it hard to imagine that you could be alive in this day and age and not either heard somebody use 'he' or 'it' as a pejorative and realised it was a nasty thing to do, or heard the discussion about the correct use of personal pronouns and taken it on board. And, as I've said before, you and I can't possibly imagine how tormented one must feel to be a woman in a man's body or vice versa. I don't want to speculate on her mental health, because I have literally read nothing about her frame of mind, but I imagine anybody in that situation would be immediately experiencing or very much at risk for depression. Look up the statistics for transfolk and suicide, then come back and rethink your position[/QUOTE] A cheaper option to prevent him from killing himself would be to place him in an environment where he can't harm himself, should he threaten to. An empty cell with a straightjacket, for instance. Again, it isn't a requisite for him to live. There are thousands of other cases of inmates with mental conditions not receiving any sort of help regarding their issues, because it's expensive and they don't immediately need it. In this case, Manning's treatment would be expensive AND it isn't an immediate requirement. Therefore it would be a waste of taxpayer money.

[QUOTE=Battledrobe;45784393]A cheaper option to prevent him from killing himself would be to place him in an environment where he can't harm himself, should he threaten to. An empty cell with a straightjacket, for instance. Again, it isn't a requisite for him to live. There are thousands of other cases of inmates with mental conditions not receiving any sort of help regarding their issues, because it's expensive and they don't immediately need it. In this case, Manning's treatment would be expensive AND it isn't an immediate requirement. Therefore it would be a waste of taxpayer money.[/QUOTE] Well then maybe Manning could set a precedent, the US can take a look at their legal system and make some changes and y'all wouldn't have the disgustingly high levels of re-offending that you have at the moment. Why are you still calling her 'him'. You've gone from potentially ignorant to asshole in a single post

[QUOTE=yodafart9;45781382]Breaking the law is disregard to the rights of others and then expecting your rights to be respected as a result. Yeah.[/QUOTE] It seems you do not understand what a right is. It cannot be taken from you.

[QUOTE=Th3applek1d;45779619]Or maybe neutral pronouns like they/them? [I]Why should we automatically assume one is a male?[/I] Also, does this remind anyone of the episode(s) of OITNB where they started denying Sophia of her hormones? [I]Please tell me im not the only one[/I][/QUOTE] On this point, only [url=http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Gates-How-Many-People-LGBT-Apr-2011.pdf]around 0.3%[/url] of the population is transgender. That makes it very safe to assume that you're stepping on no one when you use the pronoun "he" for a person who looks like a guy. And of those 0.3%, a portion (I have no idea how many of those have come out and dress up as whatever gender they identify with) of that group would be identifiable as the gender they identify as, so the real rate of offending people really should be incredibly low. If there isn't any visual cue that your gender might not correspond with your sex, you're gonna have to tell me or else you're just gonna be a "he (or whatever)" - sorry. And I don't really understand here - is she willing to pay for this surgery and being denied or is she being denied in having her surgery paid for? I don't know the rules of prison healthcare either, so there's that.

[QUOTE=Battledrobe;45784393]A cheaper option to prevent him from killing himself would be to place him in an environment where he can't harm himself, should he threaten to. An empty cell with a straightjacket, for instance. Again, it isn't a requisite for him to live. There are thousands of other cases of inmates with mental conditions not receiving any sort of help regarding their issues, because it's expensive and they don't immediately need it. In this case, Manning's treatment would be expensive AND it isn't an immediate requirement. Therefore it would be a waste of taxpayer money.[/QUOTE] Such a punishment would be pretty inhumane. Something like putting her in a straight jacket without her necessary procedure is imposing a pretty large amount of suffering on her against her, I'd go so far to call it light torture. Fact of the matter is, the procedure was approved and so she should receive it, and that's the end of it. [QUOTE=SeamanStains;45784190]It's a bit of an advanced treatment to give someone considering the usual quality of prison healthcare in the USA, no? Just because he's a high profile case doesn't mean he should be given special treatment when considering the overall shittiness of the rest of the system.[/QUOTE] Call me ambitious, but we need to start somewhere, and Chelsea's case isn't a bad place to do it. Like Maloof said, this case should set a precedent.

[QUOTE=RosettaStoned;45783650]I really hate how Facepunch can't debate anything related to transgender issues without the discussion devolving into patronizing name calling and dumb spamming.[/QUOTE] Um actually this is the most level-headed and reasonable debate thread I've seen for quite some time on such a sensitive subject as transgenderism. [editline]24th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=RustledJimmys;45784120]Why does FP get such a raging erection from arguing about LGBT stuff.[/QUOTE] Because it's evident a lot of people need to be educated about these issues.

[QUOTE=Tinter;45784419]It seems you do not understand what a right is. It cannot be taken from you.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what right you are referring to. Prisoners have access to healthcare it's just really basic.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;45778512]So if you had cockrot and anal hemorrhoids, then committed a crime you should also be refused medical treatment? I mean you did break the law after all.[/QUOTE] "transgenderism basically cockrot and anal hemorrhoids"

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;45784699]I'm not sure what right you are referring to. Prisoners have access to healthcare it's just really basic.[/QUOTE] Not any in particular, I was just pointing out, that the person I was quoting was misunderstanding what rights are.

[QUOTE=Tinter;45784747]Not any in particular, I was just pointing out, that the person I was quoting was misunderstanding what rights are.[/QUOTE] ah right my bad in a lot of countries you do lose certain rights in prison though, including the UK

once you become prisoner in the us you lose majority of your rights

[QUOTE=Tinter;45784419]It seems you do not understand what a right is. It cannot be taken from you.[/QUOTE] Isn't freedom a human right, and for some reason we lock people away in prisons and take away that right ? But you said it can not be taken away from you, I don't understand... I also don't understand why a health care system would pay such an expensive operation for a prisoner, when so many people there don't even get basic health care for free. If it's in UK or somewhere else I would understand.

[QUOTE=AntonioR;45784992]Isn't freedom a human right, and for some reason we lock people away in prisons and take away that right ? But you said it can not be taken away from you, I don't understand... I also don't understand why a health care system would pay such an expensive operation for a prisoner, when so many people there don't even get basic health care for free. If it's in UK or somewhere else I would understand.[/QUOTE] it shouldn't matter why, they approved it and then they're going back on it, not okay no matter how you look at it.

Welcome to the wild and wonderful world of 'Waiting Periods' Yes they are a thing, and not everything happens instantly, even though you always think they will.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;45784577] Call me ambitious, but we need to start somewhere, and Chelsea's case isn't a bad place to do it. Like Maloof said, this case should set a precedent.[/QUOTE] No this is quite simply the worst case for it to start. Its controversial without the surgery due to how she committed treason against her own nation.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45784497]On this point, only [url=http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Gates-How-Many-People-LGBT-Apr-2011.pdf]around 0.3%[/url] of the population is transgender. That makes it very safe to assume that you're stepping on no one when you use the pronoun "he" for a person who looks like a guy. And of those 0.3%, a portion (I have no idea how many of those have come out and dress up as whatever gender they identify with) of that group would be identifiable as the gender they identify as, so the real rate of offending people really should be incredibly low. If there isn't any visual cue that your gender might not correspond with your sex, you're gonna have to tell me or else you're just gonna be a "he (or whatever)" - sorry. And I don't really understand here - is she willing to pay for this surgery and being denied or is she being denied in having her surgery paid for? I don't know the rules of prison healthcare either, so there's that.[/QUOTE] I'm saying why should we assume anyone is a male automatically. Like randoms on the internet, why should we assume automagically that they are male? I mean, sure, a lot of them are, but we shouldn't just assume it.

[QUOTE=Sally;45785317]No this is quite simply the worst case for it to start. Its controversial without the surgery due to how she committed treason against her own nation.[/QUOTE] You make a fair point. However, what other case was/is as prolific as this one? Even then, it could be argued that regardless of the crime she commit, treatments like these shouldn't be denied based on such factors. [QUOTE=Th3applek1d;45785420]I'm saying why should we assume anyone is a male automatically. Like randoms on the internet, why should we assume automagically that they are male? I mean, sure, a lot of them are, but we shouldn't just assume it.[/QUOTE] I think it just has to do with the history of the culture. I'm sure if you took a census of your most frequently visited sites it would be a male majority. I don't think that's how it should stay, but it's just how it has been and thus one can rationally default to male pronouns for strangers on the internet. Even if they're proven wrong and the individual is not male then no harm no foul, a simple and polite correction isn't anything difficult.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45785498]Well, .3% of the population is trans, and 49.6% of the population is female, it's usually safe to assume that when you encounter the other 49.4% of the population who's male, they identify as a male. You can, automatically assume someone identifies as what they look like, and be correct the absolute vast majority of the time. That being said, if you do run into the .3% of the population that is trans, and they correct you, you should use what ever they are identifying as.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if you understand what I am saying. I'm talking about people who you haven't seen before, aka forums, imageboards, etc.

[QUOTE=Battledrobe;45784393]In this case, Manning's treatment would be expensive AND [b]it isn't an immediate requirement.[/b] Therefore it would be a waste of taxpayer money.[/QUOTE] Except it is? Hey everyone I got a great idea. Let's not give a clinically depressed person their meds. Its not immediate right? Seriously if the best arguement you have is the "waste" of tax payer money you already lost this debate.

[QUOTE=Battledrobe;45784393]A cheaper option to prevent him from killing himself would be to place him in an environment where he can't harm himself, should he threaten to. An empty cell with a straightjacket, for instance. Again, it isn't a requisite for him to live. There are thousands of other cases of inmates with mental conditions not receiving any sort of help regarding their issues, because it's expensive and they don't immediately need it. In this case, Manning's treatment would be expensive AND it isn't an immediate requirement. Therefore it would be a waste of taxpayer money.[/QUOTE] "A whole tiny fraction of one cent from me? Bah, too much!" No one here is asking you to tear off an arm or a leg for one individual.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;45786341]Except it is? Hey everyone I got a great idea. Let's not give a clinically depressed person their meds. Its not immediate right? Seriously if the best arguement you have is the "waste" of tax payer money you already lost this debate.[/QUOTE] An elective and not medically acute procedure is not comparable to signing someones death warrant. Manning can WAIT until the DoD figures out standard operating procedures and ways to go about actually providing her the treatment. An example of an immediate procedure is someone who's appendix has burst because if left untreated for a very short period of time will most likely result in systemic infection and then death. HRT is not a medically significant procedure because it does not prevent unnecessary loss of limb or life if not treated immediately. "But but but THE MENTAL ANGUISH!" There are a lot of people who deal with lots of significant shit in their lives and Transgenderism isn't the be all-end all of horrific mental illness. There are MANY ways to cope with difficult situations and not kill yourself without solely relying on HRT. Actually, I think it's kind of insulting to the individual to insist that the only way they could cling on to life is with HRT. Kind of insinuates that they're a weak person incapable of persevering through suffering.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;45788873]There are MANY ways to cope with difficult situations and not kill yourself without solely relying on HRT. Actually, I think it's kind of insulting to the individual to insist that the only way they could cling on to life is with HRT. Kind of insinuates that they're a weak person incapable of persevering through suffering.[/QUOTE] Of course thats true in a hypothetical sense so may I ask why the hell arn't transgender people seeking different opportunities rather than seeking a the sole controversial one? Oh wait its because it doesn't work that way. At all. GID is- [QUOTE]But but but THE MENTAL ANGUISH![/QUOTE] No. Yeah sure insinuating that a pill is the only thing that keeps transgender individuals alive is demeaning, but ultimately its the best way to cope with GID. Think of it as medication for the clinically depressed as has been mentioned before. Why do you take so much of an issue with this, to the point you need to belittle it or attack other points to delegitimize the effort?

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;45788873]An elective and not medically acute procedure is not comparable to signing someones death warrant. Manning can WAIT until the DoD figures out standard operating procedures and ways to go about actually providing her the treatment. An example of an immediate procedure is someone who's appendix has burst because if left untreated for a very short period of time will most likely result in systemic infection and then death. HRT is not a medically significant procedure because it does not prevent unnecessary loss of limb or life if not treated immediately. "But but but THE MENTAL ANGUISH!" There are a lot of people who deal with lots of significant shit in their lives and Transgenderism isn't the be all-end all of horrific mental illness. There are MANY ways to cope with difficult situations and not kill yourself without solely relying on HRT. [B] Actually, I think it's kind of insulting to the individual to insist that the only way they could cling on to life is with HRT.[/B] Kind of insinuates that they're a weak person incapable of persevering through suffering.[/QUOTE] how the fuck is this even relevant when the person in question is [B][I]REQUESTING[/I][/B] the treatment (which got approved) and isn't getting it?

[QUOTE=Th3applek1d;45785420]I'm saying why should we assume anyone is a male automatically. Like randoms on the internet, why should we assume automagically that they are male? I mean, sure, a lot of them are, but we shouldn't just assume it.[/QUOTE] While I think transgendered people might be more normal than actual cis women here on Facepunch, men are still the overwhelming majority. [I]Especially[/I] on the internet, I'm gonna have to make assumptions - there are basically no visual cues at all. It isn't practical to ask everyone what their preferred pronoun is, because I (and basically everyone else) am gonna forget it the day after. Like, what would you like to be called? I went through the first page of your posting history, but I didn't find any posting in the transgender thread. Makes it pretty hard to figure out what you're gonna use. Even then, are pronouns on the internet that big of a deal? I understand it if someone is [I]actively [/I]not using the correct pronoun, but I mean, women must face this all the time. It's not practical to know who people on the internet.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45792263]While I think transgendered people might be more normal than actual cis women here on Facepunch, men are still the overwhelming majority. [I]Especially[/I] on the internet, I'm gonna have to make assumptions - there are basically no visual cues at all. It isn't practical to ask everyone what their preferred pronoun is, because I (and basically everyone else) am gonna forget it the day after. Like, what would you like to be called? I went through the first page of your posting history, but I didn't find any posting in the transgender thread. Makes it pretty hard to figure out what you're gonna use. Even then, are pronouns on the internet that big of a deal? I understand it if someone is [I]actively [/I]not using the correct pronoun, but I mean, women must face this all the time. It's not practical to know who people on the internet.[/QUOTE] Late reply, sorry. I'm not trans, but I prefer neutral pronouns. Doesn't rustle my jimmies if someone uses the wrong one though. I get that in an environment where the userbase is primarily male that people will assume, but if you are unsure, or are in an environment with an equal gender split and you don't know the gender of the person you are talking to, just use neutral pronouns. It's a lot more respectful and can save some awkwardness.

[QUOTE=Th3applek1d;45812131]Late reply, sorry. I'm not trans, but I prefer neutral pronouns. Doesn't rustle my jimmies if someone uses the wrong one though. I get that in an environment where the userbase is primarily male that people will assume, but if you are unsure, or are in an environment with an equal gender split and you don't know the gender of the person you are talking to, just use neutral pronouns. It's a lot more respectful and can save some awkwardness.[/QUOTE] this basically i don't get why it's so hard for people to say "they" instead of "he/she" when referring to somebody they don't know. if you wanna just talk rationally it's much easier to type "they" or "their" instead of "he/she" or "his/her" every time when you're unsure.