Israel proposes West Bank barrier as border - Polidicks

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;34444728]what[/QUOTE] You could stop your pathetic circlejerk as well.

i posted in this thread once how is that a circlejerk you ponce

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;34444760]i posted in this thread once how is that a circlejerk you ponce[/QUOTE] I don't think the ability to use this word relies solely on the amount of times a person has commented in a thread. More likely, this should be related to the fact you chose to respond even though the information given from you did not provide anything for the advancement of this discussion. So, in that sense, you are the one who's a circlejerk. In fact, having this discussion over and over again, from both sides, is a circlejerk act. Nobody is right, this discussion has no purpose besides the filling of everybody's egos.

[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34444559]Okay, this point has been said until death. Just because Palestinian LAND wasn't recognised, doesn't mean there was no ownership of it.[/QUOTE] So basically they owned it at the same time when the British owned it. I like your logic

[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34444559]Okay, this point has been said until death. Just because Palestinian LAND wasn't recognised, doesn't mean there was no ownership of it.[/QUOTE] There was no Palestinian ownership of it also the borders map has also been used to death.

[QUOTE=Kero_;34444945]So basically they owned it at the same time when the British owned it. I like your logic[/QUOTE] Good thing that wasn't my point. The Palestinians have been in that land for fucking ever. The British only owned it for a short while, that is until Israelis kicked them out by murdering their police force and bombing innocent people. [QUOTE=Sovietzek;34444961]There was no Palestinian ownership of it also the borders map has also been used to death.[/QUOTE] well maybe that's because it kinda shows something unsavoury.

[QUOTE=Sickle;34439317]You're an idiot. The airstrikes killed civilians.[/QUOTE] And so can and do those rockets, however all I get from your pathetic argument is that Israel should take both the economic and human damages caused by these "sodacans with gunpowder". Real intelligence showing off there. [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34445392]The Palestinians have been in that land for fucking ever. The British only owned it for a short while[/QUOTE] Time for you to go back and study history bro [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] Oh, changed names again you did, no wonder that reply was as it was.

[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34445392]The Palestinians have been in that land for fucking ever.[/QUOTE] That's a nice argument [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_periods_in_the_region_of_Palestine[/url]

[QUOTE=Kero_;34446155]That's a nice argument [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_periods_in_the_region_of_Palestine[/url][/QUOTE] Around half a millennium constitutes "for fucker ever" quite well.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;34445490]And so can and do those rockets, however all I get from your pathetic argument is that Israel should take both the economic and human damages caused by these "sodacans with gunpowder". Real intelligence showing off there.[/quote] Now, I'm going to present a small concept here that you clearly don't understand, okay? It's called not provoking attacks Yeah, absolutely insane I know. You can argue that they should respond to attacks. Why can't they respond to Israel's attacks? [quote]Time for you to go back and study history bro[/QUOTE] Time for you to take half a second and look something up bro P.S, my point, the British Mandate of Palestine was only for a short period of time, still stands cuz y'know it's fucking true. 28 years boyo. [editline]29th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kero_;34446155]That's a nice argument [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_periods_in_the_region_of_Palestine[/url][/QUOTE] 4000 BC was a bit long ago yeah

Insanely useless discussion.

Like, it wasn't in your grandfathers time period Kero. They were still hunter-gatherer societies. [editline]29th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Seith;34446406]Insanely useless discussion.[/QUOTE] Are you going to contribute at ALL, instead of constantly going "NOPE DON'T MATTER TO ME"

[QUOTE=Starpluck;34446188]Around half a millennium constitutes "for fucker ever" quite well.[/QUOTE] I was trying to point how this is valid to the Israeli people as well.

[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34446409]Like, it wasn't in your grandfathers time period Kero. They were still hunter-gatherer societies. [editline]29th January 2012[/editline] Are you going to contribute at ALL, instead of constantly going "NOPE DON'T MATTER TO ME"[/QUOTE] Contribute? I can't contribute to something which is in essence pointless. You want people to accept your opinion and others want you to accept theirs. There's no actual effort from any of the sides to reach a compromise. This is purely the emissions of everybody's ego in the shape of pointless words. Pointless words, obviously, because it comes from ego and not a need to settle things right. This matters to me. My opinion? Burn Jerusalem, kill the patriots, give them what they want, but only if I know terror groups would disassemble. Is it realistic? hell no.

[QUOTE=Sickle;34435893]Those 'rockets' are basically soda cans welded in a line with some gunpowder on the end.[/QUOTE] There are valid arguments and then there is this, this seems kind of offensive.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;34443773]You're not grasping the point. There is no “they are both equally wrong" There is an oppressive regime supported by a superpower and a stateless civilian dispossessed oppressed population. By using the 'both sides' rhetoric you are implying that we should apply the same standards on the oppressor as on the oppressed.[/QUOTE] Alright, Israeli citizens are oppressors who deserve to be slaughtered wholesale for their crimes. It's alright for Palestinians to wrong Israelis, because Israelis wronged Palestinians first.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34449522]Alright, Israeli citizens are oppressors who deserve to be slaughtered wholesale for their crimes. It's alright for Palestinians to wrong Israelis, because Israelis wronged Palestinians first.[/QUOTE] no one said that, however Also, let me point out, the Palestinians aren't "slaughtering" anyone The Israeli's? well [IMG]http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/chron-fig1.gif[/IMG] just ONE year.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34449522]Alright, Israeli citizens are oppressors who deserve to be slaughtered wholesale for their crimes. It's alright for Palestinians to wrong Israelis, because Israelis wronged Palestinians first.[/QUOTE] No, no one should be getting killed, but when you're speaking in terms of 'who is more wrong', the Palestinians are 'less wrong'. It doesn't mean one side is in the right, simply that one has a "better" justification for their actions.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34449649]No, no one should be getting killed, but when you're speaking in terms of 'who is more wrong', the Palestinians are 'less wrong'. It doesn't mean one side is in the right, simply that one has a "better" justification for their actions.[/QUOTE] There is no justification for killing innocent people. There are no degrees of wrong when it comes to killing innocent people. If you are doing it, it is wrong. It isn't sort of wrong, or less wrong than someone else, it is just wrong. When we start justifying the killing of innocents, we have sent ourselves back into the dark ages. The type of morality that justifies that sort of behavior is the same type of morality that carries out that behavior, and that is complicit what that type of behavior.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34449753]There is no justification for killing innocent people. There are no degrees of wrong when it comes to killing innocent people. If you are doing it, it is wrong. It isn't sort of wrong, or less wrong than someone else, it is just wrong. When we start justifying the killing of innocents, we have sent ourselves back into the dark ages. The type of morality that justifies that sort of behavior is the same type of morality that carries out that behavior, and that is complicit what that type of behavior.[/QUOTE] Well then they should both reach a legitimate ceasefire, vacate the West Bank, then it will/should stop. Even the leader of Hamas has stated that once a Palestinian state is established with the full West Bank (based on the '1967' borders) with its capital in East Jerusalem, that the armed resistance will end.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34449803]Well then they should both reach a legitimate ceasefire, vacate the West Bank, then it will/should stop. Even the leader of Hamas has stated that once a Palestinian state is established with the full West Bank (based on the '1967' borders) with its capital in East Jerusalem, that the armed resistance will end.[/QUOTE] I would agree, but it's hardly a realistic demand. Israel would be making a whole lot of concessions with not as much to gain from that sort of treaty. The first goal should be to stop Israeli settlement of the West Bank and set up a concrete(metaphorically) border to decide who gets what exactly. After that, it would become easier to negotiate a 1967 border agreement over time. If only one side feels they are making all the concessions, then negotiations won't work. Both sides need to concede quite a bit.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34450775]I would agree, but it's hardly a realistic demand. Israel would be making a whole lot of concessions with not as much to gain from that sort of treaty. The first goal should be to stop Israeli settlement of the West Bank and set up a concrete(metaphorically) border to decide who gets what exactly. After that, it would become easier to negotiate a 1967 border agreement over time. If only one side feels they are making all the concessions, then negotiations won't work. Both sides need to concede quite a bit.[/QUOTE] Without realistic, heavy outside pressure from other nations, I can predict Israel "winning" this conflict by the end of the century. Neither are going to concede anything.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34450775]I would agree, but it's hardly a realistic demand. Israel would be making a whole lot of concessions with not as much to gain from that sort of treaty. The first goal should be to stop Israeli settlement of the West Bank and set up a concrete(metaphorically) border to decide who gets what exactly. After that, it would become easier to negotiate a 1967 border agreement over time. If only one side feels they are making all the concessions, then negotiations won't work. Both sides need to concede quite a bit.[/QUOTE] Except that the Palestinians are not in a position to concede anything more. It is already fragmented with Gaza and the West Bank being separate, to fragment it even more would be unacceptable.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34451005]Except that the Palestinians are not in a position to concede anything more. It is already fragmented with Gaza and the West Bank being separate, to fragment it even more would be unacceptable.[/QUOTE] Concessions don't have to be purely territorial. For example if Hamas makes acceptable steps to ensure rocket attacks no longer happen in Israel, Israel can concede something(lifting the blockade completely?). In exchange for some Israeli settlements to become part of Israel, the West Bank is allowed to have other parts, or reclaim East Jerusalem. These types of things would allow both sides to get what they want.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34451242]Concessions don't have to be purely territorial. For example if Hamas makes acceptable steps to ensure rocket attacks no longer happen in Israel, Israel can concede something(lifting the blockade completely?). In exchange for some Israeli settlements to become part of Israel, the West Bank is allowed to have other parts, or reclaim East Jerusalem. These types of things would allow both sides to get what they want.[/QUOTE] This implies that Hamas is in strict control of the rockets, which I doubt.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34451273]This implies that Hamas is in strict control of the rockets, which I doubt.[/QUOTE] Even if they aren't they can try and police Gaza better, and work to eliminate and prosecute militants.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34451295]Even if they aren't they can try and police Gaza better, and work to eliminate and prosecute militants.[/QUOTE] Prosecuting militants I think would help a bit, but I'm not sure it would be a "big concession" type that would help things go along.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34451336]Prosecuting militants I think would help a bit, but I'm not sure it would be a "big concession" type that would help things go along.[/QUOTE] That's a major concern of Israel's. If Israel got rid of the blockade and Hamas ensured rocket attacks were not happening unpunished, then it would go a long ways for Israeli-Palestinian relations because it would finally set a precedent of them cooperating in order to both get what they want.

Fuck off Israel.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34449753]There is no justification for killing innocent people.[/QUOTE] Greater good. [QUOTE=yawmwen;34449753]There are no degrees of wrong when it comes to killing innocent people.[/QUOTE] Intent augments actions. Killing an innocent for the sheer sake of seeing them bleed is more wrong than killing an innocent via collateral damage, which is more wrong than killing an innocent via honest mistake. [QUOTE=yawmwen;34450775]If only one side feels they are making all the concessions, then negotiations won't work. Both sides need to concede quite a bit.[/QUOTE] Let's be honest, though, right now it seems like Israel's government considers letting the Palestinians have what little they do a concession. They've expressed zero belief that the Palestinians deserve [I]anything.[/I] And that's not changing for at least a political generation, if not longer.