Israel proposes West Bank barrier as border - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34465810]And Gazan militants aren't launching rockets at Israel just because they want to spill civilian blood. Don't even try to act like Israel's borders are literally under threat, as if somehow the second you take your eyes off of the militant groups they'll ransack the country and you'll be pushed to a speck of land.[/QUOTE] But they are, and if Israel doesn't take some sort of policy to deal with militants and Hamas, then they will destroy Israel. [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] What policy should they take to deal with Hamas and the other terrorists in Gaza?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34465858]But they are, and if Israel doesn't take some sort of policy to deal with militants and Hamas, then they will destroy Israel.[/QUOTE] So let me get this straight: Israel, the nation able to win against the various Arab nations surrounding it in 2 different wars will fall if they don't deal with the splinter groups of militants in Gaza? Might want to enlighten me as how this train of thought runs?

[QUOTE=Retardation;34464336]Surely the Iron Dome would be capable of intercepting not Scud missles, but the usual homemade rockets that get fired on us though?[/QUOTE] I would hope it's capable of doing both, but I have no idea what happened to it. [QUOTE=Retardation;34464336]And I dont think terrorist organizations have access to large stocks of Scud missiles so unless a neighboring country decides to declare war on us (entirely unlikely for obvious reasons), we're not at that big of a military disadvantage currently.[/QUOTE] That's not really what I meant. I'm saying the reasoning behind the current borders can't be and isn't an absolute need to defend Israel from all varieties of attack (he uses terrorist [I]and[/I] foreign military examples). A nation always has blind spots, and owning the rift valley and a large amount of the west bank doesn't cover them. He says Israel is controlling short-range simple weaponry using them, and the rocket attacks prove otherwise, he says they're necessary to keep out "more advanced weaponry", [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/israeli-officials-palestinians-in-gaza-got-anti-aircraft-missiles-from-libya-1.381395"]yet anti-aircraft missiles still found a way into the country.[/URL] Okay, so they're not in the west bank...yet. Not really proof of success of the current "secure borders." [QUOTE=Retardation;34464336]Also, the fact that you mentioned "we have the military strength to combat enemies" is irrelevant. We're trying to prevent the need itself to constantly hunt out mortars on mountains or blowing through roadblocks. It'd just be a constant hazard and a pain to contain.[/QUOTE] Oh sure, but that's why steps need to be taken to get the Palestinian populace less pissed, because less pissed Palestinians means less pissed Palestinians joining Hamas and company. Israel's reached a point on the ole' [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_possibility_frontier"]Guns and Butter curve[/URL] where it's achieved about all it can via guns, and the costs only keep going up for smaller returns. [QUOTE=Retardation;34464336]You're underestimating what muslim extremists are actually capable of. They'd kill a dozen of their own if it means they took some "Western/Jewish imperialistic oppressors" down with them. You're implying they actually care about the citizens. I know that most probably do, but there were instances in the past where they bluntly mortared civilian areas and are actually doing so right now.[/QUOTE] It's more that I believe kindness can break a citizenry in a way controls can't. No one will want to fight someone who is genuinely beneficial to them. Extremism is a virus of the marginalized. I mean, think about [URL="http://cos.sagepub.com/content/45/5/337.short"]this.[/URL] [QUOTE]In the present study I compare public views regarding suicide bombings using data from two surveys of Palestinian refugees living in southern Lebanon (N = 342) and Lebanese Muslims (N = 553) administered during the summers of 2002 and 2003 respectively. ... For both populations, support for suicide attacks is more evident among women than men. Among Lebanese, [B]support for suicide attacks is also a function of low income and among Palestinians, a function of residence in camps.[/B] For both samples, the most important determinant of support for suicide attacks is attachment to political Islam. The greater the commitment to political Islam the more likely respondents are to endorse suicide activities. It should be noted however, that the impact of political Islam is more evident among Palestinians than Lebanese.[/QUOTE] Okay, so "political Islam" is still the single biggest determinant, but [URL="http://www.springerlink.com/content/vj441460g0108214/"]what causes that?[/URL] [QUOTE]Extremism is modeled as a production factor whose effect on expected revenue is initially positive and then turns negative, and whose level is optimally chosen by a revolutionary organization. The organization is bound by a free-access constraint and hence [B]uses the degree of extremism as a means of indirectly controlling its level of membership with the aim of maximizing expected per capita income of its members[/B], like a producer co-operative. The gist of the argument is that [B]radicalization may be an optimal reaction to perceived failure (a widespread perception in the Muslim world) when political activists are, at the margin, relatively strongly averse to effort but not so averse to extremism.[/B][/QUOTE] Each time a settlement goes up, each time they're stopped at a checkpoint, the average Palestinian's faith in their ability to do anything via political effort goes down. The current situation [I]encourages[/I] terrorism. [QUOTE=Retardation;34465597]I was arguing against the point he made that Israel practically starves the region.[/QUOTE] Problem is, based on existing models of extremist behavior, I would have to say the extremism seen in the region implies it [I]is[/I] "practically starved". I'm not aware of any other functioning models of this type of phenomenon that would explain it any other way. It's tempting to be opposed to this sort of understanding of the situation because, okay, it honestly fucking sucks, it says the only solution is to kiss ass and make nice and take some hits and suck them up and that fucking blows, but that's life. One can finally say with some certainty that this is a big fucking negative feedback loop with a lot of momentum, and it'll be hell to stop it, but it can't be put off forever in hope of an easier solution. Israel's gonna have to make some proper concessions or seize Palestine proper, but the attacks won't stop until then.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34465858]But they are, and if Israel doesn't take some sort of policy to deal with militants and Hamas, then they will destroy Israel. [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] What policy should they take to deal with Hamas and the other terrorists in Gaza?[/QUOTE] Hahahaha, an american backed nation is going to be destroyed by a tiny group of militants. Yeah. Sure.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34465929]So let me get this straight: Israel, the nation able to win against the various Arab nations surrounding it in 2 different wars will fall if they don't deal with the splinter groups of militants in Gaza? Might want to enlighten me as how this train of thought runs?[/QUOTE] They dealt with those Arab nations in a war. If they don't take a policy dealing with threats then they will be destroyed. That's simple logic. The problem is that their policy so far hasn't been that effective as far as dealing with the terrorists in and running Gaza.

[QUOTE=Sickle;34466113]Hahahaha, an american backed nation is going to be destroyed by a tiny group of militants. Yeah. Sure.[/QUOTE] Alright, disband the military, take no action to fight threats. Apparently being American backed gives you some mystical power that makes your border impenetrable.

What the hell? They should give them NO land. If you come and suddenly take somebodys land,you kick his ass,eat him alive and crap him out.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34466138]Alright, disband the military, take no action to fight threats. Apparently being American backed gives you some mystical power that makes your border impenetrable.[/QUOTE] Holy shit, do you possess an education? [url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel[/url] They've won almost all of those wars, but you're saying they'll get their shit handed to them by Hamas. Also your post is literally retarded.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;34465858]But they are, and if Israel doesn't take some sort of policy to deal with militants and Hamas, then they will destroy Israel.[/QUOTE] what

[QUOTE=Retardation;34466126]How is this logical at all? So we should just do what - sit around and wait for them to kidnap and murder our civilians? (They already did so several times) What are you even suggesting we do? They wont ransack or destroy the country, but are you [b]seriously[/b] expecting a nation to sit silently while its civilians are getting mortared and killed without any sort of retaliation - simply because it'd be hard to land a decisive counter-blow?[/QUOTE] No, your military should stop occupying what little land they have left, stop blockading their ports, and sit down with the Palestinian government (whether it's officials from Fatah or Hamas) to put an end to the mortar strikes, which are at this point being committed by more minor groups.

[QUOTE=Retardation;34466320]The biggest superpowers the world has seen, the US and USSR have both had their asses handed back to them on a silver platter by guerrilla warfare. Hamas only operates using guerrilla tactics, and if they do not, they [i]will[/i] the second the head chiefs of the party are assassinated. They dont give a fuck if Israel is backed by the US or by NATO or by everyone on the planet. There is no big Hamas HQ that can just be airstriked into oblivion. [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] There is nothing stopping them from repeatedly attacking Israel.[/QUOTE] The worlds biggest superpowers dont oppress a whole race of people currently.

[QUOTE=Retardation;34466430]You do realize we've sat down with them countless of times, right? Their demands are either far too unrealistic, or we are being far too stubborn. If it were as easy as just settling this mess with one civilized conference meeting this conflict would've been over eons ago. We have absolutely no proof that they'll stop the attacks the minute we turn our backs, this is why we are reluctant to succumb to their demands.[/QUOTE] What about the demand for a Palestinian state based on the '1967' borders is unrealistic? Both sides are not on equal footing, of course the Palestinians are going to be a bit pissed about the conditions. The larger part of the Palestinian authority is occupied by Israelis or Israeli forces, and you expect the the Palestinians to concede to them?

[QUOTE=Retardation;34466430]This is absolutely irrelevant to my statement and I dont know why you even mentioned it. Palestinians are also not a race iirc.[/QUOTE] Its relevant as to the reason why you're being attacked. Also by that logic, jews arent a race either. Both are tribes descended from Abraham, and both are semetic. So why the fuck do you say they arent?

Despite the fact that the rockets aren't as deadly as the air force, that Hamas may not be in complete control of them, and all other political considerations, one thing remains true. The rockets are not helping the Palestinian cause in any way whatsoever and to justify them in any way makes no sense. All they do is allow Israel to say "look, they're attacking us. We have a right to continue what we're doing." The reason similar attacks and guerrilla warfare in general has worked, for example, to get an occupying nation like the U.S. to leave Iraq is because there is a separation. There's a clear "that's happening over there and not at home" mentality. There's the knowledge that only the army is at risk. With rocket attacks and the close proximity of Israel to Palestine, that mentality doesn't exist and therefore the Israeli public is more favorable of their government's actions than an American of the occupation of Iraq. Regardless of the actual threat, there's a very high perceived threat. The government can say "deadly rockets are coming out of Palestinian lands that kill civilians," without it being false. They're not elaborating, but that statement is 100% factually correct and people with little knowledge of the situation may build off of that factual statement in any number of ways in their own minds. It's a lot harder to justify a dead Palestinian child if there's no rocket attacks to "validate" it in people's minds. I don't know a solution to the issue that will work but I do know that without the rocket attacks, the Palestinians would be viewed much more favorably to the world and the Israelis themselves. Even if literally one person is launching rockets into Israeli territory that never actually do any damage, that one statement remains true and gives some legitimacy to the Israeli government's actions. Hamas has done a lot to cease their own attacks and those of other organizations but I am not doubting that there are plenty still within the organization who believe it to be temporary. Until they completely condemn all forms of violence against the state of Israel and revoke the charter they claim to no longer follow parts of (yet still keep it for "historical reasons"), nothing's going to work. It's not fair for the Palestinians and obviously Israel should leave, but this is highly unlikely to happen. Without rockets, those airstrikes that kill so many Palestinians are going to be a lot harder to justify.

[QUOTE=Retardation;34467278]Jews [i]arent[/i] a race. Also it was irrelevant to my statement because you claimed Hamas posed no threat to Israel since we won a bunch of unrelated wars, and I replied that it is incorrect to assume so. Then you pulled the Palestinian oppression card out of nowhere.[/QUOTE] Sweet, glad we got the race thing out of the way. Also: you said Hamas could destroy Israel. I showed they couldnt by citing actual wars they had won with US backing, which makes Palestinian oppression justification via 'Hamas is destroying us' null.

[QUOTE=Sickle;34466417]The worlds biggest superpowers dont oppress a whole race of people currently.[/QUOTE] The Chechyans would like a word with you. As he said before though, it's about minimalising casualties rather than the possibility of being anihilated. Good defensive ground means you have a greater buffer between invaders and civilian areas and can save lives. They want the high ground defensively while it may be a paranoid move, I think the Palestinians aren't as paranoid about Israel marching over the border in pure aggression.

The geopolitical issue of "ARABIA WILL COME DOWN ON ISRAEL" is completely invalid for obvious reasons *Syria: Going to topple very soon *Lebanon: It's fucking Lebanon, they have their own problems. *Saudi Arabia: Saudi Arabia has way to much US influence to do something *Egypt: THIS would be the one to be worried about with the recent revolution/military control *Jordan: US ally None of these would effect Israeli defense in the absolute slightest.

[QUOTE=Sickle;34466205]Holy shit, do you possess an education? [url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel[/url] They've won almost all of those wars, but you're saying they'll get their shit handed to them by Hamas. Also your post is literally retarded.[/QUOTE] They didn't just sit on their ass and let the enemy run over them. You are saying that if Israel just gives up then no one can conquer them for some reason just because they won wars in the past. That's not how the world works, you have to take an active role in your countries defense to defend it. [editline]31st January 2012[/editline] Seriously though, what policy should Israel take anyways? You guys are definitely sure about what Israel is doing [i]wrong[/i]. What could they do to make it better?

[QUOTE=Retardation;34466430]We have absolutely no proof that they'll stop the attacks the minute we turn our backs, this is why we are reluctant to succumb to their demands.[/QUOTE] Problem is, honestly, there is no solution to this that won't result in you getting attacked. You turn a cheek, you'll get attacked. You encroach, you'll get attacked. You do nothing, you'll get attacked, and then get attacked later when you finally do something.