The fight to formally legalize gay marriage in Japan begins as LGBT group files a human rights compl - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Glaber;48168846]proably not, but then again there's nothing now stopping them from going straight of their own free will.[/QUOTE] Except the fact this isn't how sexuality works and this shows a key misunderstanding you have with the concept all together.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48168900]Why is it unthinkable? [url]http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/[/url][/QUOTE] So you'd be happy and willing to enter into a relationship that goes against your own sexuality? Nevermind that even if every gay person in Japan started having kids, the birthrate increase would be negligible.

[QUOTE=Altimor;48168964]Because discrimination by sexuality wasn't seen as an issue, while discrimination by race, nationality and religion were. While it specifically mentions certain types of discrimination, it makes no exceptions either. The wording of that unquestionably grants everyone, including homosexuals, the right to marry. What's up for debate is whether "marriage" includes same-sex marriage. Would it be possible for you to decide to start liking men? Even if a sexual orientation is developed after birth that doesn't mean you can change it later.[/QUOTE] Would it be possible? for me, I'd say no. But for the person I quoted, She started off that way. Also if Sexual discrimination wasn't an issue, why does article 2 say: [quote] [h=3]Article 2.[/h] Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.[/quote] [url]http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a2[/url] You know, considering that article 2 says all this. Why does Article 16 even spell out what doesn't limit marriage? [QUOTE=Jacen;48169066]So you'd be happy and willing to enter into a relationship that goes against your own sexuality? Nevermind that even if every gay person in Japan started having kids, the birthrate increase would be negligible.[/QUOTE] sexuality doesn't work that way. for me to go against it would mean that it changed therefor if you wish to continue this argument, sexuality has to be changeable. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48169009]Except the fact this isn't how sexuality works and this shows a key misunderstanding you have with the concept all together.[/QUOTE] [quote]The fact that people persist in having gay or lesbian desires and relationships, even when they are facing some horrific consequences, appears at first blush to be evidence that there must be something so powerful in their physiology that they have no other choice but to act on innate homosexual impulses. And yet, there is another view to consider, which is that people have long risked death to fulfill desires that are rooted in the social. Girls and women have risked rape and death to attend school or to be out in public at night. People have risked death, and have died, for the freedom to vote or express their religious beliefs. While humans may be born with some kind of innate craving for knowledge and self-determination, we are not born with an innate craving for schools or voting, as these are historically specific social phenomena. In the same sense, we cannot discount the possibility that in the presence of any given sexual desire—the desire to masturbate, the desire to have sex with someone of the same or opposite gender, the desire for oral sex or anal sex, etc.—the human impulse toward self-determination and sexual gratification is very powerful. But this alone is not evidence that the particular sexual desire in question is in-born, just as religious beliefs are not in-born (no matter how deeply held or severely punished).[/quote] [url]http://socialinqueery.com/2013/10/31/some-clarifications-on-no-one-is-born-gay/[/url] I don't know about you, but I think I'm more likely to believe this Lesbian woman I'm quoting than someone who isn't backing up how it's not changeable. According to [URL="http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/"]her personal story[/URL] (found in point 5), she started out heterosexual, but became homosexual.

How desperately are you going to argue homophobic crap? You do not choose your sexuality. I can prove this easily. Change your sexuality now. Oh, you can't, right, shit. A person taking time to realize their sexuality is perfectly normal

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169177]Also if Sexual discrimination wasn't an issue, why does article 2 say: [url]http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a2[/url] [/QUOTE] It says sex, not sexuality. That also says "without distinction of any kind".

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48169204]How desperately are you going to argue homophobic crap? You do not choose your sexuality. I can prove this easily. Change your sexuality now. Oh, you can't, right, shit. A person taking time to realize their sexuality is perfectly normal[/QUOTE] Change your house now. Change your Car now. Change the food you don't like now. Can you do any of those instantly? You can so choose your sexuality, but it's something that has to worked at and conditioned. [quote=ejaneward] People like to use the failure of “gay conversion” therapies as evidence that homosexuality is innate. First of all, these conversions do not always fail; if you make someone feel disgusted enough by their desires, you can change their desires. Call it a tragedy of repression, or call it a religious awakening—regardless, the point is that we can and do change. For instance, in high school and early in college, my sexual desires were deeply bound up with sexism. I wanted to be a hot girl, and I wanted powerful men to desire me. I was as authentically heterosexual as any woman I knew. But later, several years into my exploration of feminist politics, what I once found desirable (heterosexuality and sexism) became utterly unappealing. I became critical of homophobia and sexism in ways that allowed these forces far less power to determine the shape of my desires. If this had not happened, no doubt I’d be married to a man. And if he wasn’t a complete asshole, I’d probably be happy enough. But instead, I was drawn to queerness for various political and emotional reasons, and from my vantage point today, I believe it to be one of the best desires I ever cultivated. [Does this mean that your daughter may decide to be a lesbian if she takes some women’s studies courses? Yes. Whatcha gonna do now?!] Perhaps most importantly, the fact that we might cultivate or “[I]choose”[/I] something doesn’t mean that it is a trivial, temporary, or less a vital part of who we are. For instance, is religion a choice? Certainly it is if we define “choice” as anything that isn’t an immutable part of our physiology. But many religious people would feel profoundly misunderstood and offended if I suggested that their religious beliefs were a phase, an experiment, or a less significant part of who they are then, say, their hair color. Choices are complex. Choices run deep. And yes, choices are both constrained and fluid–just like our bodies.[/quote] [URL]http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169233]Change your house now. Change your Car now. Change the food you don't like now. Can you do any of those instantly?[/QUOTE] You realize you're arguing against yourself here right?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48169204]How desperately are you going to argue homophobic crap? You do not choose your sexuality. I can prove this easily. Change your sexuality now. Oh, you can't, right, shit. A person taking time to realize their sexuality is perfectly normal[/QUOTE] I can, I just don't want to! Checkmate gaythiest!

And you still have failed to formulate an even somewhat cogent point as to why exactly laws can't change to accommodate basic human rights and decency

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48169247]And you still have failed to formulate an even somewhat cogent point as to why exactly laws can't change to accommodate basic human rights and decency[/QUOTE] Because you failed to explain how sexuality isn't changeable where as a Lesbian woman has explained how it is. [quote=ejaneward] People like to use the failure of “gay conversion” therapies as evidence that homosexuality is innate. First of all, these conversions do not always fail; if you make someone feel disgusted enough by their desires, you can change their desires. Call it a tragedy of repression, or call it a religious awakening—regardless, the point is that we can and do change. For instance, in high school and early in college, my sexual desires were deeply bound up with sexism. I wanted to be a hot girl, and I wanted powerful men to desire me. I was as authentically heterosexual as any woman I knew. But later, several years into my exploration of feminist politics, what I once found desirable (heterosexuality and sexism) became utterly unappealing. I became critical of homophobia and sexism in ways that allowed these forces far less power to determine the shape of my desires. If this had not happened, no doubt I’d be married to a man. And if he wasn’t a complete asshole, I’d probably be happy enough. But instead, I was drawn to queerness for various political and emotional reasons, and from my vantage point today, I believe it to be one of the best desires I ever cultivated. [Does this mean that your daughter may decide to be a lesbian if she takes some women’s studies courses? Yes. Whatcha gonna do now?!] Perhaps most importantly, the fact that we might cultivate or “choose” something doesn’t mean that it is a trivial, temporary, or less a vital part of who we are. For instance, is religion a choice? Certainly it is if we define “choice” as anything that isn’t an immutable part of our physiology. But many religious people would feel profoundly misunderstood and offended if I suggested that their religious beliefs were a phase, an experiment, or a less significant part of who they are then, say, their hair color. Choices are complex. Choices run deep. And yes, choices are both constrained and fluid–just like our bodies.[/quote] [URL]http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/[/URL]

I already went over this. Taking time to find your sexuality and deal with those confusions is normal. Or are you going to dictate how I felt as a bisexual man finding my sexuality. I was once homophobic, but that was a repression of my gay desires. Now please Glaber, tell me how I'm wrong because you a straight person with no personal experience has had no problem dictating why gay people don't deserve human rights.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169233]Change your house now. Change your Car now. Change the food you don't like now. Can you do any of those instantly?[/QUOTE] Because material objects are just like the human psyche? Difference is you can actually change those, sexuality isn't a choice. If it we're a choice why would homosexuals choose the option that makes certain parts of society shun them? Being attracted to something isn't a thing you choose, you just simply are attracted to what you are. There's no decision making in sexuality.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48169299]I already went over this. Taking time to find your sexuality and deal with those confusions is normal. Or are you going to dictate how I felt as a bisexual man finding my sexuality. I was once homophobic, but that was a repression of my gay desires. Now please Glaber, tell me how I'm wrong because you a straight person with no personal experience has had no problem dictating why gay people don't deserve human rights.[/QUOTE] I can't, because that's not the argument. The whole argument is over Gay Marriage being a human right or not, not over human rights for gays. Oh, and you know nothing of how I grew up.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169324]I can't, because that's not the argument. The whole argument is over Gay Marriage being a human right or not, not over human rights for gays.[/QUOTE] You're arguing the status quo CANNOT change. This is wrong and untrue. And then you also keep insisting that change over time equals a conscious choice. Which, is again, wrong.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48169336]You're arguing the status quo CANNOT change. This is wrong and untrue. And then you also keep insisting that change over time equals a conscious choice. Which, is again, wrong.[/QUOTE] Oh really? How do you explain smokers quitting then? Isn't that a conscious choice over time?

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169284]Because you failed to explain how sexuality isn't changeable where as a Lesbian woman has explained how it is. [URL]http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/[/URL][/QUOTE] "; if you make someone feel disgusted enough by their desires, you can change their desires. " this is just so comically untrue I can't even put into words making someone hate the way they feel does not change the way they feel, that isn't how this shit works [editline]11th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Glaber;48169355]Oh really? How do you explain smokers quitting then?[/QUOTE] dicks are not a chemical the brain forms a dependence on, glaber I don't know how you got it into your head that they are but they're entirely separate things

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169355]Oh really? How do you explain smokers quitting then? Isn't that a conscious choice over time?[/QUOTE] Ah yes, because the choice of smoking is much like your "choice" of sexuality. Come on.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169355]Oh really? How do you explain smokers quitting then? Isn't that a conscious choice over time?[/QUOTE] So choosing to quit smoking is in no way different than being gay? You have drawn an arbitrary line in the ground and said you're right. The issue is that's just your opinions on this. I didn't choose to be bisexual but it took time for me to figure it out. It's massively different than making a choice constantly over time l

Look Human Abyss, I'm not saying you chose to be what you are, I myself didn't exactly chose to be what I am directly. But it's a fallacy to say we can't change our orientations later. Our first, "choice" isn't exactly a choice. that Lesbian I keep quoting made the choice to become a lesbian. Now if you keep on insisting that's not how it works, then back it up. Prove it can't be changed after you discovered what you are! Just because you are born as something, with something, or as something, that doesn't mean it's unchangeable. If it did, people couldn't change their Faith.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169447]But it's a fallacy to say we can't change our orientations later.[/QUOTE] Uh, no. No. No. No. No. People have been driven to suicide because of this drivel. Stop it right now.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;48169460]Uh, no. No. No. No. No. People have been driven to suicide because of this drivel. Stop it right now.[/QUOTE] they have ben driven to it because they believe they can't!

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169479]they have ben driven to it because they believe they can't![/QUOTE] because they can't [editline]11th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Glaber;48169447]Look Human Abyss, I'm not saying you chose to be what you are, I myself didn't exactly chose to be what I am directly. But it's a fallacy to say we can't change our orientations later. Our first, "choice" isn't exactly a choice. that Lesbian I keep quoting made the choice to become a lesbian. Now if you keep on insisting that's not how it works, then back it up. Prove it can't be changed after you discovered what you are! Just because you are born as something, with something, or as something, that doesn't mean it's unchangeable. If it did, people couldn't change their Faith.[/QUOTE] your religion is an idea, it's a concept that you believe in people can change their ideas they can't change what makes their dick hard

You know what, I've made my point multiple times over. I'm done here.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169447]Just because you are born as something, with something, or as something, that doesn't mean it's unchangeable. If it did, people couldn't change their Faith.[/QUOTE] You are not born a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Catholic, or a Pastafarian, or any other faith.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169479]they have ben driven to it because they believe they can't![/QUOTE] Okay, starting first thing tomorrow, you are going to become sexually interested in CITY BUSES. Come on, you could do it for two weeks and prove us and the whole world wrong. Sexual preference is a choice, after all, so why don't you prove it to us by genuinely replacing the intense, joyous, boner-causing emotions you feel when looking at (I'm going to assume you're a straight male here) attractive naked women, with spontaneous throbbing hardons when looking at this: [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Kyoto_City_Bus_200_Ka_1519.jpg[/IMG] It's only two weeks, and then you'll shut up gay activists forever. C'mon.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169284]Because you failed to explain how sexuality isn't changeable where as a Lesbian woman has explained how it is. [URL]http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/[/URL][/QUOTE] That's not her sexuality changing, that's her finding her sexuality after the pressure of fitting in loosened it's grip on her. I've gone through the same situation. I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169496]You know what, I've made my point multiple times over. I'm done here.[/QUOTE] Your points are shit, you ignore the research in human sexuality in trying to use anecdotal references that you manage to misquote, and you argue semantics of wording on an outdated document that can be amended, versus a historical document that cannot be.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48168672]If I am right, what this means is that Homosexual Marriage is not a human right, and that Japan doesn't have to reconice gay marriage if they don't want to.[/QUOTE] I'm just not gonna keep writing what I was about to.

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169496]You know what, I've made my point multiple times over. I'm done here.[/QUOTE] I guess just insisting you're right regardless of the logical fallacies you keep repeating is the way to win arguments. People don't make the decision to be gay or no one ever would have. Why would they choose to be hated and discriminated against? Why? Simple question

[QUOTE=Glaber;48169496]You know what, I've made my point multiple times over. I'm done here.[/QUOTE] your assertion is that society can condition people to have certain sexual preferences. sure. but if it were possible to condition people to change their entire orientation, then why has hundreds of years of persecution been unable to condition homosexuality out of existence? and how are you supposed to account for years of research that proves that a host of heritable and developmental factors are responsible for homosexuality? and finally, how can you possibly believe that the sexual fluidity of a single person (regardless of the possibility that she was just a lesbian in denial or a bisexual with political grievances) is somehow applicable to the incredible diversity of sexuality characteristic of the human race? after all, the plural of anecdote is not data. we may never know your answer to these questions, because you've left the thread in a temper tantrum over the inevitable and obvious reaction to the posts you've made.