[QUOTE=Killuah;48192837]
Ireland and Iceland were in a very similar situation. What is evergy and Aluminium industry in Iceland is Tourism in Greece.
They smacked the banks down, told crediters to wait and invested instead of cutting off services that only are used by people in bad situations anyway and look.[/QUOTE]
The creditors will be left with nothing (in Icelands case they lost over 80 billion) and they will not have that even at the expense of a humanitarian crisis however fucked up that may be (as someone else will handle giving aid).
[QUOTE=Killuah;48192828]They already can't. Friends of me are there, the media is reporting it, people are already suffering because they only can draw 60€ per day from banks.[/QUOTE]
But, isin't that the point of the deal? To get liquidity to the greek banks and thereby the greek economy? You can't expect the EU to just hand over another bailout package with no strings attached, [I]especially[/I] efter what this greek government has pulled during the negotiations... Not to mention the the abandonment of the reforms that the previous bailout packages required.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48192894]Not going to happen (if the Greek government gets their economy a little more in order).
The EU proposing something that would cause that would be counter-productive to everyone.
It's a ridiculous notion and senseless polemic on your part to even bring it up (repeatedly).
Even if they completely mismanage everything and crash, medication and food are a matter of humanitarian aid that has already been proposed by various political leaders.
This would also happen in case of a "Grexit" though, so no matter how you look at it the talinking point is completely moot here.
If you really wanted to help "the people", you should protest for Greece to apply the economic aid they'll (probably) receive in such a way that it ensures a reasonable security net for their citizens instead of bleeding away into the existing system and towards existing beneficiaries.[/QUOTE]
It is already happening.
[url]http://www.taz.de/!5208100/[/url]
They cut the health departments budget to almost 50%
[QUOTE=Scot;48192912]What was even the point of that referendum[/QUOTE]
The point was for the greek government to pass off responsibility to the voters when everything goes to shit/add more credence to the big bad EU story they're trying to push.
[QUOTE=Streecer;48192935]The point was for the greek government to pass off responsibility to the voters when everything goes to shit/add more credence to the big bad EU story they're trying to push.[/QUOTE]
But people voted no.
[QUOTE=Scot;48192912]What was even the point of that referendum[/QUOTE]
The government hoped that maybe the voters will vote yes and not murder them once the program is inevitably put to action.
[QUOTE=Scot;48192942]But people voted no.[/QUOTE]
It didn't matter because the deal they were voting on was already expired anyway.
[QUOTE=Streecer;48192952]It didn't matter because the deal they were voting on was already expired anyway.[/QUOTE]
So there was literally no point.
[QUOTE=Scot;48192955]So there was literally no point.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, that [I]why[/I] they let people vote on it. Either way it would end up being the same result, so why not try and make yourself look better by giving people the illusion of a choice.
[QUOTE=Scot;48192942]But people voted no.[/QUOTE]
The intention of the vote was double sided; on one hand, if the greeks voted yes the government could deny responsibility for all the reforms and all that. The no vote, as it happend to end up being, was supposed to give the Tsipras a stronger mandate in the negotiations, giving him the ability to wave around the "democracy" card as a way to get what he wanted. What he failed to realize was that the EU was tired of his, and by extension Greeces, shit. All the no vote did was pissing of even more people at the negotiation table, and it is hard to a favorable deal when you don't have any more friends to back you up.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48192837]Ireland and Iceland were in a very similar situation. What is evergy and Aluminium industry in Iceland is Tourism in Greece.
They smacked the banks down, told crediters to wait and invested instead of cutting off services that only are used by people in bad situations anyway and look.[/QUOTE]
If I'm not mistaken, what crashed in Iceland was the (private) banking sector and not the government.
Looking at [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008%E2%80%9311_Icelandic_financial_crisis&oldid=670357662"]the summary on Wikipedia[/URL], it seems the situation was more or less entirely different from the get-go and the government remained solvent throughout the issue.
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-2008_Irish_banking_crisis&oldid=669255208"]This seems to be true for the crisis in Ireland, too.[/URL]
From what I can tell the measures taken in both cases aren't actually that different from [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/13/world/europe/document-text-of-the-euro-summit-statement-on-greece.html?_r=1"]what is proposed this time[/URL], just on a different level because it's the state and not (only) the banking sector that is in trouble.
If anything they seem a bit less harsh considering the equivalent of a nationalisation would be other countries invading Greece to forcibly take over government affairs :v:
On the point of tax evasion, I read somewhere that you are able to avoid the housing tax if your house is unfinished. So you basically see loads of buildings still in construction (mostly without roofs) with people living in it and also having no intention of finishing the house so they don't have to pay the tax.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48192909]It is already happening.
[url]http://www.taz.de/!5208100/[/url]
They cut the health departments budget to almost 50%[/QUOTE]
Can you then please tell me where this was required to get additional funds?
As far as I've seen so far, the reform requirements list increases of efficiency where possible instead of flat budget cuts.
Additionally, health department cuts and individual loss of health insurance are normally not directly connected.
To me it appears someone made a really bad attempt at "optimising" a system by just draining the money out of it and doing nothing else, which again doesn't seem to be required by any of the proposals I've seen so far.
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=tjaze;48193020]On the point of tax evasion, I read somewhere that you are able to avoid the housing tax if your house is unfinished. So you basically see loads of buildings still in construction (mostly without roofs) with people living in it and also having no intention of finishing the house so they don't have to pay the tax.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how high the incidence of that really is.
It's difficult to tell because since it's a legal loophole it won't show up in any tax evasion statistics.
[editline]edit[/editline]
It [I]should[/I] appear in the statistics of building permits vs finished buildings though.
That's still not the real number but by comparing it with other countries (in a similar financial situation, or with Greece before the crisis) it may be possible to get a rough idea.
I think the greek government should cease to exist and the EU should split the country up into little districts which they can manage the finances of externally
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48193041]Can you then please tell me where this was required to get additional funds?
As far as I've seen so far, the reform requirements list increases of efficiency where possible instead of flat budget cuts.
Additionally, health department cuts and individual loss of health insurance are normally not directly connected.
To me it appears someone made a really bad attempt at "optimising" a system by just draining the money out of it and doing nothing else, which again doesn't seem to be required by any of the proposals I've seen so far.
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
I wonder how high the incidence of that really is.
It's difficult to tell because since it's a legal loophole it won't show up in any tax evasion statistics.
[editline]edit[/editline]
It [I]should[/I] appear in the statistics of building permits vs finished buildings though.
That's still not the real number but by comparing it with other countries (in a similar financial situation, or with Greece before the crisis) it may be possible to get a rough idea.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-07/tsipras-grexit-griechenland-merkel[/url]
"reform laws"
Privatization.
You know what was the last time Germany imposed "privatization" on a country?
1990, GDR
You might remember the scandals from the trust administration back then. Leuna Refinery, Elf, just an example. You might know what state the industry that was privatized back then is in now, 25 years later.
Also the contract includes the obligation to follow every FUTURE conditions that may come.
[QUOTE=Muggi;48192997]The intention of the vote was double sided; on one hand, if the greeks voted yes the government could deny responsibility for all the reforms and all that. The no vote, as it happend to end up being, was supposed to give the Tsipras a stronger mandate in the negotiations, giving him the ability to wave around the "democracy" card as a way to get what he wanted. What he failed to realize was that the EU was tired of his, and by extension Greeces, shit. All the no vote did was pissing of even more people at the negotiation table, and it is hard to a favorable deal when you don't have any more friends to back you up.[/QUOTE]
I think they mostly got tired of the delay it caused, because passing each day of (near-)illiquidity puts Greece into a worse position economically.
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48193114][url]http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-07/tsipras-grexit-griechenland-merkel[/url]
"reform laws"
Privatization.
You know what was the last time Germany imposed "privatization" on a country?
1990, GDR
You might remember the scandals from the trust administration back then. Leuna Refinery, Elf, just an example. You might know what state the industry that was privatized back then is in now, 25 years later.
Also the contract includes the obligation to follow every FUTURE conditions that may come.[/QUOTE]
You're sidestepping the question.
Nobody except the German ruling parties likes the deal.
The industry doesn't, other parties don't. Greece doesn't.
France as the second biggest power in the EU got completely fucked, Italy feels fucked and left alone.
This deal is a political charade of Merkel.
"look, we did something"
lol '' systemic tax evasion ''
i mean if the media repeats something enough it must be true guys
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48193112]I think the greek government should cease to exist and the EU should split the country up into little districts which they can manage the finances of externally[/QUOTE]
For some reason I don't think the people of Greece would appreciate that. Or the international community for that matter.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;48193538]lol '' systemic tax evasion ''
i mean if the media repeats something enough it must be true guys[/QUOTE]
yes you're right, this is definitely a media conspiracy and [URL="http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21565657-greek-tax-dodgers-are-being-outed-national-sport-no-more"]definitely not an ongoing, well reported[/URL] [URL="http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2014/02/corruption-greece"]and documented problem[/URL] [URL="http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303828304575179921909783864"]that was around[/URL] [URL="http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/corruption-index"]for years[/URL] [URL="http://www.voxeu.org/article/cutting-corruption-tax-way-out-greece"]and years[/URL].
[QUOTE=draugur;48191593]Hey Greece, this is your own fault. Go be mad at your own government and tax evading citizens instead and maybe you'll get something done.[/QUOTE]
They did do something, they elected a different government. Where have you been?
Hardly surprising a left leaning party has no spine to take the consequences of their actions, should have told the EU to fuck off and build up their economy with the assistance of others.
Now they'll get an even worse deal and just further spiral down into the situation they're already in.
Some snippets from Varoufakis' blog, up to you whether you want to believe him or not. I personally don't think he's lying, and that scares me.
[QUOTE]let us agree on three or four important reforms that we agree upon, like the tax system, like VAT, and let’s implement them immediately. And you relax the restrictions on liqiuidity from the ECB. You want a comprehensive agreement – let’s carry on negotiating – and in the meantime let us introduce these reforms in parliament by agreement between us and you.
And they said “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.” And then of course a few months later they would leak to the media that we had not reformed the country and that we were wasting time! And so… [chuckles] we were set up, in a sense, in an important sense.
So by the time the liquidity almost ran out completely, and we were in default, or quasi-default, to the IMF, they introduced their proposals, which were absolutely impossible… totally non-viable and toxic. So they delayed and then came up with the kind of proposal you present to another side when you don’t want an agreement.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]It’s not that it didn’t go down well – it’s that there was point blank refusal to engage in economic arguments. Point blank. … You put forward an argument that you’ve really worked on – to make sure it’s logically coherent – and you’re just faced with blank stares. It is as if you haven’t spoken. What you say is independent of what they say. You might as well have sung the Swedish national anthem – you’d have got the same reply. And that’s startling, for somebody who’s used to academic debate. … The other side always engages. Well there was no engagement at all. It was not even annoyance, it was as if one had not spoken.[/QUOTE]
Considering that the apparently when asked to speak the truth, first thing Alexander Stubb (finnish finmin) said was a tirade on how the Greeks couldn't reform for half a century. Not sensible things, propositions and finer economic points, [B]an angry rant[/B]. We're run by amateurs.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8[/media]
They basic spent more than they get .. and then had to spent more to pay the debts.
Even if Greece's tax evasion problem is not far below average, those other countries do not have the current issues of Greece. If it's a problem for them, it needs to be fixed, regardless of what other countries are doing.
[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48193899']Some snippets from Varoufakis' blog, up to you whether you want to believe him or not. I personally don't think he's lying, and that scares me.
Considering that the apparently when asked to speak the truth, first thing Alexander Stubb (finnish finmin) said was a tirade on how the Greeks couldn't reform for half a century. Not sensible things, propositions and finer economic points, [B]an angry rant[/B]. We're run by amateurs.[/QUOTE]
Of course, everything Varoufakis says is truth and other just say shit and lie. Greece government didn't do anything wrong and should be praised for fucking the whole country.
[QUOTE=nask;48194578]Of course, everything Varoufakis says is truth and other just say shit and lie. Greece government didn't do anything wrong and should be praised for fucking the whole country.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say anything about others "saying shit and lieing". In fact, no one has come out to deny the rumors surrounding the negotiations.
So you're taking it personal I presume? Notwithstanding Varoufakis wasn't even present at the negotiations (as he is not part of the greek government anymore), the Stubb rumor comes from the Financial Times. Maybe your country constantly being showered with praise by internet denizens has left you a bit... sensitive to criticism? Or even the rumor that one of your elected officials could possibly do wrong.
Annex Greece.
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