[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48195037']I didn't say anything about others "saying shit and lieing". In fact, no one has come out to deny the rumors surrounding the negotiations.
So you're taking it personal I presume? Notwithstanding Varoufakis wasn't even present at the negotiations (as he is not part of the greek government anymore), the Stubb rumor comes from the Financial Times. Maybe your country constantly being showered with praise by internet denizens has left you a bit... sensitive to criticism? Or even the rumor that one of your elected officials could possibly do wrong.[/QUOTE]
Possibly wrong about what? Greece has had plenty of problems, otherwise they wouldn't be at this stage. Just because miniscule amount of people might say Finland is "ok" on the internet doesn't really affect me, but throwing money into a blackhole does.
[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48193899']Considering that the apparently when asked to speak the truth, first thing Alexander Stubb (finnish finmin) said was a tirade on how the Greeks couldn't reform for half a century. Not sensible things, propositions and finer economic points, [B]an angry rant[/B]. We're run by amateurs.[/QUOTE]
This part of your post doesn't seem to be quote from anywhere, but shows your own personal opinion. Ignoring that Greece economy was improving prior to 2015 certainly says something about the new government. Blaming EU instead of the current government is ludicrous.
[QUOTE=nask;48195143] Possibly wrong about what? Greece has had plenty of problems, otherwise they wouldn't be at this stage. Just because miniscule amount of people might say Finland is "ok" on the internet doesn't really affect me, but throwing money into a blackhole does.[/QUOTE]
Possibly wrong about acting like a professional. He wasn't at a pub or at dinner with friends, he was at what probably was the most important even of the last decade and he was supposed to negotiate, be diplomatic, detached and professional, not go on angry rant on the presumed continued profligacy of the greek state, which is completely illogical since Tsipras had nothing to do with it up until 5 months ago and frankly, beyond idiotic from a diplomatic point of view. He made himself and by proxy the entire pro-Grexit side look like angry chipmunks.
I won't even bother challenging the "blackhole" logic because it's clear that people who think like you are well past economic sense and well into [I]neo-liberalism is a religion territory[/I].
[QUOTE]This part of your post doesn't seem to be quote from anywhere, but shows your own personal opinion. Ignoring that Greece economy was improving prior to 2015 certainly says something about the new government. Blaming EU instead of the current government is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]
Oh my, my post is showing my own personal opinion, what a surprise. Yeah, my own personal opinion is that if the rumors are true, your finmin and Miro Cerar acted like amateurs. I never blamed the EU as an institution (especially considering that the EU Parliament and the Commission were trying to avoid a Grexit= nor have I ever said that it isn't mismanagement on Greece's side that caused the crisis. But obviously the very idea of thinking that a smidge of responsability may lie on someone else other than Greece is anathema because then you'd have to admit fallibility and we can't have that.
Again, saying that the Greece economy was improving... I don't even. There are no words. Do we live in the same world? It seems to me that sometimes some countries live in a parallel reality where a couple of fluctuating decimal points for some months in a country that's free falling into third world status constitutes an improvement.
Shows how much the EU cares about sovereignty and democracy.
[QUOTE=Sableye;48191572]I can't believe the IMF even has legal basis for taking another governments sovernty, I hope the US uses its leverage in the IMF to stop this but I doubt it[/QUOTE]
This shit has historically been considered grounds for war.
[QUOTE=draugur;48191843]Alright so then I guess we've reached "big pharma" levels of conspiracy and thus no constructive conversation can be had between the two of us. I'll gladly exit the thread then.[/QUOTE]
Countries protect their biggest industries (IE their banks).
Thats hardly conspiratorial.
[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;48193899']
Considering that the apparently when asked to speak the truth, first thing Alexander Stubb (finnish finmin) said was a tirade on how the Greeks couldn't reform for half a century. Not sensible things, propositions and finer economic points, [B]an angry rant[/B]. We're run by amateurs.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by calling him an amateur based on a partial misquote from an FT article. They were asked to "let off steam" on one another by telling the truth, after 5 hours of discussion. And let off steam Stubb and many others did.
You keep using all these cheap shots and rude rhetorics to support your arguments.. Here's a link to the FT article. [url]http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f908e534-2942-11e5-8db8-c033edba8a6e.html[/url]
[editline]13th July 2015[/editline]
Oh there's a paywall.. Sorry about that. I'd save it with other means if I weren't on an ipad.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48191624]How does that give them the right to further screw the country over?[/QUOTE]
Greece already fucked itself over. In the long run the EU is doing the good thing. For both the EU and Greece.
It's just that Democracy and "the long run" usually don't go together all that well.
The 50 billion collateral is hilarious, its estimated they only have about 12 billion of assets they can feasibly privatise, where are they going to get the rest from?
[editline]14th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=draugur;48191843]Alright so then I guess we've reached "big pharma" levels of conspiracy and thus no constructive conversation can be had between the two of us. I'll gladly exit the thread then.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, so conspiratorial protecting your banks through bailouts, like the rest of the world did! The entire bailout was to help the German, French and Italian banks already on the edge of collapse following the recession from taking losses of billions from bad debts in Greece. This isn't conspiratorial, I think most non-governmental commentators would take this stance to a greater or lesser extent.
[QUOTE=tjaze;48193020]On the point of tax evasion, I read somewhere that you are able to avoid the housing tax if your house is unfinished. So you basically see loads of buildings still in construction (mostly without roofs) with people living in it and also having no intention of finishing the house so they don't have to pay the tax.[/QUOTE]
I had a greek aquintance explain the method they use to me. Basically the whole building is pretty much complete. But there's usually a small section with exposed rebar somewhere and as a result the final administrative inspection cannot consider the building complete (or fit for habitation)
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48198459]The 50 billion collateral is hilarious, its estimated they only have about 12 billion of assets they can feasibly privatise, where are they going to get the rest from?
[editline]14th July 2015[/editline]
Yeah, so conspiratorial protecting your banks through bailouts, like the rest of the world did! The entire bailout was to help the German, French and Italian banks already on the edge of collapse following the recession from taking losses of billions from bad debts in Greece. This isn't conspiratorial, I think most non-governmental commentators would take this stance to a greater or lesser extent.[/QUOTE]
That's also why it's the Euro zone which are partially guaranteeing said collateral.
[QUOTE=headshotter;48198083]Shows how much the EU cares about sovereignty and democracy.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, this isn't as much a sovereignty matter as greek knowing it actually has to submit to an agreement. It would implode otherwise as no one would be willing to lend them anything. It would be seen as a huge breach of faith.
Doesn't Austerity also lower the overall GPD of the government?
[QUOTE=Reshy;48210368]Doesn't Austerity also lower the overall GPD of the government?[/QUOTE]
GDP is for an economy, not a government. Government spending is part of Aggregate Demand (which is part of how in economic theory you work out GDP). Cutting government spending will decrease GDP as a result, but the amount by which this will happen is debatable, due to something called the negative multiplier effect. The multiplier effect is when an increase in Government Spending results in a proportionately bigger increase in GDP. The negative multiplier effect is the opposite occurring when Government Spending is cut. The size of the negative multiplier effect was changed a few years ago by the IMF, who modified it from around 0.5-0.7 to a new estimate of 0.9-1.7, meaning that following a cut of 1% to government spending, there will be a 0.9-1.7% fall in GDP. Despite this, because the Eurozone is desperate for their interest payments and for austerity not to be shown as the fraud it is, they refuse to actually allow a Keynesian approach to fiscal policy.
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