Teacher, 43, 'gave her 8th grade student oral sex in her classroom' - Is the kid lucky? You decide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44351140]If I understand you, you said that a 16 year old should be allowed to have sex with someone up to 18 but not beyond. I assumed your reasoning for this was that rape or coercive sex would be less likely with a smaller age difference. I am asking why you think a 16 year old should be able to have sex with an 18 year old but not with someone over 18 because as far as I can tell the same risks and power imbalances would be present in both cases.[/QUOTE] How are the same power imbalances present in 16-18 as in 16-25? There is a very big developmental difference between a 25-year-old and a 16-year-old. A 25-year-old can make an informed decision about having sex far more readily than a 16-year-old can.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351155]How are the same power imbalances present in 16-18 as in 16-25? There is a very big developmental difference between a 25-year-old and a 16-year-old. A 25-year-old can make an informed decision about having sex far more readily than a 16-year-old can.[/QUOTE] Yes just as there can be a big developmental difference between two people of the same age but I don’t see why developmental difference is inherently a bad thing. The point is that in both cases exploitation is possible but not guaranteed. I agree that a 25 year old would be able to exploit a 16 year old but he would also be able to exploit an 18 year old or a 30 year old. I think the problem is that potential for exploitation is being treated the same as actual exploitation when there is an age difference involved.

This is the most disgusting thread ever. Remember, statutory rape is okay as long as the rapist is an older, attractive woman!! I, a white teenager who has never experienced sexual assault or spoke with someone who has, would have totally done that! Here's a gross description of what I would have done!!! Thanks, South Park! You taught me everything I need to know.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44351200]Yes just as there can be a big developmental difference between two people of the same age but I don’t see why developmental difference is inherently a bad thing. The point is that in both cases exploitation is possible but not guaranteed. I agree that a 25 year old would be able to exploit a 16 year old but he would also be able to exploit an 18 year old or a 30 year old. I think the problem is that potential for exploitation is being treated the same as actual exploitation when there is an age difference involved.[/QUOTE] There may be a developmental difference between two 16-year-olds but it's pretty much guaranteed to be less than with a 25-year-old. The age difference is not potential for exploitation, it is exploitative by nature. [editline]25th March 2014[/editline] Sure a 25-year-old can exploit an 18-year-old. A 40-year-old could exploit a 20-year-old. The point is you have to pick an age when you think it's reasonable to expect a person to be able to make decisions autonomously and I think 18 is a reasonable age.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351227]There may be a developmental difference between two 16-year-olds but it's pretty much guaranteed to be less than with a 25-year-old. The age difference is not potential for exploitation, it is exploitative by nature.[/QUOTE] Why is it exploitative by nature? I agree there is the potential for exploitation but I do not see why it must always occur when one person is beneath x age and one person is above x age. Can a man with a gun not date an unarmed woman? Having power and exercising power is not the same thing.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44351262]Why is it exploitative by nature? I agree there is the potential for exploitation but I do not see why it must always occur when one person is beneath x age and one person is above x age. Can a man with a gun not date an unarmed woman? Having power and exercising power is not the same thing.[/QUOTE] That analogy is very poor, and your reasoning works just as well for sex with a 6-year-old as with a 16-year-old. It is exploitative because you have a person who is just becoming a sexual creature and doesn't have a handle on their body or emotions having sex with a person who has reached maturity. A mature person can make a rational and informed decision to have sex while a 16-year-old cannot as readily make a rational choice. The older person is exploiting the naivety of the younger by having sex. The 16-year-old cannot be sure at the time that the choice to have sex was a rational one whereas the 25-year-old can, and they are exploiting that fact to get something they can be sure they want. You can't choose not to exploit a 6-year-old when you have sex with them, they don't know better. The sex is exploitation in itself. Similarly with a 16-year-old (only to a lesser degree).

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351316]That analogy is very poor, and your reasoning works just as well for sex with a 6-year-old as with a 16-year-old. It is exploitative because you have a person who is just becoming a sexual creature and doesn't have a handle on their body or emotions having sex with a person who has reached maturity. A mature person can make a rational and informed decision to have sex while a 16-year-old cannot as readily make a rational choice. The older person is exploiting the naivety of the younger by having sex. The 16-year-old cannot be sure at the time that the choice to have sex was a rational one whereas the 25-year-old can, and they are exploiting that fact to get something they can be sure they want. You can't choose not to exploit a 6-year-old when you have sex with them, they don't know better. The sex is exploitation in itself. Similarly with a 16-year-old (only to a lesser degree).[/QUOTE] Firstly to say that someone age 16 is "just becoming a sexual creature" is ridiculous, they may have started and finished puberty by this point. Also rationality does not develop linearly at the same rate in all people or even to the same extent. There are likely some 16 year olds who are more rational than some 25 year olds. Also sex is almost always for irrational emotional reasons, other than when deliberately trying to impregnate someone most people do not have sex for rational reasons regardless of their age. Finally why separates sex from all other decisions? Based on your logic it would follow that doing anything with someone under your magic number of 18 is exploitation because they are supposedly unable to fully grasp all of the consequences.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44351422]Firstly to say that someone age 16 is "just becoming a sexual creature" is ridiculous, they may have started and finished puberty by this point. Also rationality does not develop linearly at the same rate in all people or even to the same extent. There are likely some 16 year olds who are more rational than some 25 year olds. Also sex is almost always for irrational emotional reasons, other than when deliberately trying to impregnate someone most people do not have sex for rational reasons regardless of their age. Finally why separates sex from all other decisions? Based on your logic it would follow that doing anything with someone under your magic number of 18 is exploitation because they are supposedly unable to fully grasp all of the consequences.[/QUOTE] I don't pretend that everyone develops at the same rate but I also don't think the difference is nearly as radical as you make it out to be. I certainly don't believe there are 16-year-olds who are more mentally and emotionally mature than 25-year-olds except possibly in the most extreme cases. And sex isn't separated from all other things. There are tons of things kids can't legally do until they reach adulthood already so I'm not sure why you seem to think sex is being singled out. It doesn't matter a whit whether most people have sex for rational reasons, that's their choice, but the difference is they have the capacity to make a truly informed decision.

There's something I don't understand, did the kid get held back a year or two? The news says 8th grader but there's no source if it's a high school or middle school. I'm 15 and I'm in 10th grade

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351579]I don't pretend that everyone develops at the same rate but I also don't think the difference is nearly as radical as you make it out to be. I certainly don't believe there are 16-year-olds who are more mentally and emotionally mature than 25-year-olds except possibly in the most extreme cases. And sex isn't separated from all other things. There are tons of things kids can't legally do until they reach adulthood already so I'm not sure why you seem to think sex is being singled out. It doesn't matter a whit whether most people have sex for rational reasons, that's their choice, but the difference is they have the capacity to make a truly informed decision.[/QUOTE] Why can't a 15 year old make an informed decision? Any information that they require could be given to them and I don't think any of it so complicated that they would be unable to comprehend it. I feel I should also point out that the vast majority of 18 year olds are not fully mentally developed, in fact most people don't fully cognitively develop until their mid to late 20s. ( [url]http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/09/23/brain-wiring-continues-into-young-adulthood/29719.html[/url]) If it is your belief that to have "the capacity to make a truly informed decision" you must be fully mentally mature an age of consent of 25+ would be more appropriate than 18. 18 makes no more sense than 16 in regards to cognitive development.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44351685]Why can't a 15 year old make an informed decision? Any information that they require could be given to them and I don't think any of it so complicated that they would be unable to comprehend it. I feel I should also point out that the vast majority of 18 year olds are not fully mentally developed, in fact most people don't fully cognitively develop until their mid to late 20s. ( [url]http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/09/23/brain-wiring-continues-into-young-adulthood/29719.html[/url]) If it is your belief that to have "the capacity to make a truly informed decision" you must be fully mentally mature an age of consent of 25+ would be more appropriate than 18. 18 makes no more sense than 16 in regards to cognitive development.[/QUOTE] You don't have to be 100% developed to the end to be able to make a reasonably informed decision. I may not be fully developed but I'm sure as shit [I]significantly[/I] more mature in every aspect of my life than I was at 16. I had sex ed classes as a kid and they weren't hard. I understood what sex was and the risks involved but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have pretty much just fucked anything that offered itself to me with very little consideration for risk. Knowing and understanding and being likely to actually think about it and make the right choice for yourself are different things. But this is beside the point. Once again, it's not about whether you're fully developed or whether you're [I]going[/I] to make a smart choice. It's about the difference in development and capability to make smart decisions. 16-year-olds are gonna bang anyway and I'm not saying we should stop them (just teach them how to do it safely and hope they listened). I do, however, think we should be disallowing them to have sex with people far more sexually and emotionally mature than they are. Which is certainly the case with a 43-year-old and a 15-year-old.

Threads like this in Facepunch: Five people agree it's wrong. Teenagers cry "15 is old enough to do what you want, fight the power!" Ephebophiles agree. Clusterfuck ensues.

When I was 15 I don't think I was very impressionable or a vulnerable child. I don't think all students in that position would be damaged for life either. They're practically young adults at that point, they know what's right and wrong (mostly). Hell, I imagine some of the people in this thread saying good for him are 15/16 but that's a different matter. However, she did abuse her position and have sexual relations with an underage student and should be punished The whole "Is the kid lucky?" argument is stupid. Of course he wasn't, but that doesn't mean he was a helpless lamb not knowing what he was getting into. It may or may not have negative effects on him in the future but we don't know him or the future, so frankly we can't give a definite answer here.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351754]You don't have to be 100% developed to the end to be able to make a reasonably informed decision. I may not be fully developed but I'm sure as shit [I]significantly[/I] more mature in every aspect of my life than I was at 16. I had sex ed classes as a kid and they weren't hard. I understood what sex was and the risks involved but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have pretty much just fucked anything that offered itself to me with very little consideration for risk. Knowing and understanding and being likely to actually think about it and make the right choice for yourself are different things. But this is beside the point. Once again, it's not about whether you're fully developed or whether you're [I]going[/I] to make a smart choice. It's about the difference in development and capability to make smart decisions. 16-year-olds are gonna bang anyway and I'm not saying we should stop them (just teach them how to do it safely and hope they listened). I do, however, think we should be disallowing them to have sex with people far more sexually and emotionally mature than they are. Which is certainly the case with a 43-year-old and a 15-year-old.[/QUOTE] Why do you not say the same thing about 24 year olds? Why is the partial cognitive development of a 15 year old insufficient to consent to sex but the partial cognitive development of an 18-24 year olds is sufficient? What method did you use for deciding at what point within cognitive development a person is able to fully comprehend sex and not be exploited by someone older? A 30 year old is far more emotionally and mentally mature than a 20 year old and you approve of this and yet you don't approve of a 20 year old in a relationship a 16 year old. How exactly did you quantify this difference and then decide how much of a difference is appropriate and how much is inappropriate? Because as far as I can tell everything you said has been completely arbitrary. Your decision about what age is acceptable is just as arbitrary as your decision about what age-difference is acceptable.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44351220]This is the most disgusting thread ever.[/QUOTE] You say this in every single thread about this subject. You'd think that by now we would have reached a creep-singularity with all the times you've claimed that one of these threads is "the creepiest/most disgusting thread ever". But yeah, this is pretty damn creepy. Some people here seriously need to get laid so they can get their minds off of how "cool" it is to get fucked by your teacher.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44351896]Why do you not say the same thing about 24 year olds? Why is the partial cognitive development of a 15 year old insufficient to consent to sex but the partial cognitive development of an 18-24 year olds is sufficient? What method did you use for deciding at what point within cognitive development a person is able to fully comprehend sex and not be exploited by someone older? A 30 year old is far more emotionally and mentally mature than a 20 year old and you approve of this and yet you don't approve of a 20 year old in a relationship a 16 year old. How exactly did you quantify this difference and then decide how much of a difference is appropriate and how much is inappropriate? Because as far as I can tell everything you said has been completely arbitrary. Your decision about what age is acceptable is just as arbitrary as your decision about what age-difference is acceptable.[/QUOTE] Of course it's arbitrary to some degree, I never disputed that nor will I. It comes down to my personal experience with how I remember the age and the maturity of people I see at the ages these days. You might think 16 year olds are mature enough to have sex with whoever they want and that's valid enough, I just don't agree (we haven't really been disputing exact ages anyway, mostly the principle's behind it in general). I don't think psychology is going to make my argument as quantifiable as I might like any time soon, but it doesn't matter. I'm not pretending it's perfectly objective. I might agree that post-puberty is maybe a biologically reasonable time but it's also unenforceable and pretty much impossible to determine before you have sex with someone.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351964]Of course it's arbitrary to some degree, I never disputed that nor will I. It comes down to my personal experience with how I remember the age and the maturity of people I see at the ages these days. You might think 16 year olds are mature enough to have sex with whoever they want and that's valid enough, I just don't agree (we haven't really been disputing exact ages anyway, mostly the principle's behind it in general). I don't think psychology is going to make my argument as quantifiable as I might like any time soon, but it doesn't matter. I'm not pretending it's perfectly objective.[/QUOTE] Well fair enough we can agree to disagree. My opinion on this matter has changed a number of times and it will likely change many more times. I don't think there is an objective answer for what the correct age of consent is, which might explain why it varies so much around the world. I am increasingly inclined towards a sort of "soft" age of consent which is used only as a guideline and other factors based on maturity and intelligence would also be considered. Though I think such a system would be difficult to enforce.

We will never know if he was coerced to do these things by her power as his teacher or if he really wanted to, so we will never know if he was "lucky" in that sense. The power she holds over him is the power to write him up, the power to suspend him, the power to fail him, and the power to generally influence other teachers, not to mention the unknown. I'd say that most students would be slightly afraid of a teacher who is willing to have sex with them. however, I can say without a doubt that he's NOT lucky because if he did like it, he got his teacher/lover fired, and if he didn't like it he was essentially raped and either way he's got a lot of presumably unwanted attention at the school now.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44351063]Personally I think 16 year olds should be able to consent to sex to people within a limit (up to and including age 19? I dunno) and then 18 should make it universal. Plus a 14-year-old and a 15-year-old having sex wouldn't be prosecuted etc., smaller exceptions like that. Basically it's complicated shit.[/QUOTE]You summed up Minnesotan consent laws. Except there's one more detail; if the older participant is in a position of power over the younger (teacher, police, etc.) the younger must be 18 regardless of how old the older one is.

[QUOTE=Jitterz;44350436]Id imagine banging some of my teachers all day long when I was 15.[/QUOTE] So what? You were a hormonal teenager going through puberty. If a fully grown adult in a position of authority exploits that in order to get their rocks off they are doing something criminal.

I'm surprised that nobody posted "Nice." yet.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44351220] I, a [B]white[/B] teenager who has never experienced sexual assault or spoke with someone who has, would have totally done that![/QUOTE] can we just take a moment to look beyond the extremely dumb post and appreciate the overt racism

[QUOTE=Mikemaximum;44353164]I'm surprised that nobody posted "Nice." yet.[/QUOTE] You must have missed it, but here you go. "Nice."

[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;44353251]You must have missed it, but here you go. "Nice."[/QUOTE] No, the south park video!

[QUOTE=Mikemaximum;44353266]No, the south park video![/QUOTE] That's ban material, so yeah.

[QUOTE=frozensoda;44353018]We will never know if he was coerced to do these things by her power as his teacher or if he really wanted to, so we will never know if he was "lucky" in that sense. The power she holds over him is the power to write him up, the power to suspend him, the power to fail him, and the power to generally influence other teachers, not to mention the unknown. I'd say that most students would be slightly afraid of a teacher who is willing to have sex with them. however, I can say without a doubt that he's NOT lucky because if he did like it, he got his teacher/lover fired, and if he didn't like it he was essentially raped and either way he's got a lot of presumably unwanted attention at the school now.[/QUOTE] He probably wasn't coerced into it, but you have to put an age of consent somewhere and the teacher knew what it was. Honestly it's her own stupid fault.

If the teacher was around 18-25 Maybe as always I'll take news like this with a pinch of salt.

Isn't most the damage done by society's reaction to such events?

I'm sorry, but after clicking on the link with high hopes, and seeing her face... He should have fucked her from the rear LOL

[QUOTE=davidrb18;44350257]Just because it will not be considered consensual in a court room doesn't mean it really isn't.[/QUOTE] Except: 1) The teacher is in a position of power, and has strong influence over the student. 2) The student is young enough to be impressionable by someone in a position of power. If you're arguing that the kid said yes, then yeah, no shit. Doesn't mean it is any less of an abuse of power by the teacher.