Bernie Sanders— the only Jewish candidate— accused of antisemitism by top Israeli official
116 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50093783]For the same reason every single other American is forced to endorse things they don't want to via tax spending.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and I think I do have a right to say I don't appreciate it. Whatever the specific detail in question may be. I think I can make a pretty legit case when it comes to foreign military spending since we spend trillions on the military in general.
Do you seriously think that Israeli officers just look at a map, say fuck it, and point at a random house to bomb? The reason why the IDF keeps on striking these houses is to destroy the rockets that are being stored in them.
Also, could you not post paywalled sources? It says I have to pay to read the article.
Besides, the patients you were so concerned about got out fine
[QUOTE]Israel bombed Gaza’s Al-Wafa Hospital from the air on Wednesday, saying it was being used as a Hamas command center and rocket-launching site.
The hospital was empty, after its patients and medical staff had left on July 17.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.606912"]http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.606912[/URL]
15 minutes is plenty of time considering the 15 second warnings that Israeli civilians had when Hamas launched rockets at them.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093719]but it's still about a few cents off of your paycheck
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
this is a really stupid way of looking at financial support but alright[/QUOTE]
I don't care if it's a penny or a dollar, it's my money and I want it redirected to my own country, not yours.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50093783]For the same reason every single other American is forced to endorse things they don't want to via tax spending.[/QUOTE]
We however have a right not to endorse states that commit human rights abuses.
[url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/29/patrick-leahy-seeks-probe-israels-gross-violations/[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leahy_Law[/url]
[quote]The Leahy Law or Leahy amendment is a U.S. human rights law that prohibits the U.S. Department of State and Department of Defense from providing military assistance to foreign military units that violate human rights with impunity.[1] It is named after its principal sponsor, Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont.[2][/quote]
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093792]Yeah and I think I do have a right to say I don't appreciate it. Whatever the specific detail in question may be. I think I can make a pretty legit case when it comes to foreign military spending since we spend trillions on the military in general.[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely right that you have a right to voice your opinion and vote on someone who will represent them best, just like people who have opposing opinions.
So because they believed rockets were being stored in a hospital, they warned it, got everyone out, then blew it up.
Wouldn't, you know, actually looking and seeing if there were rockets there had been a better idea? Because blowing up a hospital is a fucking terrible thing to do, even with the proper reasoning.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50093806]You are absolutely right that you have a right to voice your opinion and vote on someone who will represent them best, just like people who have opposing opinions.[/QUOTE]
That's true. I just wish that anyone who spoke out against Israel didn't suffer massive character assassination and suppression.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50093777]Whats really stupid is taking my tax money, no matter how large or small, to support your country and the shitty things it does and excuse it away as if it's nothing.[/QUOTE]
yeah alright but supporting states like afghanistan, russia, uganda, iraq and a plethora of other failed/failing states with corrupt government is a-ok.
welcome to taxes. you pay your money to the state and it's the state's business to decide what it spends it on. it's not "your money", it's the governments money. and yes, it does matter how small the sum is, because proportion is everything.
your country values imaginary power projection and waging wars (that cost you trillions of money you don't even have) above supporting your poverty sector for example. giving israel chump change to further progress military technology is fucking minuscule to the point of irrelevancy compared to everything else you waste your money on.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093818]yeah alright but supporting states like afghanistan, russia, uganda, iraq and a plethora of other failed/failing states with corrupt government is a-ok. [/QUOTE]
Do you really think any of us support those expenditures either? Quit trying to justify our embarassingly pointless money funneling to your state.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093818]yeah alright but supporting states like afghanistan, russia, uganda, iraq and a plethora of other failed/failing states with corrupt government is a-ok.
welcome to taxes. you pay your money to the state and it's the state's business to decide what it spends it on. it's not "your money", it's the governments money. and yes, it does matter how small the sum is, because proportion is everything.
your country values imaginary power projection and waging wars (that cost you trillions of money you don't even have) above supporting your poverty sector for example. giving israel chump change to further progress military technology is fucking minuscule to the point of irrelevancy compared to everything else you waste your money on.[/QUOTE]
And this is the attitude that furthers my want to see you not receive my tax money.
Thank you for furthering the idea you're a country that bites the hand that feeds it.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50093814]So because they believed rockets were being stored in a hospital, they warned it, got everyone out, then blew it up.
Wouldn't, you know, actually looking and seeing if there were rockets there had been a better idea? Because blowing up a hospital is a fucking terrible thing to do, even with the proper reasoning.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Hamas would allow Israel to go in for an inspection. It would be extremely dangerous for Israel to attack it with infantry. Israel relies on the reports of spies inside Hamas and Palestinian informants to know where to attack.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093818]yeah alright but supporting states like afghanistan, russia, uganda, iraq and a plethora of other failed/failing states with corrupt government is a-ok.
welcome to taxes. you pay your money to the state and it's the state's business to decide what it spends it on. it's not "your money", it's the governments money. and yes, it does matter how small the sum is, because proportion is everything.
your country values imaginary power projection and waging wars (that cost you trillions of money you don't even have) above supporting your poverty sector for example. giving israel chump change to further progress military technology is fucking minuscule to the point of irrelevancy compared to everything else you waste your money on.[/QUOTE]"Chump change"?
The US has, in fact, given more aid to Israel than it has to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined—which have a total population of over a billion people.
Israel receives more than half of all US global military aid.
While there other gross abusers of human rights who receive aid too, it does not compare to the quantity to Israel's generous sum.
I'm prett Pro-Israel but I believe Israel has gone beyond needing financial support,they can defend themselves adequetly enough against attack from their neighbhors.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093849]I don't think Hamas would allow Israel to go in for an inspection. It would be extremely dangerous for Israel to attack it with infantry. Israel relies on the reports of spies inside Hamas and Palestinian informants to know where to attack.[/QUOTE]
Well there's gotta be something done other than just do the reverse of what the Palestinians did but with 100 times more precision with directed artillery and aircraft bombing. That's why 7 out of 10 people killed by the IDF are civilians.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093831]Do you really think any of us support those expenditures either? Quit trying to justify our embarassingly pointless money funneling to your state.[/QUOTE]
you do realize that your "pointless money funneling" helped create the Iron dome, the manufacturing of which is going to be split with the US and will create jobs in the US.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093876]you do realize that your "pointless money funneling" helped create the Iron dome, the manufacturing of which is going to be split with the US and will create jobs in the US.[/QUOTE]
I really could not care less about this. There are other ways that don't involve billions going to Israel that would help the economy more.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093876]you do realize that your "pointless money funneling" helped create the Iron dome, the manufacturing of which is going to be split with the US and will create jobs in the US.[/QUOTE]
You mean jobs for defense contractors. When someone talks about jobs being created from new technology, particularly highly specialized technology, it might as well not exist. This is not helping the US economy. It will only help those aligned with the military.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50093858]"Chump change"?
The US has, in fact, given more aid to Israel than it has to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined—which have a total population of over a billion people.
Israel receives more than half of all US global military aid.
While there other gross abusers of human rights who receive aid too, it does not compare to the quantity to Israel's generous sum.[/QUOTE]
maybe because israel is a world-leading technological and industrial powerhouse that consistently pushes the envelope in a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries]variety of sectors[/url] while working together with the americans?
there are other factors to consider when looking at foreign aid, people thinking it works like literally giving cash to a country to do whatever it wants with it are gullible and to be honest ignorant, because it doesn't work that way.
there are certain conditions
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations#United_States_aid[/url]
[quote]Seventy-four percent of these funds must be spent on the acquisition of US defense equipment, services, and training. Thus, "United States military aid to Israel is seen by many as a subsidy for U.S. industries", according to Kenneth M. Pollack.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093876]you do realize that your "pointless money funneling" helped create the Iron dome, the manufacturing of which is going to be split with the US and will create jobs in the US.[/QUOTE]
Because the military-industrial complex needs [I]more[/I] fuel, right
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50093814]So because they believed rockets were being stored in a hospital, they warned it, got everyone out, then blew it up.
Wouldn't, you know, actually looking and seeing if there were rockets there had been a better idea? Because blowing up a hospital is a fucking terrible thing to do, even with the proper reasoning.[/QUOTE]
Come on, you don't need to know anything about counter-terrorism to know this is stupid.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093909]maybe because israel is a world-leading technological and industrial powerhouse that consistently pushes the envelope in a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries"]variety of sectors[/URL] while working together with the americans?
there are other factors to consider when looking at foreign aid, people thinking it works like literally giving cash to a country to do whatever it wants with it are gullible and to be honest ignorant, because it doesn't work that way. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093694]
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50093638][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#Recipients[/URL]
Israel almost received 3 BILLION dollars worth of economic and military aid in 2013.
That's not "a couple hundred million".[/QUOTE]
Most of that money is military aid which can [B]only be spent on the military.[/B] It doesn't come in liquid cash, it comes in vouchers. I specifically said direct cash.[/QUOTE]
So who is right here? and why should I care? There is literally no way you can actually make the argument that funneling billions into your tiny little state is more helpful than just creating economic stimulus back home.
I know that since you live in Israel you would love for us to be convinced of your bullshit because it supports your own interests, but you aren't going to make much headway.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50093942]Come on, you don't need to know anything about counter-terrorism to know this is stupid.[/QUOTE]
I know the possibility of being booby trapped is one thing, but come the fuck on, bombing a hospital? Even if it was, that is a very, very shitty thing to booby trap because it only fucks the opposition more, now where are they going to take their wounded? The new triage tent built on top of the hospitals rubble and some gurneys scavenged from the ruins?
It's also like you forget Israel also has EOD robots, why couldn't they send one in, figure out if there are booby traps or rockets inside, then either defuse or demolish depending on that assessment?
truth be told it's funny how americans think the state of israel will collapse in on itself without aid
our state is literally more economically developed than finland, france and austria for example, we can entirely sustain ourselves just fine without american aid. it's just easier to accept your aid because it's out of mutual interest and political support, and good things happen when israeli and american scientists and engineers work together.
you need us to maintain a significant power presence in the middle east, without us, it's going to cost you a lot more to maintain that same level on your own, so this dumb argument falls even harder on its face.
you helped us out a lot, about 50 years ago, when we were just laying the groundwork and paving roads, but today we really don't count on that aid much. if anything, it only holds us back from making independent decisions and acting as an independent nation. with all the shit we do, we have to consider the possibility of conflicting US interests with each step, which is a problem. the bottom line is however, we need each other equally.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50093999]truth be told it's funny how americans think the state of israel will collapse in on itself without aid
our state is literally more economically developed than finland, france and austria for example, we can entirely sustain ourselves just fine without american aid. it's just easier to accept your aid because it's out of mutual interest and political support, and good things happen when israeli and american scientists and engineers work together.
you need us to maintain a significant power presence in the middle east, without us, it's going to cost you a lot more to maintain that same level on your own, so this dumb argument falls even harder on its face.
you helped us out a lot, about 50 years ago, when we were just laying the groundwork and paving roads, but today we really don't count on that aid much. if anything, it only holds us back from making independent decisions and acting as an independent nation. with all the shit we do, we have to consider the possibility of conflicting US interests with each step, which is a problem. the bottom line is however, we need each other equally.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly why I think we shouldn't be supporting you anymore. I don't know why you think that implying that we shouldn't be wasting money on your state means your state shouldn't exist. A bit of a stretch there.
Considering the fact that the US has wasted billions upon billions in the middle east and it's cost thousands upon thousands of American lives, this is another thing no average American citizen gives a fuck about. "Maintaining a presence in the ME" has gotten us nowhere besides hundreds of radical Islamic factions, ISIS, and several collapsed states.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50093959]So who is right here? and why should I care? There is literally no way you can actually make the argument that funneling billions into your tiny little state is more helpful than just creating economic stimulus back home.
I know that since you live in Israel you would love for us to be convinced of your bullshit because it supports your own interests, but you aren't going to make much headway.[/QUOTE]
don't flatter yourself, i assure you we can do without your economic support (which you think works like a video game where you funnel cash from one sector to another), it's your political veto that we're counting on and that's not going to put food on your nations poor sector so what do you care
also "most" is the keyword.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094019]don't flatter yourself, i assure you we can do without your economic support (which you think works like a video game where you funnel cash from one sector to another), it's your political veto that we're counting on and that's not going to put food on your nations poor sector so what do you care
also "most" is the keyword.[/QUOTE]youre making a completely different argument than what aztec is talking about
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094019]don't flatter yourself, i assure you we can do without your economic support (which you think works like a video game where you funnel cash from one sector to another), it's your political veto that we're counting on and that's not going to put food on your nations poor sector so what do you care
also "most" is the keyword.[/QUOTE]
Haha, I think it's hilarious that in one post you say that the US is helping support a flourishing tech industry and in the next post you return to the fact that it's about military logistics.
And I also think it's neat that you think billions of completely wasted money couldn't potentially go to my nation's poor sector if all of our politicians weren't corrupted by your state.
[quote](which you think works like a video game where you funnel cash from one sector to another)[/quote]
I think it works like theft where your state steals money that I am working for week by week.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50093876]you do realize that your "pointless money funneling" helped create the Iron dome, the manufacturing of which is going to be split with the US and will create jobs in the US.[/QUOTE]
It's obviously going to be less beneficial to the American people than if the money was spent directly in the US.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094017]This is exactly why I think we shouldn't be supporting you anymore. I don't know why you think that implying that we shouldn't be wasting money on your state means your state shouldn't exist. A bit of a stretch there.
Considering the fact that the US has wasted billions upon billions in the middle east and it's cost thousands upon thousands of American lives, this is another thing no average American citizen gives a fuck about. "Maintaining a presence in the ME" has gotten us nowhere besides hundreds of radical Islamic factions, ISIS, and several collapsed states.[/QUOTE]
what? who said anything about my state not existing? i meant "without us" in the context of severing economical and political ties.
and whether or not US presence in the ME is a good thing or not is not my business nor is it the point. the point is that without us, it's going to cost you a fuckload more to maintain the same level of power projection in the region. and you're kidding yourself if you think the US will give up on one of the most if not THE most problematic region in the world just because israel accidentally kills a few hundred civilians in one of the worlds most dense population centers fighting an enemy that wears no uniform. all the while our next door neighborhood killed about 150,000 more civilians in half a year than we did in our entire existence put together multiplied by 20 and spawned one of the most vile and problematic terrorist organizations in recent history.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094060]what? who said anything about my state not existing? i meant "without us" in the context of severing economical and political ties.
and whether or not US presence in the ME is a good thing or not is not my business nor is it the point. the point is that without us, it's going to cost you a fuckload more to maintain the same level of power projection in the region. and you're kidding yourself if you think the US will give up on one of the most if not THE most problematic region in the world just because israel accidentally kills a few hundred civilians in one of the worlds most dense population centers fighting an enemy that wears no uniform. all the while our next door neighborhood killed about 150,000 more civilians in half a year than we did in our entire existence put together multiplied by 20 and spawned one of the most vile and problematic terrorist organizations in recent history.[/QUOTE]
[B]I've actually not made a single post in reference to Palestine at all[/B]. You seem to be projecting there. I don't support US foriegn interests in ME because their purpose is solely to fund weapons contractors (the same contractors you and svinnik have been praising up and down all over this thread) who make billions and billions on things that don't help support any tangible aspect of the US economy for the average US citizen.
I would love to rather be spending money on our infrastructure, education, technology HERE.
In my city alone we've closed 5 schools because of budget cuts to education. I wonder if any of the billions that you call chump change could have prevented that.
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